Was wandering aroung the Shot Show yesterday and came across something pretty interesting. A company in WA (Spanaway I think) had a .458 Win Mag conversion for the M1 Garand. Holds 5 rounds in the mag ( no enbloc clips) and an adjustable gas system. They claim total reliability. Looks like a Tanker garand. Might take a camera along today and take some photos.
BJB

Sounds kinda cool, other than one can't hunt with semi's in africa!
jeffe

Jeffe,
Was in Namibia last spring and the PH I was using begged me to send some Garand clips to him as he had an old Garand that he loved for a lion gun(?) but had to put it in the rack cause he didn't have clips. I sent him a half dozen. Not sure of the legality of it or not. Check out the website for the company doing the conversion: www.mcannindustries.com. Shows the .338 Garand but not the .458. Owner says he wants to take it on his next hunt in 2007???
Ciao,
BJB

I know of no African country that will allow you to import semi-auto firerams. It doesn't really matter even if they did allow the import as you can not legally export (without a license) any semi-auto from the US. So even if you could find a country that allowed the import, you can't legally take it out of the US.

Regards,

Terry

I read an article about this firm when they were building Garands in 338 WM. The figures in the article were heavily slanted in favor of their product, and it was pretty clear that the gunwriter just ran with whatever the builder told him. So I'm suspicious.

Also, do you really want to hunt dangerous game with a hot belted magnum cartridge in a gas-operated action meant for the 30-06 and last produced nearly half a century ago?


Okie John

Would certainly be interesting if the interuptor failed and one had a 5 round burst

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
Would certainly be interesting if the interuptor failed and one had a 5 round burst

Wow, talk about a kick in the wang, huh!

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
Would certainly be interesting if the interuptor failed and one had a 5 round burst

That give an entirely new meaning to
"spray and pray" :O

I haven't heard about any ban on traveling out of the USA with semi-auto firearms.

The restrictions are on the EXPORT of semi-auto military type firearms, where it's the firearm that is doing the traveling, without the hunter accompanying it.

You can still take your Remington and Browning self-loaders with you when you go to Canada or Hungary, or where ever.

Garrett

As interesting as I may find an auto loading 458 Winnie, I think its a bit of a travesty to defile a Garand like this. Garands just don't strike me as being the best for anything but a 30 caliber infantry weapon. JMHO...

quote:

Originally posted by N. Garrett:
I haven't heard about any ban on traveling out of the USA with semi-auto firearms.

The restrictions are on the EXPORT of semi-auto military type firearms, where it's the firearm that is doing the traveling, without the hunter accompanying it.

You can still take your Remington and Browning self-loaders with you when you go to Canada or Hungary, or where ever.

Garrett

Garrett,

The provisions of the Arms Export Control Act and the International Traffic in Arms Regulations forbid the export, without a license, of any item listed in the US Munitions List.

Section 123.17(c) of ITAR has a limited exception that allows a US citizen to temporarily export, without a license, not more than three nonatuomatic firearms.

Trust me, it is illegal to export any semi-auto firearm from the US unless you have an export license.

Regards,

Terry

Terry!
Does that restriction apply to shotguns? Seems that quite a few are taking smi-autos to mexico and South America. Or am I wrong on that?

465H&H

Had a garand 45 years ago and set gas cylinder back, put in a BAR 20 round mag, and if I
would have kept it,I would of went 458 when
I went to big bores..Cut magazine back to
five. Every once in a while a piece of
wire got into interrupter, and........well
you know.Ed.

Terry,
The way I understand 123, the term "nonautomatic" refers to "fully automatic"
weapons, not civilian legal "semi-automatic, self loading firearms.

Another bit of trivia, when Bill Ruger took his 44 Mag. Deerstalker to Africa he modified it to a "straight pull" action to be legal in the country he was hunting in.

I too looked at the McCann rifle at SHOT. Good workmanship. Told me price would be $2500-3000 plus the donor rifle. Bulky and chunky like the original.

International Traffic in Arms Regulations.

Sec. 123.17 Exports of firearms and ammunition.

(c) District Directors of Customs shall permit U.S. persons to export temporarily from the United States without a license not more than three nonautomatic firearms in Category I (a) of Sec.121.1 of this subchapter and not more than 1,000 cartridges therefor, provided that:
(1) A declaration by the U.S. person and an inspection by a customs officer is made;
(2) The firearms and accompanying ammunition must be with the U.S. person's baggage or effects, whether accompanied or unaccompanied (but not mailed); and
(3) They must be for that person's exclusive use and not for reexport or other transfer of ownership.



PART 121—THE UNITED STATES
MUNITIONS LIST


CATEGORY I—FIREARMS, CLOSE ASSAULT
WEAPONS AND COMBAT SHOTGUNS
*(a) Nonautomatic and semi-automatic
firearms to caliber .50 inclusive (12.7 mm).
*(b) Fully automatic firearms to .50 caliber
inclusive (12.7 mm).
*(c) Firearms or other weapons (e.g. insurgency-
counterinsurgency, close assault
weapons systems) having a special military
application regardless of caliber.
*(d) Combat shotguns. This includes any
shotgun with a barrel length less than 18
inches.

Section 121.9 Firearms.

(a) Category I includes revolvers, pistols, rifles, carbines, fully automatic rifles, submachine guns, machine pistols and machine guns to caliber .50, inclusive. It includes combat shotguns. It excludes other shotguns with barrels 18 inches or longer, BB, pellet, and muzzle loading (black powder) firearms.

(b) A firearm is a weapon not over .50 caliber which is designed to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or which may be readily converted to do so.

(c) A rifle is a shoulder firearm which can discharge a bullet through a rifled barrel 16 inches or longer.

(d) A carbine is a lightweight shoulder firearm with a barrel under 16 inches in length.

(e) A pistol is a hand-operated firearm having a chamber integral with or permanently aligned with the bore.

(f) A revolver is a hand-operated firearm with a revolving cylinder containing chambers for individual cartridges.

(g) A submachine gun, "machine pistol" or "machine gun" is a firearm originally designed to fire, or capable of being fired, fully automatically by a single pull of the trigger.


****************************************************

By definition, it does not apply to non-combat shotguns with barrels 18 inches or longer.

The term "nonautomatic" means any firearm that is not a semi-automatic or fully automatic firearm. The term "nonautomatic" makes no distinction between civilian or military type of firearms.

Regards,

Terry

So it now looks like you are not able to take your .577 doubles out of the country as they are non-automatic firearms over .50 caliber...

When did they start this rubbish? Also, what about importing on your return home? Any changes there?

I have got to go to Customs next week, I will check with them.

quote:

Originally posted by richierich1:
So it now looks like you are not able to take your .577 doubles out of the country as they are non-automatic firearms over .50 caliber...

When did they start this rubbish? Also, what about importing on your return home? Any changes there?

The over .50 caliber provision has always been in the law. Honestly, I don't know how many of the Customs officers are that well versed in the law. Generally, all that Customs ever looks at is to ensure the serial number on your 4457 matches the rifles. People take over .50 caliber rifles out of the country all the time without a problem. However, technically it is illegal.

Regards,

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I have got to go to Customs next week, I will check with them.

You might want to copy the law that I have posted above to show them. Not sure your average Customs officer is that well versed in the details.

I have, in the past, been in contact with US Customs and The Office of Defense Trade Controls for clarification on the law. So I am pretty well versed in the law as it applies to the temporary export of firearms.

Regards,

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Sounds kinda cool, other than one can't hunt with semi's in africa!
jeffe

That's very Un-American

Terry,

You are misreading the law.

You CAN take up to 3 semi-auto firearms (non-military) with you when you travel out of the country on vacation/hunting.

I checked with BATF. They do not consider traveling with firearms (provided you are RETURNING with them) to be export.

It might get interesting if you lost one overseas.

Garrett

quote:

Originally posted by N. Garrett:
I checked with BATF. They do not consider traveling with firearms (provided you are RETURNING with them) to be export.
Garrett

Garret,

Unfortunately BATF's definition of an export does not match Custom's. Customs considers that you have both exported and imported a rifle when you take it to Africa and back.

That's why, if you have a legally-owned rifle with an ivory bead you can legally export it to hunt in Africa, but it may be legally confiscated when you try to return.

I disagree with Terry on the definition of semi-auto, but my opinion does not count - only the agent in the line you are in when you return.

Listen to the bullshit spouted by the customs agents in the lines beside you. How you get treated and how the law gets interpreted has everything to do with exactly which agent you are talking to at the time, and very little about either the intent or the letter of the law!

Garrett,

BATF has no jusrisdiction over the enforcement of the AECA. That authority is vested in the Department of State, Directorate of Defense Trade Controls and further delegated to US Customs. It is the legality of the export that is in question. BATF may not care if you bring back your own guns (they do have jurisdiction over the import of firearms into the US), but it is the initial export that is in question and Customs (not BATF) will be the ones at the airport when you arrrive back in the US.

Don,

The definition of "nonautomatic" is a definition by exclusion.

A nonautomatic firearm is any firearm that is not a semi-auto, full auto, assault/military or combat shotgun. Instead of specifically listing the types of firearms you can temporarily export (bolt action , single shot, pump, etc.) they defined "nonautomatic" as any firearm other than a semi-auto, full auto, assault/military or combat shotgun.

Just to make it a bit more confusing, one has to realize that their definition of the word "firearm" is also limited, in that for these purposes, firearm does not include sporting shotguns with 18" or longer barrels, BB, pellet or black powder firearms.

Regards,

Terry

Okay now, what about hand guns (pistols and revolvers)? Does this affect them?

quote:

Section 121.9 Firearms.

(a) Category I includes revolvers, pistols...

Ok to export revolvers, but not OK to export semi-auto pistols.

Basically, the law says you can't export, without a license, any semi-autos of any kind (except for semi-auto sporting shotguns - i.e., non-combat shotguns with a barrel length of at least 18").

What we are dealing with is a really technical component of the law. I'm sure there are thousands of guys who have taken semi-autos out of the country without problems. It doesn't appear that most of the airport Customs guys either know about the intricacies of the law or they just don't enforce them. That, however, doesn't mean that you won't get caught if you try to return with a semi-auto.

Regards,

Terry

P.S.
How I became involved in all of this was several years ago. Mims Reed posted on AR that a guy he knew got his firearms confiscated at the DFW airport when he returned from Africa with 4 rifles. No one had ever heard of this before. I started researching the issue, and with my legal background, it made reading and understanding the regulations easier. I called BATF in Dallas, who said it was not their jurisdiction and told me to call Customs. I called customs and the guy had to go get a manual and read the regulations before he could answer my questions.

If you want to really hear a scary thing, the law actually requires that you make "A declaration by the U.S. person and an inspection by a customs officer is made" before you leave the US. This is not the same as a Form 4457. At your international airport of departure on the day of your flight, your are supposed to go to Customs and basically tell them that you are temporarily exporting firearms and allow them to inspect them. I have talked to the head of enforcement of the US Customs about this element of the law. He assured me that it is required. Well, no one does this, so basically we are all breaking the law every time we travel overseas with firearms. Even if you did make a declaration to a Customs officer, he doesn't give you any written confirmation of such declaration, so there would be no way to prove you actually complied with the law. Typical government crap.

Very interesting...

I'm returning to the States next week with 5 firearms. Three are pre-1899 obsolete cal. English double rifles and the other two are modern stuff, of which one was exported to me a couple of years ago from the States. I still have the documentation for that one and all the others to show where I purchased them and their dates (pre-1899) of manufacture. I have an ATF F-6 permit with all the guns listed on it. I've done this in the past (4 years ago) without problem. I've heard that things may have changed since then.

I plan to stay through the summer season working, then head back overseas next autumn. When I return I was planning on bringing a couple of them with me for hunting, but also bring a semi-auto pistol along since I have a European (CZ) gun license allowing me to own them, plus import documentation to go along with it. In the past I've done this without problem, but again that was a good 4 years ago... The ATF form F-6 allows me to import it on my return, as long as it has at least a 6" overall length or longer. So now what, I wanted to bring either a nice Sig or Browning back??? Believe it or not, they are cheaper to get and in more models in the States…

I would be interested to know if anyone has ever contested the Customs regulations. Is there any jurisprudence on this issue?

Rich,

There is a specific exemption for antique firearms.

Section 123.17
(b) District Directors of Customs shall permit the export without a license of nonautomatic firearms covered by Category I(a) of Section 121.1 of this subchapter if they were manufactured in or before 1898, or are replicas of such firearms.

But I think we are talking about two different things. The exemption to ITAR is talking about exporting firearms. It appears to me that you are talking about importing firearms from overseas that you have not previously owned in the US.

In which case you would need an import permit (unless there is also an import exemption for antique firearms). When you say you have a Form 6, it sounds like you have already gotten an import license. Are you a US citizen? If you are a nonimmigrant alien, I know there has been some recent changes in the law regarding bringing firearms into the US. Honestly, I am not very up to date on the import procedures for firearms.

Regards,

Terry

Rich,

I found this on the ATF website. It applies if you are a US citizen.


Question
Do I need a federal firearm permit to buy a gun overseas and bring it into the U.S.?

Answer
The Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms regulates the importation of firearms. They require all imports of firearms to be imported by a registered firearm dealer. This includes firearms that are new, used, inherited or antique.

If you wish to purchase a firearm overseas, you will need to make arrangements with a dealer to handle the importation. A request to import a firearm must be made on ATF's Form 6. It takes 4-6 weeks for ATF to process this form and return it to the dealer. If you have not made arrangements with a dealer to import a firearm on your behalf before you purchase one, (i.e. you buy it on the spur of the moment during a trip abroad and return to the U.S. with it in your possession), Customs will detain the weapon for 30 days, during which time you should try to make arrangements for a registered dealer to handle the importation for you. If ATF is unable to expedite the paperwork and your firearm is not claimed within 30 days, it could be transferred to a general order warehouse and you will have to pay the storage fees. After 60 days of transfer to the warehouse, it could be sold at auction.

If the firearm you intend to import is an antique and was manufactured in or before 1898, the dealer does not have to submit the Form 6 to ATF, however you must be able to prove to Customs it was manufactured during that period. Customs will accept a certificate of authenticity or bill of sale with the year the firearm was manufactured as proof of age. If the firearm was manufactured after 1898, the dealer has to submit the Form 6 to ATF for approval to import the firearm.

If the firearm is at least 100 years old or more and you can provide proof of age, the firearm will be eligible for duty-free treatment under the antique provision in the Harmonized Tariff Schedule.

You can obtain duty rates for firearms that are not antique in chapter 93 of the Harmonized Tariff Schedule under the import section of this site.

To obtain ATF regulations on imports of firearms, you should reference the “Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guideâ€. You can contact the ATF Distribution Office to obtain a copy at (703) 455-7801 or visit the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms web site at www.atf.treas.gov.

Regards,

Terry

Thanks T.Carr,

Yes, I am a US citizen, but I always get a Form 6 even with the antiques, otherwise the airlines will not transport them exempt or not. It just makes things a bit easier in a world that is growing less and less tolerant to the shooting sports and making company policy above and beyond the government’s regulations...

I plan it all out 3-4 months in advance and then apply to ATF for the permit (it really does take that long too!). The permits are valid for a year from the issue date, so you're not rushed once you have it.

In regards to Form 4457, how is temperaty export defined? Does it have a time window or is it sort of open ended?

The Form 4457 has no expiration date, so you could use it any time. There is no time limit (that I have found) in ITAR as far as "temporary" is defined. I think they use the term "temporary" to contrast with "permanent". I don't see why you couldn't take a gun out of the US for as long as you wanted and then return with it and the Form 4457 would still be valid.

As far as taking your semi-auto pistol with you back overseas, again it is one of those "technically it is illegal" but in practice I seems that goes on all the time without Customs ever raising an eyebrow.

Regards,

Terry