I don't have a big bore - yet. I have two Enfields that will become custom rifles.

I was originally thinking of doing a .416 cal and .458 cal rifle. But starting thinking that just having a 404 or 416 was enough; and I could build a 30-06 or 338 on the other action.

Question - is there a big enough stopping power different between a 404 Jeff and a 458 Lott to warrant two rifles? Yes, I know the Lott has a higher TKO than the 404, but will the animal notice?

IMHO a 404 is enough...

But a 458 is a bigger hammer...

Besides, if I built two big bore bolt actions I might talk myself out of a double rifle someday! Have a 404 bolt action might mean I would need a 470 or 500 NE to round things out

I think a pair, one in .404 Jeffery and one in .458 Lott would be an awesome combination. With those two rifles you could hunt anything in Africa.

My standard battery for Africa has been a 9,3x74r double and a 450no2.
On my last Safari I used a 450/400 3 1/4" double for cape buff, bull elephant and lion, as well as some plains game for my first 15 days, to "test the 450/400...

It worked most perfect...

I have read a great deal regarding the 416 Rigby superb killing reputation. I am not talking about knocking them down, but killing them dead. If I could only have one big bore, I would go with that. If that does not fit the actions, then the 404 sounds a better balanced round to me. Balance in the trade off between power, recoil and weight.

I also agree, the biggest double you or I could handle, sounds like a good backup to a sensible sized bolt action. I wish I had the dollars to scratch that itch. I really love to get my mits on a 577NE. Dont know if I could shoot it well enough, but sure like to have one to play with.

Build a 375 H&H and a 458 Lott. Then buy a 500NE double. Add a 300H&H on another Enfield and have the world of big game hunting blanketed...

Rich

I have a 375 H&H already - killed everything from a Caracal to a Cape Buffalo with it the last time in Africa.

I also have a 300 RUM - it killed everything the time before in Africa and stuff here at home.

I have some 308 winchesters, a 7 mag, and a 8x57 (being built as we speak) to round things out.

So I'm not sure what a 300 H&H would buy me (other than coolness factor) nor even a 338 win mag (except easy to get ammo).

I thought about a 8mm Rem Mag or a 8x68, but my 300 RUM can do all that already.

I start thinking like that, then it get's easier to justify two big bore rifles!

Did the issue with 500 cal rounds ever get cleared up? The travel issues? I was thinking about a 500 Jeff or 505 Gibbs for the helluva of it, but didnt want to run into customs or other issues traveling.

I like your way of thinking in the last post!

Go 404 and something that starts with .5xx

Pros and cons of a 500 Jeffrey vs a 505 Gibbs? Everything I read says to go 505 Gibbs. And then again, I've read a lot of good things about the .495 Asquare.

quote:

Pros and cons of a 500 Jeffrey vs a 505 Gibbs? Everything I read says to go 505 Gibbs. And then again, I've read a lot of good things about the .495 Asquare.

the 500 jeff has a wider bullet selection the 495 is a 510 dia also 505 is a great round with slim bullet selection

[/QUOTE]the 500 jeff has a wider bullet selection the 495 is a 510 dia also[/QUOTE]

I own and love a .505 and other then a slightly larger .510 bullet selection for the Jeffery (I wish I could load .50 BMG bullets for the WOW factor) there are no practical differences between the two. If the rifle is built by someone who knows how to build them they are pretty much dead even. You can get around feeding issues in either by using a single stack magazine which AHR makes. Above 2300 fps both get brutal and if a .50+ cal at 2200fsp isn't enough I give up. It is personal preference as both are classic, nostalgic, really awesome calibers.

The only problem with the .495 A-Square is the .500 A-Square. The .500 gets all the attention and you can't find any .495 components.

The .500 AHR is a very practical choice. Its only down side is it doesn't have a century of history and romance behind it.

Also the jeff can be built on a standard action but then again the 505 has lower opetateing pressure and the list goes on back and forth etc if its the want factor either or but pratical factor go 458 class

Come to a bigbore shoot, like the ones we put on in Houston, and try them out. Lots of guys, with lots of calibers, are more than willing to share at the hoot n shoot .. or arrange for someone like, oh, ME, to meet you and let you try them out.

assuming 9-10 lb rifles in these cases

low 40's class, full bore rifles (444 marlin need not apply)

404 jeffery/416 taylor/10,75x68, 450/400nitro, 416BM .. 400 gr at 2250fp is the standard here - this is a mild recoil, in terms of big bores, but a BIG jump from medium bores in terms of recoil.

400gr at 2400ish - 416 rigby, ruger, remington, AccRel - a definate step up in recoil,

500gr at 2150 - about the same recoil as above, 450NE,458BM, 450ne2, 458 winmag (in theory), 45/120nitro,470ne,500BM almost all the middle weight nitro express rounds and downloaded bigbores - this is THE hallmark for 100+ years, and will kill anything on the planet. In my opinion, 2150-2200 in this class is generally a strong but slow recoil. a big push

500gr at 2300/2400 fps . 458 lott, 470 Capstick, 458 and 470 AccRel, 450 rigby
this is seriously an entirely different recoil when you are pushing 2400fps than barely making 2150. recoil is much sharper- and stocks break more often

500 gr 2500/2600 - 470mbogo, 450 dakota, 460 weatherby -- trust me, this is serious recoil

535gr at or about 2300 - 505 gibbs, 500 jeffe, 500 AccRel, 500mbogo, 505 RDB, 495 and 500 A2, 510 wells -- all of these can load at this level - this is "mild" recoil for the 50s .. mild being a relative term as it all gets worse from here.

570gr-2150 .. 500Nitro .. this is again a threshold/hallmark -- the 500NE has been a stopper for 100 years ... it just works.

570 at 2300, and 600 gr at 2300 .. same cast of characters as 535 at 2300 .. all of them can be loaded up this high .. this is a recoil level that is unpleasant for most shooters .. anything past this, frankly, requires a serious commitment and training.

at this point, we leave 9-9.5# hunting rifles behind

700gr at 2130 OR 750gr at 2050 - 550 express, 550 magnum, 577NE -- 7000ft'bs .. here be monsters in recoil.. though they are only monster class

900gr at 1600/1700/1800/1900/2100 fps - 600NE, 600 OK starting loads, 700DA/Hubel Short


700gr at 2350 - 550 magnum/550 gibbs -- HOLD ON NELLY


750gr at 2350 - 585 nyati/577 BME/585 hubel short - in terms of a 338 winmag, recoil is unimaginable

750gr at 2500 -- 577 trex -

900gr at 2400 fps -- 600 Overkill - while there is more recoil available in the 12 ga from hell and some of Ed Hubel's wildcats, this is a normal human threshold -- firing 3 rounds of this is unlikely to cause arterial trauma due to secondary impacts, but only unlikely, not impossible.

btw, starting with enfields, you can build ALL of these, its just a question of how much you want to spend on them.

will the animal notice the difference? everything else being equal, most shooters are likely to have better shot placement with the lower recoiling rifles .. so, in fact, the mild 40s are more condusive to accurate shot placement and therefore yes, the animal might notice .0001 second difference in expiration

choices of calibers... bullets are consumed with every shot, not cases, and are a driving factor in how much you want to afford to shoot .. 458 is THE cheapest bigbore on the planet to shoot, with the widest bullet selection .. 200gr to 600gr are reeadily available. My advice, start with a .458 .. and usually that followed up with - lott, in a cz550 .. this is the best bang for the buck out there, then the ruger rsm in 458 lott.


action choices - the 416 ruger, and then ALL the 416, 458, 470, and 500 Accrels, the 495A2, and the 500 jeffe can fit into standard length actions -- though the ruger obviates the taylor and Accrel ..


just because i typed alot, I'll offer some advice .. if you are going to BUILD please consider the 458 AccRel -- it WILL outrun a 458lott, no questions asked.. but can be downloaded to popgun.

if i was looking at building two rifles, and knowing what i know about enfields and rifle builds, I would seriously consider buying either a cz 458lott or ruger RSM 458 lott, and having them bedded, cross bolted and wrist pinned, and shooting THAT ... remington 405 gr bullets can go 1800 or 2400 in a lott (or anyother 45) and lay waste to deer and pigs, in a scoped rifle.

if you consider a .510 shooter (sorry, .505 bullets don't excite me), the 500AccRel is hard to beat, frankly .. standard length, standard 50 cal bullets, easy to make or buy brass, and dies are available.

oh, btw, if you decide to use any of the .475 guns, the speer deepcurl/golddot 400gr is a TOUGH and cheap bullet.. about the same cost as the rem 405 .458 .. its electroplated .035 thick .. making it one TOUGH bullet, which the rem 405 is NOT.

in a nutshell, see if someone will let you shoot their bigbores.. the more the better for you, and if possible, at least twice, before diving in ... and the 458lott is likely the best value for a bigbore.. lastly, unless those enfields have alot of sentimental value, just buy a pair of CZs in 416 rigby and 458 lott, have CZ bed them for you, an call it good in alot of ways.. you can likely have the pair in a month, even if you do the work on them.

that can NOT be said for two custom builds ...

That is a really awesome reply - thank you! I do agree the CZ and Ruger RSM are a good choice. I have a Ruger 375 H&H that has been bedded with a new recoil pad and trigger job - a pleasure to shoot and the sights/rib are a nice touch! Can't go wrong on the CZ's either.

However, I have the Enfields already and new bottom metal from Duane. I was going with a straight bolt and 3 pos shroud safety as well. If there is a drawback to using the Enfields (aside from time and $$$) please let me know.

My goal with a 404 or 416 is a mild recoil cartridge with a wide bullet selection that feeds well. Assume the 404 Jeff fits this spot nicely? I'm also considering the 416 Rem Mag due more bullet selection and easier to find ammo.

I've read nothing but good stuff about the versatility of the 458 lott. I will check into the 458 accrel as well.

I can also handle a heavy rifle - I carry my 375 H&H in my hand most of the time versus slinging it and I'm not talking about one hand over the shoulder. And my 300 RUM is a pig (the original Remington Sendero - it's going to get a new barrel and stock soon to slim it down). I guess it was from all those years in high school shooting competition Anschutz and Feinwerkbau rifles! I was thinking 11-12 pounds on the 458+ caliber, especially since I didn't intend to scope it. Of course, it has to balance. That's one thing I like about the Ruger - seems better balanced than the CZ.

When is the next shoot? You said in Houston? I got to go to a private 2x1 machine gun "shoot" a few weeks ago in the AZ desert and fell in love with the M3 Grease Gun and MP5. One of these is now on my "expensive rifle list" along with a 450/400 and 500 double.

We do two shoots a year, called the Hoot n Shoot -

sounds like you are already well on the way for the enfields - my advice? do NOT bother with the 3 pos safety, as the enfield already has a fantastic safety ... i like the bolt handles myself, but that's just personal taste.

the 404 is a classic .. but its not on my fav list, and I am doing a 10,75x68, just to have a .424 bore .. why? same as the 505.. bullet selection.

you could do 2 classics .. 404 and 500 jeff or ahr, as the ahr sorts out the real problems of the jeffe.

or 2 moderns, 416 rem/ruger and 500 AR ..

if you realy want easy, 416 rem and 458 lott -- great brass, bullets, and load data ...

No reason you could not load 450's in a Lott at 2250 FPS for a "mild" load. I actually like shooting the 450's in my Lott at about 2400 FPS. Seems to be less recoil than 500's at 2250 and you get a flatter shooting gun. The Lott can offer a very flexible platform. Swift and NF both make excellent 450's and NF makes great Cup points and solids.

EZ

Good concise advice from Jeff. The Lott is the most vesatile and offers the most value or utility, assuming you handload. After you are hooked, then you can fiddle around with the others, all can somehow be justified.

Thanks - sounds like a 416 rem and 458 lott

Good choices also if your doing the Remington best price on the brass right now is Jamison International 24.00 per 20 not to shabby Good Luck and ejoy your rifles

Hard to argue with any of the above views. One issue I didn't see mentioned was that the .505 G case has a better rim design (IMO) than the .500 J. Well done they are functionally identical, noting the Jeff can be built on a shorter action. I'll take the .505G,; you can always build a .510 using the .505 case if the .505 bullet doesn't ring your bell.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Build a 375 H&H and a 458 Lott. Then buy a 500NE double. Add a 300H&H on another Enfield and have the world of big game hunting blanketed...

Rich

. If you have a375 then definatly a Lott and figure out which monster bore you want .the Lott is the most practicle there is .

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Hunter:
Besides, if I built two big bore bolt actions I might talk myself out of a double rifle someday! Have a 404 bolt action might mean I would need a 470 or 500 NE to round things out

Sounds like a good plan to me

That will make a nice match pair of guns and cartridges(416Rem 458Lott). That particular pair is not offered by any USA gun maker.