OK Guys,
I AM serious about this question. I hear people talking about headaches, nosebleeds, detatched retina's ect. when talking about shooting the real hard kickers.
I'm an ex-boxer, phys.ed major - and I'm aware of the very real danger that repeated concussions can have on your long term health. Even professional soccer players (not to mention boxers) often end up drooling, stuttering and displaying Alzheimer-like symptoms in their old age.
Have any of you ever worried about such a thing, or heard about any cases or any examples.
I think owning a super-big bore might be a kick (in more ways than one) but I wouldn't want to use it enough in practice if I thought that in trying to get really proficient with it - I was hurting my health.
What are your thoughts on the subject?

quote:

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Originally posted by BCBrian:
OK Guys,
I AM serious about this question. I hear people talking about headaches, nosebleeds, detatched retina's ect. when talking about shooting the real hard kickers.
I'm an ex-boxer, phys.ed major - and I'm aware of the very real danger that repeated concussions can have on your long term health. Even professional soccer players (not to mention boxers) often end up drooling, stuttering and displaying Alzheimer-like symptoms in their old age.
Have any of you ever worried about such a thing, or heard about any cases or any examples.
I think owning a super-big bore might be a kick (in more ways than one) but I wouldn't want to use it enough in practice if I thought that in trying to get really proficient with it - I was hurting my health.
What are your thoughts on the subject?

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I am a rifle looney and a physcian.
I just had my retinas checked out today: no problems.
This is why I think 50 cal is big enough for kicks.
Some people are simply more prone to injury than others, and everyone has to know his limits and accept responsibility for his actions.
I do not think you will find much in the scientific literature about Alzheimers or Parkinsonism and big bores, nor even detached retinas. Just not big enough a risk.

Some will detach a retina or herniate a disc with a sneeze.

Max Schmelling (sp?) just died at 99 years of age and still had his wits about him despite trading victory and loss with Joe Louis.

Muhamad Ali needs a drool bucket by now probably.

It's mostly genetic and nutritional/developmental/pre-existing-injury-related, the stoutness of our stuff.

Ray and Saeed do have a good plan in sticking to .404's, .416's, and .375's for the most part.

Anything over 50 cal is way unneccessary chest beating.

And besides, at least the .50 cals offer a wealth of target and and anti-materiale bullets for other applications, making them the most versatile of big bores.

Every home ought to have at least one 500 A-Square.

Oh that's my problem. Seriously, yes shooting in
bad positions, especially off the bench is dangerous.All my load testing and chrono work is a stand up bench with a heavy tripod locked to barrel..Tripod can be as heavy as I need
with extra weights.And double hearing protection.And some of those we are working up now,2 and 4bore, will only be fired offhand occasionally.

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Originally posted by hubel458:
Oh that's my problem ...

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You said it, Ed.

I have not had anywhere near the brain pounding that you have inflicted upon yourself.

The comparison to boxing may offer something further considering in that regular sparring, which one does 50-100 times more often than actually getting in the ring, is where more damage could be occurring.

The bigbores have a built in deterrant to long term usage abuse called immediate usage abuse.

The smaller mediums that get fired in the thousands may be causing more long term effect

Then again they say it is above a certain threshold of impact in boxing that causes the suuden increase in damage.
As a learned army gorilla I don't feel I can contest what RIP has said

Karl.

The real question is does brain damage lead to big bores ?

About 10 years ago I started using a bag of lead shot behind the gun.

The back holds about 15 pounds of shot and I sit the bag on a flat sand bag that is on the bench behind the butt. The bag of lead shot is quite loose and the lead comes about 2/3rds of the way up and the butt of the gun is mainly against the top of the bag that has no shot, so length of pull is not changed much.

Another poster here, John S, has a strap that goes around the butt and the strap has another strap that loops over the butt to stop it falling down. Each end of the strap is attached to lead lead bags.

I have never used the system that John S uses but the way I use the bag of lead shot there was only about 1 inch chnage in vertical point of impact.

The bag of lead shot seems to have a different effect to a weighted gun as the energy seems to go into driving the shot sideways. The gun comes back very little.

I use the bag no matter what calibre I use as I have become vey use to it and I actually find the gun sits more steady than normal.

I also have another lead bag (they are made of leather) which weighs about 50 pounds. When I use this bag I put my arm pit over the bag.

My problem was developing neck problems and was caused by shooting many shots from 300 Mag and 375 Mag across the bench with a loose hold and also doing the same in the field shooting across the bonnet of the car off a sandbag rest.

Using the lead bags you can shoot a 460 Wby intil the barrel melts and not come home with a headache.

Mike

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Originally posted by 458Win:
The real question is does brain damage lead to big bores ?

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Phil,
This is scientifically verifiable: Brain damage leads to big bores.

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Originally posted by 458Win:
The real question is does brain damage lead to big bores ?

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Phil

Alaskans must think alike, because that was my first thought when I read the title of the thread

All I know is that a 458 lott that had been gathering dust at a pawnshop had been calling my name for years, until I answered. I bought some dies, brass, and 500 gr bullets and headed to the range. That resulted in a very big grin on my face (I don't recall drooling), and down the road the 458 Lott was sold to fund a 500 Jeffrey, and a replacement 458 Lott was built.

I could see some of the super big bores like the 577 T-rex and 600 Overkill causing damage if built in relatively light guns, and shot repeatedly.

I doubt I'll ever fire off enough ammo in my 458 Lott or 500 Jeffrey to hurt me. There is also the key to big bores that is in my sig line. You can load down a big bore.

In the 500 Jeffrey I can load ~30 gr of Unique under a 470 gr cast bullet, get ~1100 fps, and make tight groups. I also get the big goofy grin on my face, and recoil is negligable

RIP- I took all the precautions and havn't been
beat up..So it must be as he said above, brain damage leads to bigbores.We will get into
some serious recoil in future and we will
weight that tripod to a hundred lbs or more.
I want to be famous but not famous and dead.
There is no reason to shoot big guns off the
bench, without using bags of shot to buffer recoil, or a deal like mine.Too dangerous,
and can give shooters a bad flinch.Leading too bad shooting. And that can really affect your well being.Ed

I think the .600 Nitro Express may have damaged my inner ear. Prior to firing the .600 Nitro Express, I never got sea sick. After 3 or 4 trips to the range and perhaps 12-15 rounds of .600 NE, I now get sea sick quite easily - even on airplanes.

500gr--Inner ear damage is very real danger
from recoil. Got rearended a few years ago,
and suffered a little whiplash
and I get vertigo in a boat now.You all remember the picture in G&A of Ross shooting light rifle with Nyati loaded heavy, and his glasses coming off, When things like that happens, time for 25 lb bag of shot for
a buffer.Ed.

I durn't beeliv thet big bore guns cuze dain bramage.

But here is my story. And I'll preface this just to give a little back ground. I also have boxed a bit and played competitive rugby for about 8 years. I don't break easy and I'm a big man. 6'4" 265lbs. I can take a hit is all I'm trying to say.

In anycase several years ago I had a new .458Lott that had a nasty habbit of cracking any and all stocks. Having a hunt coming up soon I decided that I would try and get it to shoot out of it's latest "bullet proof" stock.

I took her to the range and proceeded to fire 70 rounds over the period of about 2 hours from various positions and with fairly warm ammo.

On the drive home I noticed that I was seeing slightly double. That didn't bother me as I've had some previous experience driving with this particular Phenonenum back in my drinking days. (But that's another story.)

What was a bit strange however was when I got home I was very confused and couldn't figure out why the front door to my house wouldn't unlock with my key, it wasn't until my wife opened the door and informed me that the keyless entry button on my truck never has and never will unlock the house door, that I realized what I was doing.

Medical opinons welcome but I think I gave nyself a mild concusion?

PS

The stock cracked I had a sore head for about a week and I was forced to put a Houge overmould full length aluminum bedded stock on the gun for that hunt. Ugly but it never even thought about coming undone. It's fixed now with a proper stock.

Oh and two years later I bought a .470NE so I guess brain damage is conducive or possibly neccesary when buying a heavy.

.

I think it is fairly safe to say that around 375 recoil is OK because of the shotgunners in the world. They are also doing all their shooting off hand which would increase whiplash.

The other area is ear damage and my own experience there indicates that the big case small bore is the worst offender and it will get through muffs and plugs.

For those who like rifles of more interest than the 308 and 30/06 I think the best all around combination for both whiplash and ears is the 375 Ultra or 378 Wby loaded back to 375 H&H. Low pressure loads seem to be easier on the ears.

For example, 378s with around 85 grains of Varget, 4064 and similar with 270 grain bullet will duplicate 375 H&H ballistics with 270 grain bullets and is softer on the ears than max loads in the 375 H&H.

Mike

I do think that to much .585 Nyati shooting and calibers of that nature would do some damage if shot to much. I know I have a had a couple of ripper headaches from over the ute roof shooting with mine.

funny...

if the gun don';t fit, and you had not trained up, I can see where it would be a problem...

but, just like football and martial arts, there's a conditioning process... which is why you thought you 416 rigby kicked liked hell, until you started shooting a 500.. and the 416 now feels like a 22.

not that i would want to today, but i've taken several tumbles off horse, houses, bikes and such... and it's a question of what you are ready for AND what your body can take.... take a greenhorn, throw him off a horse, he lands like a sack of coal... take a horse breaker, and if he comes off, it's like a martial artist (most of the time)... greenhorn hops up, says's he's fine, takes 2 steps and is in a pile... experience hand.. take 30-90 seconds to make sure nothing too badly damaged, gets up, drinks some water, and gets back on

jeffe

Until I read the posts I would have said that if you don't violently accelerate the skull, it wouldn't be a problem, but I take it back now....

I was thinking by the time the impulse had gotten from the shoulder to the skull, that for a healthy person it wouldn't be a problem. Just not enough G's.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the firing of scoped lightweight guns without muzzle brakes in "toy gun" cartridges, like .338-.378 (only 5000 ft.-lbs....). If you don't stay the heck away from the scope, eye or eye socket bone injuries (wear shooting glasses too!) are a significant risk.

.

Another aspect of muzzle blast, whether in overbore cartridges or just big boomers is that the noise isn't just airborne. Plugs and muffs don't help a bit on the sound that travels through the wood and into the inner ear via your jaw bone! Much as I love shooting, it is probably a good thing that my aging ears live a good hour from the nearest range. I put in some range practice before each hunting trip and spend the rest of the time dry-firing. What began as a matter of expediency may have turned out to be a plain good idea.

My hunting docs attribute at least some of my Bursitas to shooting big bores a lot..

I have shot big bores a lot over my 70 years, and I think I have suffered some effects in the neck and shoulders from it, I know it has damaged my hearing inasmuch as in the "old days" nobody used hearing protection, and even today I personally cannot fathom hunting dangerous game with hearing protection on, not even the stuff that enhances sound and cuts out the boom.

I have to tell you, I like my quite world, and wouldn't hesitate to repeat any part of my life, its been worth it all....I will continue to shoot, rope and hunt until I can't lift a finger...

Well- I've had a steady diet of big bore recoil since age 16 and no bad effects so far. I will freely admit though that my reference std is the .600 NE in a Heym bolt gun. With the same load used in my .600OK that Heym will cause you to see stars!!. I have some video of it thats almost impossible to believe. of course the Heym violates nearly every principal I've learned about proper recoil management! The 12Ga FH doesn't kick nearly as hard!.
With that said, like ED I shoot only offhand and never from a bench. I go with the recoil and don't try and fight it. -Rob

BrAiN DaMaGe fromm BIg Hores I DonNoT' thInK So.

Mike375, do you have any pictures of your lead shot bag? Would be interested in seeing it.

I was thinking of making a pad like the Past recoil pad you strap to your shoulder but filled with lead shot and rib stitched to keep the shot in place. If made about 3/4 to 1" thick it should not affect the length of pull too much. Also would make it drape over the shoulder with an equal amount or more shot behind the shoulder. Figure that the added weight behind the shoulder would also help. A while ago I watched a video of someone shooting a big bore. I was not able to put it in slow motion but was able to stop the video at various times as the gun recoiled and it showed that the shoulder would start moving first and move quite a way before the head would start moving. Figure that adding a heavy pad over the shoulder would be similar to having a heavier gun.

Hart

I think those of us who like shooting big bores are a little brain damaged already!

A further question about "recoil damage". What type of bone structure and musclature do you guys who take a beating have? I have never suffered from any effects of recoil, however, a 460 weatherby, .470 Capstick and a 50 alaskan lever gun are the biggest I own, So I do not feel qualified to have an opinion here. I have never had the pleasure of firing one of the real heavies. My guess is that if you have developed muscles in the chest, shoulders and neck ( example 54" chest, 20" biceps and 20" neck) the recoil will be absorbed better by the mass. Any input?

The rifles that I am uncomfortable with are the light ones,eg. a 7 1/2 lb rifle with 416 Rem or Rigby full loads, etc. Next some calibers are always uncomfortable for me off the bench, eg, 340 Wea, 378 Wea and the afore mentioned 458 Lott. But shooting larger calibers 450 Dak and 500 AHR, in well stocked and weighted rifles, seem to diminish the "hard recoil" effect.

If the body were a metallic solid, you would call it strain rate sensitivity. In our softer bodies, I believe that high strain rate loading or high velocity loading (recoil) can cause discomfort and some injury with sustained usuage--long term bench shooting leading to headaches, distorted vision, etc.

For hunting practice, I am off the bench as soon as the rifle is sighted in so any effect of big bores is minimized. My feeling is that some of the big bores 450-600, in a proper rifle loaded up to 2250 fps, will give more of a shove that a brutal high velocity recoil. It doesn't harm to use a brake, either, if you excced 2200 fps for long periods of time.

Dak

Before I bought a PAST shield, I made up a homemade device which worked great. I had a pair of ankle weights (nylon sack) filled with shot, that attach with buckles and velcro. I attached the two weights together, so that I had one on the front of the shoulder, one behind. All together I guess they're ten pounds. It worked fine from the bench, but then again I have very long arms. Offhand I use the past, but the ankle weights work great on the bench. Bob

Hart

No photos. But the bag is about 8 inches high by 5 inches wide. When the bag is stood up the lead shot comes about 2/3rds of the way up. Alrthough at first you have it filled higher than this and it rapidly stretchs to a point and then goes no further.

The real big bag I have is almost like a cube of about 7 inches and weighs 40 or 50 pounds.

For some reason the bags of lead shot cause the recoil to disperse the shot sideways.

But for permanent bench use only the system John S has is probably the most conventient, that is, a strap around the but attached to two lead bags and the strap has a strap that is like a loop that stops the strap from falling down the butt.

I prefer the lead bag because I can use in the field from a vehichle as we shoot from the car in Australia.

My guess is that the lead bag would cause a much lesser change in point of impact than the strap around the butt.....But I am guessing.

My smaller lead bag caused about a 1 inch change in vertical with a 460 Wby.

Up until a fw years ago I was very much into bench style rifle in calibres from 6mm/06 through to 300 Winchester and also medium heavy barrel sorting configuration rifles in the same calibres, Jewell triggers etc. With those rifles I could shoot 1/2" groups at 100 yards mixing my shots up between using the lead bag and not using the bag.

Mike

It might be the "sissy's way out" but as one who has had my shoulders turn purple for a week after an afternoon at the range I'll ask:

Have any of you used a "butt-holding" type recoil rest like the "lead sled" for working up loads or sighting in at the range? I like this rest called the "lead-sled" - which is a rest with a back sling that holds the rifle's butt - and has a cradle that allows up to four bags of lead shot to be placed in it to attenuate the recoil.I'm thinking of ordering one.

I will practice extensivley offhand with any rifle I use - but for load development, I really hate getting abused on the bench. The way I see it - the only good that comes from that is the ability to brag to your friends - and to aid in helping you develop a flinch.

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Originally posted by jeffeosso:
funny...


but, just like football and martial arts, there's a conditioning process... which is why you thought you 416 rigby kicked liked hell, until you started shooting a 500.. and the 416 now feels like a 22.

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Jeffe I would agree except for head trauma. There are few ways to condition it and the force that knocks you out the first day you get into the ring is the same force that can take you out when you are ready to retire.

Then again this is direct impact - for whiplash like you guys are talking about neck strengthening makes a big difference.

Boxers do it, it helps taking a punch a bit,- also to stop their necks being put out from the big blows.

I got hit by a 240lb black guy sparring about 2 months ago with a left cross (he was sotuhpaw).I saw a bit of stars so my head didn't like it but I stayed up, however I had a bad neck that is still pissing me off now.

Karl.

Karl,

I have had the same thing......a few years ago while sparring with the bloke whom taght me a little bit (at one stage was ranked 13 in light heavy's) he hit me with a left hook and I did the hoola, but maged to saty up with no real pain at the time, but for the next 3 months my neck was stuffed and for two weeks after I had severe headaches.............I was out on my feet for sure, after that he went a tad easier on me and used to rip up in the liver.................that was as bad if not worse