Is there a direct and linear correlation between energy measuerd at the muzzel, compared to energy of recoil felt at the butt of a rifle?

In othere words, will the recoil be the same for a rifles of equal weight, both producing 3,500 ft lbs of muzzel energy, but one chambered in say 338 and the other in 416?

For example, let's just also say that the 338 bullet is lighter and traveling faster than the significantly heavier 416 bullet which is leaving the muzzel at a slower vel, yet both produce the same computed muzzel energy, for purposes of this discussion. There are many possible examples, but I just picked one.

I'm hopeing this is a rather simple question, but I'm not counting on it. One possible variable that I can think of may be the burning rate of powder - say H4198 vs H4350 - mayby the recoil will be more noticable with the faster powder/heavier bullet/slower vel. - vs slower powder/lighter bullet/faster vel, although same energy at the muzzel.

KB

Edited:
Never mind - I may have found my answer, but I'll leave the question here in case someone wants to comment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil

no ..
recoil is based on bullet weight, gun weight, powder weight, and MV .. ME ahs nuttin to do with it

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
ME ahs nuttin to do with it

Nor anything else for that matter......

tis true...

The momentum of the gun equals the momentum of the bullet and powder/gas.

Early recoil formulas assigned an average velocity to the gas of 4700 f/s. That is probably too high for calibres like the 458 Winchester and too low for a 30/378 Wby. Thus the standar recoil formula will probaly overstate the 458's recoil and understate the 30/378.

To add to what Mike said, recoil numbers are just the "free" recoil, or the recoil energy the rifle WOULD have if it were allowed to recoil unopposed.

That doesn't happen in reality. Maybe if you gently held the rifle out 6 " in front of your shoulder it would be valid, but in the real world, despite a bit of recoil pad and tissue compression, your upper body starts resisting and moving with the gun almost instantly, never allowing it to get anywhere near the calculated "recoil velocity." Since the energy is proportional to the square of the velocity, the recoil energy is always much much lowe than calculated.

I think about the only thing you can say definitively is that a gun with "100lb" of recoil kicks more than one with "50lb", but it isn't twice as much, just a realative measure, and this is before you open the cans of worms of stock design, bullet weight vs velocity, shooting position, etc.

As per usual on AR one does not ever need to buy a calculator because any physics problem can have any solution that you want it to be!

But if you want to get sort of in the ballpark, just multiple bullet velocity by bullet weight and you can compare the recoil from any two cartridges. It's how you'll see that 416's recoil more than 338's.

Or you can use this:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

Instead of asking Q's, you can plug in some numbers and see for your self what effects what.

ps. That wiki is a pretty good reference.

Felt recoil will also vary depending on stock design and factors such as weight of rifle and whether it has a muzzle brake or has been fitted with one or more mercury tube or tungsten bead recoil arrestors.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
Or you can use this:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

Instead of asking Q's, you can plug in some numbers and see for your self what effects what.

ps. That wiki is a pretty good reference.

That calculator gives interesting results, combined with the Hornady calculator results for ME.

.458 / 400gr bullet / 2135 MV = 4048 ft lb ME / 45 ft lb recoil

.366 / 250gr bullet / 2700 MV = 4047 ft lb ME / 33 ft lb recoil

assumption = both rifles are 9 pounds, powder charge wt is within 3 grains of being equal Wt. (H4895 & H4350)

I have been really trying to figure out why my 458 kicks more than I'm willing to tolerate, while I can shoot my 9.3x338 about all I want to without it bothering me much, yet they both generate about the same calculated ME, with the loads I'm using. Both have Hogue stocks, and both are on Ruger actions.

Maybe the formulas explain it. Certainly there will be a felt difference in 45 ft lbs compared to 33 ft lbs recoil, which is about the difference I'm feeling, letting my shoulder be the judge.

Plain and simple, I need to figure out some way to get that 458 within my range of tolerable recoil, so I can enjoy shooting it. One significant problem, perhaps the biggest problem is the scope, which has brushed my eyebrow several times already. I'll never be comfortable with it doing that.

Now, it's all coming back to memory - as to why I sold my last 458. I clearly remember the same stuff - Déjà vu .

KB

KB,

Try having a mercury tube or tungsten bead recoil arrestor fitted. It'll tame it right down.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
KB,

Try having a mercury tube or tungsten bead recoil arrestor fitted. It'll tame it right down.

Thanks for that advice. Now maybe that I'm past the question of why-the-phuck is this thing kicking more than I figured it ought to, I can deal with solutions.

One thing that seems to me is the recoil is past the tolerances of that mushy recoil pad, which seems to be collapsing flat, and would also account for the travel of the whole rifle, bringing the scope back toward my face.

I'm thinking of a limb saver or something similar, firm but not hard. I'm also thinking of removing the scope altogether, and having NECG sights installed, and a barrel band while I'm at it. But, with no scope, the actual usefullness of the rifle to me will be greatly reduced.

I hate muzzel brakes.

KB

Stock design and weight of the rifle are also major factors but I'd recommend a recoil arrestor as the first step.

FWIW, my .500 Jeffery weighs 12 lbs unloaded and has a mercury tube in the stock and although doesn't shoot like a pussycat, the recoil is easily manageable and I can get a pretty fast second shot off without any problems at all.

I also hate muzzle breaks..... the bloody things are largely responsible for me being as deaf as a post.

A post can hear better than you do!!!!! Steve

Fortunately, he can still write and read.

I consider this rifle a work in progress, although it's shootable. It's an assembly of ideas I've had for many years. I think it may have originated around 30 years ago, and I just got around to making it happen. Initially it was a bolt action 45-70 that I thought I wanted, but I quickly got over that.

The short story is this rifle is a 458 WM, but I had it built specially to shoot 350 - 400 gr bullets - handloads only. I have no intention of ever shooting anything heavier, and most likely factory loads won't chamber because it has a short throat. Basically it's a 458 with a 45-70 throat, and actually marked "short throat" on the barrel - just in case a relative inherits it. The barrel has a 20" twist, just like most 45-70s. It's probably technically classified as a wildcat, which is the way I think of it, but it does use standard 458WM brass, handloaded.

I figured I would try it, and of course if I don't like the short throat, it can be opened up relatively easily.

For a 458, it's a relatively light rifle.

So, it's an experiment, and I want to have fun with it, plus actually use it for hiking around salmon streams in summer and maybe moose hunting and possibly black bear. I don't need a cape buffalo rifle, but it would be great to have one that will whack a brown bear or moose very decisively.

I would like to get so that I'm reasonably comfortable using say the Barnes 350 gr or perhaps the Swift 400 gr at top loads of AA2230, which should get close to 2500 fps or 2300 fps respectively. I've got a ways to go with that, because I'm not comfy yet with 2100 fps with 400 grs, with this light rifle.

A guy's gotta have goals.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
A post can hear better than you do!!!!! Steve

Pardon?

You can tell the old PHs sitting around a campfire or on a bar........ they're all saying to each other: eh? what'd he say? pardon? what was that? did someone say something?

Sadly it's true and in reality, it ain't fuckin' funny at all.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
A post can hear better than you do!!!!! Steve

Pardon?

You can tell the old PHs sitting around a campfire or on a bar........ they're all saying to each other: eh? what'd he say? pardon? what was that? did someone say something?

Sadly it's true and in reality, it ain't fuckin' funny at all.

+1

Not just old PH's, old shooters as well - like me !!!

.

Shakari,
what did you say type louder I did not hear you!!!!!! I just noticed you don't type with a british accent

HUH, WHAT'D HE SAY? DAMN COLONIALS SPEND ALL THEIR TIME MUTTERING DON'TCHAKNOW!!!!

YA i love to whisper arond ya it so much fun to watch the confused look on your face. you know the face only a mother could love besides when is the last time you heard me muttering about anything??? I'v never been know for my quiet dignity!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
HUH, WHAT'D HE SAY? DAMN COLONIALS SPEND ALL THEIR TIME MUTTERING DON'TCHAKNOW!!!!

Friggin' imperialists always blaming us colonists for everything. You're deeeef cause you're a fossil Steve!! Taint got nuthin' ta do with muzzle blast eh ...??

he said it I just thunk it

Fuck, ya got me there guys!

ya but your easy to get!!!!!!!!!!!

Steve(forrest gump) shakari,
type faster forrest type fastter piss off use coloniest and we gang up on ya

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
Steve(forrest gump) shakari,
type faster forrest type fastter piss off use coloniest and we gang up on ya

Anglo Imperialists don't type man ... they have "help" for that ...

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

Anglo Imperialists don't type man ... they have "help" for that ...

Quite right old chap..... .we can hardly be expected to do that kind of thing for ourselves don'tchaknow!

dam your right I forgot there allergic to anything that looks the slightest like work

there idea of work is single malt in the evening. Having to lift the glass unassisted

time for me to go back under my bridge

Hey Steve! You should post a proper photo of yourself to counter all this rubbish!!

mom must have called Daddy to bed. It's pasted his bedtime

quote:

Now, it's all coming back to memory - as to why I sold my last 458. I clearly remember the same stuff - Déjà vu .

Fear not, there are boat loads of former Lott owners!