Will a 416 Rigby work well in a pre 64 Winchester model 70 H&H length action? Do you have to modify anything? Do they feed reliably? If not, what modifications are required?

Will it work? I have an extra H&H action and a friend with a fair amount of Federal Premium 416 Rigby ammo offered to me at a good price.

I might go with 416 Rem as I know that works and possibly a 458 Lott, but have heard the Lotts don't feed well from an H&H action.

The Winchester pre 64 M70 H&H length action has already been 'opened up' from a standard length action albeit it was done by Winchester. The pre 64's were not produced as a magnum length action.
In opening up the standard action quite a lot of the feed ramp /lower locking lug abutment has been removed to fit the longer H&H cartridges and the magazine box lengthened as well. I have seen images of a M70 in 375H&H and the cartridge only just fits the magazine box and opened up action, the 416 Rigby cartridge is longer again than the H&H cartridges so I imagine more opening up work would be required for the 416 Rigby cartridge which may not be practical or safe.

Actually...the "Official" OAL of the 416 Rigby is 95+ mm and 375 is aabout 89mm Granted...the commerial ammo Iv'e come across is closer to the 89 mm length

Don't know if one would run across any of the "longer" version

Yeah I posted in two spots. It doesn't look like a very good option. I tried to convert a 1917 Enfield to a 416 Rigby 30+ years ago. Back then Numrich had a kit and instructions. I never got it to feed perfectly. I traded to a friend and he never got it feeding perfectly either.

P14 and 17 Enfields are far more suitable for long magnums than the pre 64 Model 70, which are all 30-06 length. Only in 1964 did they make it true magnum length. It is not hard to make the Enfields feed; use ball end mill. Don't need a kit; you need a bigger follower. I use Ruger magnums.

no -- the winchester custom shop made exactly TWO 416 rigby and stopped offering it -- COULD it work? yeah, sure -- but suitable? NO -- just buy a CZ

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
Will a 416 Rigby work well in a pre 64 Winchester model 70 H&H length action? Do you have to modify anything? Do they feed reliably? If not, what modifications are required?

Will it work? I have an extra H&H action and a friend with a fair amount of Federal Premium 416 Rigby ammo offered to me at a good price.

I might go with 416 Rem as I know that works and possibly a 458 Lott, but have heard the Lotts don't feed well from an H&H action.

My .416 Hoffman, which is almost identical to the Remington, feeds well through my pre-64. I have noticed an occasional problem with flat nosed solids if I cycle hard & fast, but TSX’s, Bearclaws and similar all feed well.

You shouldn’t have problems with the .416 Remington.

allow me to revise -
the HH cases all tend to feed better in an HH based action due to geometry - the rigby case is longer and has greater diameter - and when properly stacked, as signifyingly wider than even the RUM/WSM/404 cases, which require a good deal of modification

following Jim Wisner's directions, making it work on an enfield isn't all that hard

Re-read the above post before you even consider this, still tempted ? Then read it again a 3rd time

On the other hand, just to play the devil's advocate, Harry Selby had his M98 "standard" length Mauser in 416 Rigby. Shot it enough that he had to put a new barrel on it. My understanding is it is still being used today. But, that being said, the CZ 550 is a much better choice all around.

Just to clarify. I am not intent on building a 416 Rigby out of anything. I have a spare pre 64 H&H action and already have a pre 64 70 in 375 H&H. I also have access to a fair amount of Federal Premium ammunition in 416 Rigby. I am definitely not going to try and build it into a 416 Rigby. I may go with a 416 Rem. I made one on a pre 64 H&H before and it functioned and shot great. Like a dummy, I sold it.

Back when I built (not 100% successful) a 416 Rigby on a Win 1917 Enfield action there was no Internet. What help you got was local knowledge. We figured the follower was the issue. Machine shops were few and far between being very rural here. You did the best you could with what you had. Karl Kenyon built some fine triggers for Win 52's with a drill, hacksaw and file in the early days. I don't know if he ever got a milling machine.

I will make something useful out of this action; it may be a big one - 416 Rem or 458 Lott or maybe something along the lines of 300 Weatherby, 7 STW. Who knows. It doesn't cost nothing to sit here and look at it!

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
P14 and 17 Enfields are far more suitable for long magnums than the pre 64 Model 70, which are all 30-06 length. Only in 1964 did they make it true magnum length. It is not hard to make the Enfields feed; use ball end mill. Don't need a kit; you need a bigger follower. I use Ruger magnums.

So if you put a bigger follower in an Enfield you’re saying the rifle will feed a ball end mill?…

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
Just to clarify. I am not intent on building a 416 Rigby out of anything. I have a spare pre 64 H&H action and already have a pre 64 70 in 375 H&H. I also have access to a fair amount of Federal Premium ammunition in 416 Rigby. I am definitely not going to try and build it into a 416 Rigby. I may go with a 416 Rem. I made one on a pre 64 H&H before and it functioned and shot great. Like a dummy, I sold it.

Back when I built (not 100% successful) a 416 Rigby on a Win 1917 Enfield action there was no Internet. What help you got was local knowledge. We figured the follower was the issue. Machine shops were few and far between being very rural here. You did the best you could with what you had. Karl Kenyon built some fine triggers for Win 52's with a drill, hacksaw and file in the early days. I don't know if he ever got a milling machine.

I will make something useful out of this action; it may be a big one - 416 Rem or 458 Lott or maybe something along the lines of 300 Weatherby, 7 STW. Who knows. It doesn't cost nothing to sit here and look at it!

You could build a 500 Jeffery on it. Would take a skilled gunsmith.

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
On the other hand, just to play the devil's advocate, Harry Selby had his M98 "standard" length Mauser in 416 Rigby. Shot it enough that he had to put a new barrel on it. My understanding is it is still being used today. But, that being said, the CZ 550 is a much better choice all around.

That's certainly true and Harry said that in all the years he used his 416 and the hundreds of shots fired at animals, many of which were dangerous game, he never had any issues at all with the Mauser rifle.
I have always wondered what his opened up standard M98 looked like, I have a standard Oberndorf M98 Mauser that's been opened up for the 404 cartridge and the 416 Rigby is approaching another 1/4" in overall length compared to the 404 cartridge. Don't know how they managed to get this extra length from for the magazine box without cutting away more of the feed ramp than already is for the 404 cartridge. You can only gain so much from the rear by altering the bolt stop and milling the back of the magazine well and then have to start on the front.

Despite being developed in 1911, the 416 Rigby dimensions were not sandardized until SAAMI did it somewhere between 1989 and 92 (near as I can find out)

I well remember an article,,,maybe in the 1970's lamenting the fact that you could have five 416 Rigby rifles and ammo would not interchange..maybe not fit any of them!

SAAMI still shows OAL ctg length as a bit over 95MM.....a whopping 6mm over normal 375 H&H OAL: of about 89mm .

Builders of 416 Rigby's mostly had their own reamers....Fact is I recall borrowing Al Biesen's reamer in about 1970 or so..I just reamed the chamber until it accepted the provided ammo! That was the best we could do!

I'll bet a big mac that the ammo companies...at least here in the US..saw the oppurtunity of a 416 Rigby load that was 89mm of less to fit plenty of non magnum length actions...And that is why we can make this cartridge based on opened up standard length actions...The military 98 included.

Like Eagle..Canmot see how it was possible for Selby to open up a 98 with 95mm ammo..Just ain't enough room. Had to be handloads

I vividly recall same confusion with the 500 Jeffery...We have to thank Art Alfin for leading the charge to finally standardize dimensions

quote:

Like Eagle..Cannot see how it was possible for Selby to open up a 98 with 95mm ammo..Just ain't enough room. Had to be handload

From what Selby wrote about his 416 it was a Rigby Mauser which he purchased from Shaw and Hunter a gunshop in Nairobi, the rifle abandoned there by someone who had ordered it. While Rigby did usually make their Mauser Rigbys on the magnum action it seems they did use the opened up standard action in some cases. I understand that Selby had Rigbys re-barrel his 416 rifle when the original barrel wore out so it seems they were happy enough with the safety of the opened up Mauser 98.
Selby also says he was using Rigby solids and in time abandoned using soft nose as the ones available from Kynoch broke up. The only use for soft nose bullets he said was for Lion but the solid bullets "rolled" lions over pretty well. I take from this that he was using Rigby and Kynoch factory ammo, he never mentions reloading ammunition, so his Rigby Mauser must have accommodated the 95mm full length cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Like Eagle..Cannot see how it was possible for Selby to open up a 98 with 95mm ammo..Just ain't enough room. Had to be handload

From what Selby wrote about his 416 it was a Rigby Mauser which he purchased from Shaw and Hunter a gunshop in Nairobi, the rifle abandoned there by someone who had ordered it. While Rigby did usually make their Mauser Rigbys on the magnum action it seems they did use the opened up standard action in some cases. I understand that Selby had Rigbys re-barrel his 416 rifle when the original barrel wore out so it seems they were happy enough with the safety of the opened up Mauser 98.
Selby also says he was using Rigby solids and in time abandoned using soft nose as the ones available from Kynoch broke up. The only use for soft nose bullets he said was for Lion but the solid bullets "rolled" lions over pretty well. I take from this that he was using Rigby and Kynoch factory ammo, he never mentions reloading ammunition, so his Rigby Mauser must have accommodated the 95mm full length cartridge.

The rifle was originally owned by Don Bousfield, the hunter/warden. And it was May & Co. where he bought it.

Harry told me once if he were to have a new rifle built it would be on a Zkk602.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Like Eagle..Cannot see how it was possible for Selby to open up a 98 with 95mm ammo..Just ain't enough room. Had to be handload

From what Selby wrote about his 416 it was a Rigby Mauser which he purchased from Shaw and Hunter a gunshop in Nairobi, the rifle abandoned there by someone who had ordered it. While Rigby did usually make their Mauser Rigbys on the magnum action it seems they did use the opened up standard action in some cases. I understand that Selby had Rigbys re-barrel his 416 rifle when the original barrel wore out so it seems they were happy enough with the safety of the opened up Mauser 98.
Selby also says he was using Rigby solids and in time abandoned using soft nose as the ones available from Kynoch broke up. The only use for soft nose bullets he said was for Lion but the solid bullets "rolled" lions over pretty well. I take from this that he was using Rigby and Kynoch factory ammo, he never mentions reloading ammunition, so his Rigby Mauser must have accommodated the 95mm full length cartridge.

Hmmm Well...gotta wonder how much was left of the ramp..or (long shot) custom made bolt stop/ejector. Love to see someone with plenty knowledge write up an investigative story on the that action

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
On the other hand, just to play the devil's advocate, Harry Selby had his M98 "standard" length Mauser in 416 Rigby. Shot it enough that he had to put a new barrel on it. My understanding is it is still being used today. But, that being said, the CZ 550 is a much better choice all around.

That's certainly true and Harry said that in all the years he used his 416 and the hundreds of shots fired at animals, many of which were dangerous game, he never had any issues at all with the Mauser rifle.
I have always wondered what his opened up standard M98 looked like, I have a standard Oberndorf M98 Mauser that's been opened up for the 404 cartridge and the 416 Rigby is approaching another 1/4" in overall length compared to the 404 cartridge. Don't know how they managed to get this extra length from for the magazine box without cutting away more of the feed ramp than already is for the 404 cartridge. You can only gain so much from the rear by altering the bolt stop and milling the back of the magazine well and then have to start on the front.

There were several pics floating around on the internet years ago when it was sold to the new owner. As I remember, there were some nice close ups of the action. There is a gent who posts here on the forum who commissioned a build of a duplicate of this rifle. He may chime in and let you know what the outcome was.

I have a 1953 M-70 originally in 375 H&H, that I found with cut stock and threaded barrel for a useless comp. Reasonable.
Removed all of that and cut -rifled/rechambered to 416 Remington magnum. Kept orig iron sights. Worked and fed beautifully. Also required no alteration of bolt or magazine, holds 1 more round.

A Remington or Hoffman 416 is the way to modify the M-70 action, NOT the Rigby.

No way would I put a .416 Rigby into a standard Mauser or a pre-64 Win. Model 70, notwithstanding that it's been done.

A magnum Mauser or a CZ 550 Magnum or the big BRNO action would be far better choices.

I suppose a post-64 long action Model 70 could also be made to work, with the emphasis on MADE. They do work well with the .300 RUM.

YMMV.

Well...cartridge size is really just a gunsmithing issue ( excluding 95 mm ammo)...OAL of 416 Rigby (as loaded commercially) is same as 375 H&H and oprates at about 10,000 less PSI.

I agree that converting a M-70 375 to 416 Rem Mag is a lot easier.

Kinda too bad the 416 Ruger seems to be overlooked..Bet it would benefit by renaming to something like "416 Nitro Express" or ???

416 ARC ( African Rifle Cartridge) or 416 SRA ( Safari Rifle Cartridge)

HA! Better than "416 Ruger" Not to diminish Ruger's contribution to the industry..Just that the Ruger name is forever connected to mass produced, but reliable firearms at a reasonable cost.

Auto industry does it all the time to "define" the out of ordinary. Who calls a Corvette a "Chevy"

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
HA! Better than "416 Ruger" Not to diminish Ruger's contribution to the industry..Just that the Ruger name is forever connected to mass produced, but reliable firearms at a reasonable cost.

Auto industry does it all the time to "define" the out of ordinary. Who calls a Corvette a "Chevy"

Yup. As petty as it is, names matter.

I would have opted for the 416 Rimless N.E.

Hell, you could revive the 458 Win Mag as the 450 Rimless N.E. and it would magically out perform the 458 win mag - honest!

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
HA! Better than "416 Ruger" Not to diminish Ruger's contribution to the industry..Just that the Ruger name is forever connected to mass produced, but reliable firearms at a reasonable cost.

Auto industry does it all the time to "define" the out of ordinary. Who calls a Corvette a "Chevy"

And FN will never chamber a rifle bearing Ruger’s name. They will other Ruger/Hornady designs like the PRC etc, but never Ruger.

ARC is very polished name now for Advanced Rifle Cartridge. So, you get that rub.

It's as old as marketing itself.

Remember the history of all the "W.C.F." cartridges?

Perhaps most prominently the .30 W.C.F.?

John Marlin wouldn't put "W.C.F." on his rifles, and Union Metallic Cartridge Company wouldn't put it on their ammunition, so the ".30 W.C.F." became the ".30-30".

"Thirty-thirty" became so popular a coinage that even Winchester began using it and still does.

Here is how to put a 416 Rigby on a 98 Mauser; chop away most of the lower bolt lug abutment.
This will cause no problems since the 416 is loaded below 40K psi max chamber pressure. So both back thrust is low.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
HA! Better than "416 Ruger" Not to diminish Ruger's contribution to the industry..Just that the Ruger name is forever connected to mass produced, but reliable firearms at a reasonable cost.

Auto industry does it all the time to "define" the out of ordinary. Who calls a Corvette a "Chevy"

And FN will never chamber a rifle bearing Ruger’s name. They will other Ruger/Hornady designs like the PRC etc, but never Ruger.

ARC is very polished name now for Advanced Rifle Cartridge. So, you get that rub.

well, they DID build model 70s in the RUM carts, so you never know

and it's not like ruger /rem / savage doesn't do 270 and 308 -- and 338 and 300 and 458 .. etc .. all WCF

And Winchester still owned by Olin when they built rifles w Remington names on them. Ruger cartridges that FN seems to have an issue with.

It was in the late 80s that FN took control of USRA.

When the 375 Ruger was hot and everyone including Mossberg and Savage built rifles for it, but not Winchester/FN.


I wonder how many of those RUsMs were ran through the Custom Shop.

Now, if a dealer or wholesaler would order 500 units, I am sure FN/Winchester would make a 416 Ruger. I say that because when looking for a 264 WM, I was told of a limited run of 264 Wim Msgs built for a specific dealer. That is how the Cabela specials get done.

I know two PHs that have 416 Rigbys on pre 64 guns and love them, I personally prefer a 416 Rem in a pre 64 or Rem 30s but to each his own, Rigbys are oversize and clumsy but suitable for the big 50s IMO.

Hard to beat Enfield for a DG rifle and I prefer the Rem 30 in a 404 J..