I took one shot with 600 gr Norma loads and went back in the house. All I can say is Damn!

I fired my 458 Lott a couple weeks ago, and I must say, I dont get what all the fuss is about and why one would question the increase recoil from a WinMag to a Lott. That was also a CZ550.

Well, I am here to tell you the Gibbs with 600 grains, is seriously more. I bruised my shoulder. The 505 is going to take some practice. I need to try a 525gr loading. No problem holding on. But; well, again, all I can say is: " Damn!" You know when this baby goes off.

I just set the CZ550 Gibbs on the bathroom scale and reads 10 pounds, even. Thank you sir, may I have another? I am thinking one more pound might be nice.

Alright, then - I am not disappointed. I got a big gun.

Could someone calculate the recoil energy and velocity in a 9 lb 458 Lott 500gr hornady factory load and again both for a 10lb rifle with 505 Gibbs with 600 gr Norma loads? I think I am approaching my personal limit and like to know where I am at. Might have to rethink the 585/577 plans unless added gun mass can soften the punch.

Fourbore:

I have a good friend who shoots a .505 Gibbs and I have shot it on a number of occassions. I agree that with the 600 grain bulets, it does indeed generate a significant amount of recoil. I would encourage you to drop down to the 525 grain bullest and load it down a bit. Then, it's not to bad to shoot. You can also add some weigh to the gun. I shoot a .500 Jeffery that weighs about the same as your Gibbs. I put a 2.5 Leupold on it with some QD rings. That added about another pound. Now, I have no trouble shooting it.

Dave

Found this web site and played with some numbers too look at how loads and weight, effect recoil. two pound makes a big difference in 505 recoil, lighter bullet does not seem to matter for Kynock vs Norma loads.

http://www.huntamerica.com/recoil_calculator/


Gun______RugerM77_____CZ550_____CZ550_____CZ550_____TwoPounds
Caliber___416 Rigby_____458 Lott____505 Gibbs___505 Gibbs__505 Gibbs
Load_____Hornady______Hornady____Norma______Kynock____Norma

Bullet_____400__________500__________600______525______600____________grains
Veocity___2400_________2300_________2100_____2300_____2100______________fps
ME______5115_________5872_________5877_____6180_____5877_____________ft-lbs
GunWt_____9____________9___________10_______10_______12____________pounds
Powder____95___________75__________145______145______145____________grains

Recoil
Energy_____65___________74__________101______101_______84_____________ft-lbs

Recoil
Velocity____21___________23___________25_______25_______21_______________fps

I had the same experience when I loaded some 600 gr solids above 2500 fps.

The 525 gr loads at 2300-2350 are very similar in felt recoil to the Lott.

a 9lb 458 Lott with a 500gr at 2300 develops 76ft/lbs at 23fps assuming an 80gr powder charge.

The 505 with a 800gr bullet and 130 grs powder at 2300fps generates 114ft/lbs of recoil at 27fps.

This data is from the recoil calc. at handloads.com

There is a difference in recoil impulse os 6.52 lbs/sec for the Lott to 8.43 lbs/sec for the Gibbs. I assume this is the perception of some rifles feeling like a shove and others feeling like a sharp jab, but that is just my take on it. The Gibbs I had would flat take my breath away when it was loaded to it's potential. It was not un manageable but was certainly not an all day shooter. I switched to 535gr cast bullets in a custom mold with gas checks and never went back. The recoil dropped down to the level of the Lott. The rifle had a stock that was far to narrow across the butt. A new stock would have made all the difference. It was also a right hand rifle and I normally shoot south paw. It ate two Leupold scopes before I gave up and sold the rifle. Loaded, it weighed 9.75lbs. Eleven pounds would have been alot better and I would still have the rifle is my bet

fourbore, does your rifle have mercury recoil reducer in it? I thought all the CZ Safari Classics in 505 Gibbs came with one, if so I'm surprised it only weighs 10 lbs. I'm having my CZ 375 H&H rebarreled to 500 Jeffery. It already has one reducer in it, and I'm having them add another one. I was hoping for 11 lbs empty with no scope or sling. I'll find out in a few weeks when it gets here.

The link to the recoil calculator online at Handloads.COM Joe mentioned is:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

Regards,

Chuck

where is 145lb Rodney who shoots my old CZ505? He has about shot the barrel out, and never complains about the recoil...

We need to talk about my 550 Gibbs some day. 615gr solids by Macifej in a 10lb rifle.

Rich
Buff Killer

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
We need to talk about my 550 Gibbs some day. 615gr solids by Macifej in a 10lb rifle.

Rich
Buff Killer

I KNOW what that is like.

Keith

quote:

where is 145lb Rodney who shoots my old CZ505? He has about shot the barrel out, and never complains about the recoil...

that is 1 nice sweet shootin .505.....

the gibbs does kick somewhat harder than the lott, largely due to powder burnt.

if you can shoot a 375 well, you can probably shoot a gibbs, once in awhile.

don't let the recoil scare you... the price of commerical ammo should scare you!

Ha, ha, the same thing happened to me! My stock CZ in .505 Gibbs also weighs in at 10 lbs. and I am going to add a pound or two. I can go 4-5 rounds with 525gr loads or 2 rounds with the 600gr loads before the headache sets in. The .505 is shootable and if I was face to face with a pissed off elephant I don't think I would notice, but at the range I have to agree...DAMN!

For those who might want to know mine does have the mercury tube from CZ.

Damn viperdae, CZ claims their Safari Classics in 505 Gibbs and 500 Jeffery weigh in at 10.94 lbs. Seems like their a pound lighter than advertised. Based on your datam My 500 Jeffery should weigh in at 10.75 lbs with the extra recoil reducer. I was hoping for it to weigh in at close to 11.25 lbs. They must've gone with a slimmer barrel contour.

Based on good advice from the guys who hwve them on this board, I'm going to start out with light loaded 535g Woodleigh using RL-15. I Figure a load that gets the 535 Woodleigh PPs going at 2000 fps should be a nice place to start. My recol numbers come ia impulse: 6.43, velocity 19.27 and recoil at 62 ft/lbs. For oomparison a 9 lb 416 Rigby shooting 400g bulleta at 2400fps comes in at: impulse 6.03, velocity 21, and recoil 63.37 ft/lbs.

Should be manageable wiht lighter loads.

Regards,

Chuck

Thanks for the advise. Reloading was already a must due to ammo cost. And, it will allow me to tweek down the loads. I'd like too try the Mt baldy 600 gr cast bullets, but hoping not to lead foul the bbl

I dont mean to complain, infact my complaint was with the 458 Lott being to easy. I wanted a challenge and I got it. This is good.

I will look for a sissy vest. My build is light. Maybe something designed for skeet/trap or a heavier product? A bit xtra shoulder padding might just be the ticket. An excuse for a Cabela road trip. Suggestions?

Hi Fourbore, My 505 Gibbs is based on a Granite Mountain Arms action, has a very straight stock and weighs in at 11 lb. I shoot the 600gn bullet with 130gn AR2209 powder for 2270fps and the 525gn bullet with 140gn AR2209 powder for 2500fps, they both feel about the same in recoil (AR2209 is the same as H4350). The recoil is stout, and takes a bit of practice to shoot well, but with the right technique it is not a problem. I can shoot 40 rounds a day no worries, no bruises. I think taking a pound off the weight would make a lot of difference though. Norma factory ammo has 137.5gn powder in it (I pulled one apart and weighted the charge). I have no idea what type of powder (most likely one of the slower Vihtavouri powders), and it only made 1900 fps in my rifle, yet the recoil was not significantly different to my own loads. I think the two things contributing to your high level of felt recoil are the lighter weight, and the heavier powder charge of what must be a slower powder than I am using. I think you are right though, a bit of shoulder padding will do the trick.

I might try one of these. cabelas catalog -- Looks light,...



This is the Browning Deluxe Shooters Vest.
# Contains a shock-absorbing recoil pad
# Reduces felt recoil up to 49% (I doubt this)

Is this a good choice for a hvy rifle or just designed for shotgun

In preparation for my 500 Jeffery I bought a PAST recoil pad and velcro'd a Limbsaver shoulder pad to it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Past-Magnu...TL090316134004r10514


http://www.limbsaver.com/2009/...ng_pad/index.php#two

Kind of a super absorbent pad for us recoil wussies lol

Regards,

Chuck

Maybe I try that limbsaver. Thanks

Installing a muzzle brake will reduce the felt recoil by 30-50%, depending on the powder amount. WEAR ELECTRONIC EARMUFFS...I do and I don't have ANY problem with any noise OR hearing critters running through the bush.

Your choice...a little noise or a LOT of recoil.

Enjoy your toys

This is a 6K ft-lb gun, not a 10K ft-lb gun. However, It will get down right unpleasant without a muzzel brake and F990 pad. Particularily if your are not experiernced in how to move with the recoil. Be careful with adding weight to the stock as its easy to screw up the balance and wind up with a gun that " orbits" on firing. Remember you have to carry that added weight alot longer than you will feel the pain of recoil if you hunt with it. I'd sugget you add a brake and a Pad and load down till your comfortable, then move up. Have someone who knows how to shoot a Gibbs class gun watch you shoot it and correct any flaws. Now you know why we told you to master your Gibbs before even considering guns in the .577-.600 range. There is a learning curve!-Rob

So Rob, that was your advise to master the 505 first. How did you know? yes, good advise. Indeed.

Hey fourbore, when you weighed your rifle, did you just put it on a bathroom scale, or did you weigh yourself with the rifle then weigh yourself without? Usually the scales have an accuracy window. That being said, mine's only accurate to plus/minus a half pound.

Regards,

Chuck

Fourbore- I knew, because I've made every mistake you have made and will make in the future. Been down all these roads and have learned a thing or two along the way. trouble was when I started Big Bores like the Gibbs were unobtainum, not like today! I had to build my own guns so I learned the hard way! I try and give everyone good advice. Some take it,some don't. You seem like a nice guy and I'd like to see you grow into the Big Bore Niche without developing a Shootaway class Flinch!-Rob

I guess you are right too question the accuracy of the scale. I set the guns down on the scale. I looked at the catalog and the Lott is listed at 10 and Gibbs is 11. My scale showed 9 and 10. So, probably my scale was reading a pound low. Since I do see the difference of 1 pound. Probably the gun is fine and Rod, hit the nail on the head, I need to practice.

ahhhh but which end would you rather be on just think what it feels like getting hit with it,damn thats gonna leave a mark........

Hi Rob, I'm going to try and stay away from the muzzle brake, but I am willing to load my 500 Jeffery down, and it should be 10 oz heaavier than fourbore's Gibbs. It should als kick less due to a smaller case capacity. Nonetheless I'm sure it will get my attention!

I'm looking forward to it arriving. Fourbore, that Norma ammo is $20 a round, one shot a day seems about right lol!

Best of luck with your Gibbs fourbore, and as always Rob thanks for the sound advice.

Chuck

338User,
Do you think that Norma uses MR2 in the PH ammo for the Gibbs? This is the powder that that they list in their manual for the 525 grain Woodleigh.

Where did all this muzzel brake fobia come from? Nothing and I repeat nothing reduces recoil like a good brake. Thats 50% guys. The difference between 100ft-lbs and 50 ft-lbs. You never hear your shot out in the field when hunting anyway so whats the issue? Sure in a covered range its loud, But in the field, you'll never hear a thing. Try it you'll become a believer. Otherwise you'll have to learn to deal with serious recoil and thats a learned skill. You were not born with it either.-Rob

I weighed my CZ on a medical scale with me on it so it should be within the accuracy range. To be exact it weighs in at 10.2 lbs., well short of the 10.94 advertised weight. From what I have gathered CZ installs a small mercury tube in their stock rifles. In time I will have a good stock man switch out the tube for a larger one and add a little weight in the front to keep the balance. The muzzle break does make a difference but it still kicks! I love mine, shoot it as much as I can, but if I every take it to Africa I will shoot it a lot more first.

Thanks viperidae. I figured the CZ numbers were a little on the high side.

quote:

Originally posted by doclee:
338User,
Do you think that Norma uses MR2 in the PH ammo for the Gibbs? This is the powder that that they list in their manual for the 525 grain Woodleigh.

Hi Doclee, I have no idea what they use, but at 137.5 gn and producing 1900 fps in my rifle, it must be quite a lot slower burning than what I am using.

quote:

Where did all this muzzel brake fobia come from? Nothing and I repeat nothing reduces recoil like a good brake. Thats 50% guys. The difference between 100ft-lbs and 50 ft-lbs. You never hear your shot out in the field when hunting anyway so whats the issue? Sure in a covered range its loud, But in the field, you'll never hear a thing. Try it you'll become a believer. Otherwise you'll have to learn to deal with serious recoil and thats a learned skill. You were not born with it either.-Rob

I was the original owner of the CZ550 Gibbs that ISS passed along to Rodney( glad to see that it has stayed in the AR family ) With the brake installed, the gun was not at all uncomfortable to shoot. Taking the brake off, however, was a different story. I'm not sure who makes the brake that CZ uses on it's Safari Classics, but it's a good one. It's also removeable, so if you don't want to hunt with it, you can take it off and screw on a thread protector.

I think there has been too much hokey armchair BS spread all over the net, at shooting ranges and over several bracers by armchairs who "neverdonit", concerning muzzle brakes...out of all the people I've hunted with only a few have EVER shot a gun with a MB because most never get much over a300 or 338 WM. Not ONE of the local group will shoot ANY of my larger bores with or without brakes. All I have to do is wave around one of those 12GaFH rounds and they scatter like quail....

Here is a load I picked out of my LD5 for the 505 Gibbs as an example...600 gr Woodleigh slug, 3.74" COAL, 10# gun, 24" barrel, 132 gr AA2700, 2200 fs at 44KPSI.

Recoil is 108 ftlb, 26 ft/sec...without brake..
55 ftlb, 19 f/s with a brake...which would you rather shoot??? I garoontee I'm a wuss, so guess which one I would pick

Here is Varmint Al's link to a recoil calculator. He also has some information on brakes.

http://www.varmintal.com/ashot.htm#Calculate_Recoil

RVB Precision also has some excellent information on muzzle brakes, how they function, myths, REALYO-TRULYO facts and figures...not hooch soaked drivel...or is it dribble.

http://www.rvbprecision.com/sh...h-muzzle-brakes.html

Check out the 12GaFH thread, there are several very nice brakes for that beast monster...makes is almost enjoyable to shoot... Hahahahahahaha

Enjoy your toy...You have a gem

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Where did all this muzzel brake fobia come from? You never hear your shot out in the field when hunting anyway so whats the issue? Rob

Besides fugly, I have to be aware that my hearing gets damaged even if I do not hear it.
One can live with fugly, and stupid is part of life, but the combination is unbareable.

I think we have a pretty big tent and I like a lot of stuff, even a Barrett .50 would be fun.

Where I am coming from with the CZ rifles is too have a tradition British African bolt gun. On a second level, I need to protect what little is left of my hearing. On a third level, I dont think semi-auto or muzzle breaks are sporting (for me only). Again, this is just me. I dont plan to go to Africa, so its more an image in my mind sort of thing.

I will accept the difficulty dealing with the recoil. The 505 maybe my max limit for shooting. It will take practice.

My next bigger gun, if there is one, will probably be too heavy for hunting. At some point things become impractical and you have to make some compromise. Some of the old really big guns ran 14-18 pounds, even heavier for some 4 bore.

I own the CZ 550 American Safari 458 Lott and it doesn't kick that bad at all, But I've heard that the 505 Gibbs loosins your bones. Have fun!
My lott weghts 10 lbs

What Robgunbuider and DGR Shooter said here is true, the CZ break takes what seems to be 50% felt recoil off making the rifle very calm under fire. The loads I'm using are about 106 lbs recoil force and can get to me after several shots unbreaked in a session, believe me the break helps and mine is removeable with a nice neat thread protector for use without it. Rodney.

I just dont get it. Some of You guys wanna shoot big bores bad enough to spend thousands of dollars on one and you limit yourselves unnecessarily from using the MOST EFFECTIVE tool there is to reduce recoil? I guess its the logic of I cant see anymore, but Glasses make me look fugly so I wont wear them.
Does that go for scopes too? Your hearing? Wear reactive ear muffs! you know the kind that look like hearing aids so you dont look fugly in the field! They blank the sound of MB's too!
BTW I can almost guarantee you that unless you really know how to roll with recoil, a steady diet of 100ft-lb recoil is going to result in a serious flinch eventually. That in turn will translate into scope cuts and broken fingers. To each his own, but dont complain about recoil as you know what to do.-Rob

Yea, to each his own, always.
Me, I do not get the facination of shooting a big gun that handles like a small gun. Then why not shoot a smaller gun? I love to shoot my friends 8 lbs .505 Gibbs, but that is to enjoy the recoil - it is an adrenaline kick. But the thing would be absoulutely hazardous to use as a DGR.
I would love to shoot a 12 GFH or a .600 OK, but I want the full package, thanks - else, were is the fun?

I have tried every kind of hearing protection there is, and never forund one that does not ruin the sound picture. And to me, without my ears, it is not hunting anymore, it is just shooting live targets.

AS jeffe says, opinions vary...

Bent- My Borchardt 12GaFH doesnt have a MB so you wont need hearing protection. You must not be married or you'd know the value of SELECTIVE POOR HEARING! If you ever cross the pond I'd be happy to let you have the FULL EXPERIENCE!All 250ft-lbs of it! If you can handle that we can go to 2000gr bullets for the enhanced EXPERIENCE! It will bring tears to your eyes and funds to your orthopod! Its quite Sveldt and pretty too! I'd of course want to let you shoot lesser guns first like the .600Ok to insure the QUALITY of YOUR EXPERIENCE is everything you imagine it would be. I simply get VIDEO rights. Just Kidding You!-Rob

Some logic, Bent...receiving the heavy recoil which can damage the skeletal system, nerves, eyes, circulatory system AND bones of the ear, just so you can get your S&M "kicks" doesn't compute in my book...opinions vary, of course...and so does logic and reasoning. AND...you still get way beyond the limit of the ear's ability sustain itself and all the little hairs...with or without a muzzle brake ...WHENEVER you fire off even a small shooter WITHOUT EAR PROTECTION.

So where's the logic??? You want to get a woody and go deaf at the same time, by spanking it in a different manor, by getting pounded by some cannon, WITHOUT EAR PROTECTION OR A MUZZLE BRAKE...go right ahead...it's YOUR body...I only wish someone would have kicked my azz with some truth 40 years ago...maybe I would be able to hear what you said instead of needing it written down.

I did learn a few things over the years...men are basically disposable because they don't have sense enough not to be lead around by their "jeans". Nature endowed us with some major assets, but left out most of the "logic of survival" otherwise why would we do the things we do and call it "MACHO".

Enjoy your toys.