I am collecting 458WM data.

What do you use?
What do you like?

I am thinking of useing Trailboss for my powderpuff load.
Now I am looking for ideas on faster loads (300gr, 350gr, 405gr (lead & jacketed), and then something heavier).

The 458WM is as much gun as I can handle, but then I am old, have arthritis in my neck, and my eye Doc worries about recoil and detached retinas.

I tried 4895, but found that it would not get the velocities I wanted within acceptable pressure. This is my IMR 4895 load

500gr Hornaday
66gr IMR4895
210M
2050fps

Guys here say that is enough velocity to kill anything you'd shoot with the 458.

400gr Rem Flat point is developed to practice with and for deer and hogs. The bullet is inexpensive as 458 bullets go:

400gr Rem FNSP
69gr Surplus 4895
215M
2200fps

This is a Elephant load. Others here who have hunted elephant with the 458 say that this load is sufficient duplicating the 450 double rifle loading:

480gr Hornaday Solid
70gr X-terminator
215M
2200fps

This is a load I played around with as a soft point load:

450gr A-Square
69gr X-terminator
215M
2275fps

Almost everyone raved about X-terminator in the 458WM. I found it to be easy to work with and developed the energy necessary. Hope this helps. Kudude
2200fps

ddunn,

Shoot me a PM and I'll reply with my loads. After some fellows used my powder charge, but swapped bullets without reference to a manual or starting low and working up I stopped posting them in public.

Kudude's 480gr solid load would certainly work for elephants or cape buff, it exceeds the tried and true performance of the 450NE's with their 480gr bullets.

I've tried 480gr Woodleighs but because of cannelure position and the extra 20grs prefer the 500 Woodleighs over the 480's. I would try the new Hornaday's too. Haven't gotten around to them myself.

I think 2050fps is barely sufficient for bull elephants. I've shot a couple of elephants with the 500gr Woodleighs at 2050fps and they worked, but the difference in performance with the same bullet at 2145fps is remarkable.

JPK

Thanks

Since this is my first time loading something this large and powerful, what would be the signs of pressure/over-pressure.

ddunn,

Get yourself a couple of reloading manuals if you do not already have them, and read the front section. It usually contains good information on pressure signs.

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
ddunn,

Get yourself a couple of reloading manuals if you do not already have them, and read the front section. It usually contains good information on pressure signs.

George

Been there, done that.

But I know different cartridges show different pressure signs.
My 44mag has flat primers long before max pressure. I see the same signs from mid-level loads through over book.

One AR-15 doesn't show any signs of pressure until the primer pockets get loose. The other one shows other signs.

One of my 308s has primer flow with factory loads, surplus ammo and even low end loads. My other 308 doesn't do that.

I either haven't pushed the 45-70 far enough or I can't see the signs. I reached a velocity I was happy with and stopped.

45Super was interesting. With one barrel/gun combo, I get case buldge first. With another, I saw very flat primers. I went beyond that load, and the primers never became loose, but began to flow.

I don't know how a 458WM will manafest the signs. Additionally it s my first (and probably last) belted cartridge.

You can get all the reloading data you could want off the powder manufacturers web sites.

For a group of people I consider very intelligent, we seem to be having a communication problem. I was tempted to post this on another board, but figured I would find more knowledgeable/experienced people here.

I have a couple reloading book. I have data mined these books and the official data from the web and put this data in to a spreadsheet. This gives me 559 loads. Anything out of the norm can be reviewed and/or excluded. Additionally we know that some company’s velocity numbers cannot be trusted.

I could spend the rest of my life working loads up. I am looking for practical experience.

I like 79.0 grains of IMR 4831 with a 215 primer and Remington 405 grain soft points at about 3.235" COL (rear cannelure). It clocks a hair over 1800 fps in my 20" .458 WM. It's light on the shoulder and cheap to shoot with bulk Remington bullets. As a bonus, it does a number on deer, black bear, and hogs.

On the same subject, would you be able to achieve over 2100fps with mild pressure from a 500grn bullets in 458win with a 23" barrel and if so what type of powder?

quote:

Originally posted by ddunn:
For a group of people I consider very intelligent, we seem to be having a communication problem. I was tempted to post this on another board, but figured I would find more knowledgeable/experienced people here.

I have a couple reloading book. I have data mined these books and the official data from the web and put this data in to a spreadsheet. This gives me 559 loads. Anything out of the norm can be reviewed and/or excluded. Additionally we know that some company’s velocity numbers cannot be trusted.

I could spend the rest of my life working loads up. I am looking for practical experience.

You have a chrono?

If you can't chrono the loads you're pretty much flying blind.

That's not news, right?

quote:

Originally posted by Zedo:

quote:

Originally posted by ddunn:
For a group of people I consider very intelligent, we seem to be having a communication problem. I was tempted to post this on another board, but figured I would find more knowledgeable/experienced people here.

I have a couple reloading book. I have data mined these books and the official data from the web and put this data in to a spreadsheet. This gives me 559 loads. Anything out of the norm can be reviewed and/or excluded. Additionally we know that some company’s velocity numbers cannot be trusted.

I could spend the rest of my life working loads up. I am looking for practical experience.

You have a chrono?

If you can't chrono the loads you're pretty much flying blind.

That's not news, right?

I find it funny. You are talking but you are not saying anything. You wouldn't happen to be a politician?

You can’t even say, I use X powder with good results.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
On the same subject, would you be able to achieve over 2100fps with mild pressure from a 500grn bullets in 458win with a 23" barrel and if so what type of powder?

I have not tried 500gr bullets.

ddunn

I have been a 458 fan for many years, and have worked with 458 Winchester quite a bit in past years. I won't publish complete data, but for 450 gr bullets such as Swift and Barnes Solid combinations at 2200-2250 fps depending on rifle RL 15 does a great job, with pressure being around 55000 psi or less in my rifles, case study agrees with my pressure trace. For 500 gr bullets I am able to get from 2120 fps-2170 fps depending on the bullet also with RL 15, pressures the same 54000 psi or less, case study good. Meaning never a sticky case, not excessive case expansion and so forth. These bullets and combinations are excellent for the heavies--for lighter thin skinned critters I have used a 400 gr Swift A with RL 7 giving 2325-2400 fps depending on barrel length from 22-24 inches. The heavy bullets are all with 24 inch barrel Winchester M70s. Lighter bullets 300-350 grs are great with IMR 4198 and RL 7. If you would like more details I will share drop me a note at michael458@earthlink.net. Hope that helps a little anyway.
Michael

Although I am not loading 450-500gr bullets, I would love to put your data into the spreadsheet. I will be emailling you.

For the public forum, I am very interested in your stopping point.
Did you stop because it is the max load in the reloading book?
Did you stop because you reached the velocity you were looking for, and it was accurate?
Did you stop because you saw signs of pressure?


My max 405gr load was my max because of pain and it happened to be accurate. I am not even close to max book.
I have since gotten better at shooting my 458WM. My powder puff Trailboss loads are more accurate than my AA2015 loads. So I think I can get a more accurate hard hitting load and I should be able to go faster & heavier.

74 grains of 4895 behind 500 grain Hornadys

Woodleigh makes the 480gr softs and solids with a 458 Win Mag cannelure. These will take up less case capacity then the 480gr intened for the 450 Nitro or the 500gr 458's

It is a special order and Huntington's can get them for you. I have a freind who just happened to have a couple of boxes so I snagged them.

I have a 458 Win Mag on the way so this is the bullet I want to develop a load for. 20grs less to push and a little more case capacity. I believe it will be easy to get 2,250+fps with a 24 inch barrel without any pressure problems with modern powders.

michael458, THANK YOU!!!

quote:

Originally posted by gwhjack:
Woodleigh makes the 480gr softs and solids with a 458 Win Mag cannelure. These will take up less case capacity then the 480gr intened for the 450 Nitro or the 500gr 458's

This weight bullet with a 23" barreled light bolt rifle set with a velocity at around 2180fps to 2200fps sounds just the ticket for Elephant and Buffalo

My load for 500 gn wood's is 74 gn's of 2206H,put in the powder and hold your loading block against the side of your case tumbler for a minute,the powder will subside and you can seat the bullet with very little powder compression gives 2150 fps from 24''barrel regards from Dhufish. Austrlia

74 grains of IMR 4895 under a 450-grain Swift is a great load, though the A-frames are kind of pricey. You can use the same charge with a 500-grain Hornady as well, as both are limited by case capacity.

For puff loads, I use a 400-grain cast over 13 grains of Red Dot. I've shot off about 500 of those with no pressure signs, hangfires, or other warning signs.

I don't like to give exact loads over the Internet. Get yourself a chronograph and reloading manuals to work them up.

I wanted to shoot 450 grain bullets--North Fork solids and TSX expanding bullets. The North Fork has a large flat point and will penetrate as well or better than a 500 grain rounded solid. I found that AA2230 was a better powder than H4895. It's denser and there's less compression. I loaded my 450 grain bullets to 2250 fps, stopping there because there was no reason to go any higher. No real signs of pressure. In fact, I used the same charge to get 2200 fps with 500 grain Barnes solids, still with no obvious signs of pressure, but the recoil of that load was substantially more.

Beware of published loading data. One load, one grain less than maximum in the Hornady manual, gave 2376 fps with a 500 grain bullet. The bolt was very hard to open. Needless to say, I did not fire a second shot with that load.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Beware of published loading data. One load, one grain less than maximum in the Hornady manual, gave 2376 fps with a 500 grain bullet. The bolt was very hard to open. Needless to say, I did not fire a second shot with that load.

Did it show any other signs of high pressure?

quote:

Originally posted by ddunn:

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Beware of published loading data. One load, one grain less than maximum in the Hornady manual, gave 2376 fps with a 500 grain bullet. The bolt was very hard to open. Needless to say, I did not fire a second shot with that load.

Did it show any other signs of high pressure?

How many signs do you want?

On advice from Indy last spring, I began to load my Browning FN-LE .458WM with the AA2230 and preliminary results with 450 SAFS look very good. My rifle is now being customized, but,a SAF or perhaps a NF 450 at 2250 is as close to "perfect" for my uses of this than anything else I can think of.

I have close to 200 SAFs of the 400 gr-FP style from .45-70 ammo I loaded and tested in my Browning 1886 SRC repro and am loading those over H-322 and they zip right along, should also be excellent in Grizzly country and for Moose.

I KNOW that one doesn't NEED a .458WM in BC hunting, but, I enjoy playing with this rifle/round and it sure doesn't hurt to have a.458 when alone on the northern BC coast among a lot of bears. It's all about fun, anyway, it would be mega-boring if we all used only .30-06s.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by ddunn:

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Beware of published loading data. One load, one grain less than maximum in the Hornady manual, gave 2376 fps with a 500 grain bullet. The bolt was very hard to open. Needless to say, I did not fire a second shot with that load.

Did it show any other signs of high pressure?

How many signs do you want?

In smaller cartridges, if you have one, you usually have others.

More is always better.

Since this is the first post by anyone stating they reached max pressure, I want to know all the signs.

I shot my 458WM offhand today with open sights at 200yds.The big hole on the top left of the target is the shot.I had a bunch of loaded rds left from my load development and reached in the box and pulled out a swift a frame rd.The 458WM is a great rd out to 200yds.[URL= ]458@200yds[/URL] The only problem is the way the CZ kicks.It nearly broke my nose.Too much muzzle lift.I wish it was like my Ruger.

quote:

Originally posted by ddunn:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by ddunn:

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Beware of published loading data. One load, one grain less than maximum in the Hornady manual, gave 2376 fps with a 500 grain bullet. The bolt was very hard to open. Needless to say, I did not fire a second shot with that load.

Did it show any other signs of high pressure?

How many signs do you want?

In smaller cartridges, if you have one, you usually have others.

More is always better.

Since this is the first post by anyone stating they reached max pressure, I want to know all the signs.

2376 FPS is all the sign that I would need to know that it is too much pressure

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
2376 FPS is all the sign that I would need to know that it is too much pressure

I agree,

Velocity is a very valid sign.
Stiff bold is a sign.

I would expect expansion in the brass (someplace) or flat primer, but so far no one has pointed to that as a sign...?

As for me, I have a pain threshhold that I am bumping up against. So far no blood, but I have been black and blue.

2376

With the older Hornady Interbond and Encapsulated 500 grain bullets 74 grains of H-335, a Federal 215 cap, Winchester brass, and a good crimp worked wonders.The soft hit .75 inches higher at a hundred than the solid. 2150 fps with the solid, and 2125 fps with the soft.

With the new Dangerous Game solids and softs, 75.5 grains of H-335, Winchester brass, a CCI-250 cap, and a firm crimp is close. I use separate seaters and a Lee crimp die. I also use the old copper jacketed round nose with this same load with success.

These new Hornady's aren't quite as accurate in my CZ-550 .458 Winchester as the older series, but they should work.

quote:

Originally posted by ddunn:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
2376 FPS is all the sign that I would need to know that it is too much pressure

I agree,

Velocity is a very valid sign.
Stiff bold is a sign.

I would expect expansion in the brass (someplace) or flat primer, but so far no one has pointed to that as a sign...?

As for me, I have a pain threshhold that I am bumping up against. So far no blood, but I have been black and blue.

Measuring case head expansion and reading primers, as well as stiff bolt lift have all been proven to be unreliable in estimating pressure. Excess
speed is a no brainer

quote:

Originally posted by Walter Prociuk:
With the older Hornady Interbond and Encapsulated 500 grain bullets 74 grains of H-335, a Federal 215 cap, Winchester brass, and a good crimp worked wonders.The soft hit .75 inches higher at a hundred than the solid. 2150 fps with the solid, and 2125 fps with the soft.

With the new Dangerous Game solids and softs, 75.5 grains of H-335, Wichester brass, a CCI-250 cap, and a firm crimp is close. I use separate seaters and a Lee crimp die. I also use the old copper jacketed round nose with this same load with success.

These new Hornady's aren't quite as accurate in my CZ-550 .458 Winchester as the older series, but they should work.

.


Those sound like good loads ....

I too like H335 for the heavyweight 450s and 500s. It is recommended by a couple manuals. It's a ball powder which obviates severe compression. Also, to lessen recoil consider the 350s: Hornady or Speer for comparative cheap shooting and working up loads. I've done that, and gone to the 350TSX for hunting NA. In my CZ 550, it can be safely pushed to 2700+fps, because of it's 3.8" magazine. In effect, it's equal to a Lott. But the point is, it's not easy to get pressure signs in a 458WM unless you use a very fast powder. The late Finn Aagaard got 2188 fps from a Federal factory loaded 500gr and his 23" barrel. The "problem" with most 458WMs is the excessive "freebore" of about .75" when loaded to SAAMI specs in COL. Aagaard's "freebore" was only .125" and there were No signs of excessive pressure. It's no problem today, with todays powders, to attain 2300 fps with a 450gr and 2200 fps with a 500gr at sane psi from a 24" tube.

Your going to get the higher velocity with the least pressure with AA2230 powder doesn't matter if it's 400 grain bullets or 500 grain bullets. H-335 is a good powder but velocity being equal, higher pressure than AA2230. R-7 gave me consistant accuracy but to get the velocity over 2050 in a 21 inch barreled rifle produced too much pressure.

Dirk

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
Your going to get the higher velocity with the least pressure with AA2230 powder doesn't matter if it's 400 grain bullets or 500 grain bullets. H-335 is a good powder but velocity being equal, higher pressure than AA2230. R-7 gave me consistant accuracy but to get the velocity over 2050 in a 21 inch barreled rifle produced too much pressure.

Dirk

It's to be assumed you're referring to 500s with excess psi with RL-7 at "over' 2050 fps. Otherwise no problem using it with 400s at over 2050. With 400s, I can get over 2000 using it in my 45-70s.

According to BARNES No.4, TAC is one of the best for their bullets in a 458. It's similar to H335.

I like a 480 gr Woodleigh over a number of different powders.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
Your going to get the higher velocity with the least pressure with AA2230 powder doesn't matter if it's 400 grain bullets or 500 grain bullets. H-335 is a good powder but velocity being equal, higher pressure than AA2230. R-7 gave me consistant accuracy but to get the velocity over 2050 in a 21 inch barreled rifle produced too much pressure.

Dirk

It's to be assumed you're referring to 500s with excess psi with RL-7 at "over' 2050 fps. Otherwise no problem using it with 400s at over 2050. With 400s, I can get over 2000 using it in my 45-70s.

Your assumption is correct, 500 grain bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
I like a 480 gr Woodleigh over a number of different powders.

The standard 480gr Woodleigh has the cannelure in the wrong place for the 458wm (but the right place for the much larger cases of the 450NE rounds, the 3 1/4", the No2 and the 500/450) The forward position of the cannelure takes up alot of powder space and some of the best powders for the 450-500gr bullets need all the space they can get. I found no advantage to using the 480ge Woodleigh over the 500, with little velocity difference, more compression issues and 20grs less bullet.

On the other hand, I've been told that you can special order the Woodleigh 480's with the cannelure place more rearward for the 458wm, and that might make it work better, possibly even better than the 500's.

AA2230 gives me 2145fps with a load that is low to middlin in the Hoorniday book, to which I was referred by Woodleigh. My rifle has 26" barrels though.

I get erratic velocities with H 4895 and 500's in this velocity range. But H 4895 burns cleaner with the 450's, imo. I only load 450's to ~2200fps+/-, since this is the velocity at which they shoot well in my rifle.

JPK