The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores THE GOOD, THE BAD, AND THE UGLY: Barnes BulletsGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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It seems that since Remington took over Barnes Bullets, things have deteriorated? Rusty McGee ordered some Barnes "supposed" .411"/300-grain TSX FB bullets to further his 400 Whelen Petrov load development. His groups went from bugholes with the earlier make of same bullet, to hat-sized with the latest batch. The bad batch box (on left below) has an add-on paper tape on the end label that reads "30516/41130" that is placed to cover where the good batch box is printed "41130" matching the rest of the label (on right below):  Here is what the bad batch bullet bases look like:     I appears that an undersize punch was used to push the bullets through a sizing die. Every bullet in the box is marked or marred to some degree, some much worse than others. Like the ones that were really big were harder to push through. Some of the bullet bases are actually concave. Some of them are visibly out of round or flattened in an end-on view of the base. Rusty has done some weighing and measuring, and says the bullets are definitely highly variable in diameters and weights. He also showed me some .338-caliber TSX bullets that had the same punch marks on the bullet bases.  I am guessing the Barnes TSX bullets are "hammer forged" not CNC or Swiss screw turned bullets. After the rough forming of the bullet, then the multiple cannelures or grooves are cut with "Multi-Dremel-Tool" cutting wheels. Then they are sized and tumbled to polish them up a bit. Barnes Bullets QC team:  | ||
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Remington certainly has quality problems these days, with the terrible quality marlins, the problems with the bolt guns they have been making the last several years. It is no great surprise they now have a problem with the barnes line. | |||
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What the heck!! Remington bought Barnes. Oh crap. Well it makes sense that they ruin bullets by pushing them too hard. The king of push feed. Yuk. Well GS Custom makes great bullets. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Can you post pictures of the "good" ones? Even the sticker comes from a different print. If these were electronics, I'd say "Chinese fakes"... Philip | |||
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I thought technology made firearms and ammo better today? | |||
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They do, and the purpose of the information here is so that one can tell the difference between those who say - and do as they say, and those who say and then do something else. | |||
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Remington/Freedom Group etc should sell all their holdings to someone with more than two functioning brain cells and who is not ruled solely by profit! | |||
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I'm glad I have a supply of the older Barnes bullets. | |||
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Further proof that companies should not be run by bean counters. Shades of what happened to Winchester back in the '60s. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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Counterfeit Chinese bullets? That's about as believable as this incredibly bad quality from Barnes.  The older-make good quality bullets look like the new ones but don't have punch marks and deformities of bullet base. Here is an example of good QC:  | |||
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The problem is people keep buying the "Name" long after the founding owner has sold the company which originally made a fine product. [Just like Schwinn Bicycles and so many others.] D/R Hunter Correct bullet placement, combined with the required depth of bullet penetration, results in an anchored animal... | |||
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They should realize that 1 bad batch of bullets will get any hunter to swear off their product and tell 10 friends. Might be time to look at GMX or GS Custom or North Fork. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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this is a sad time for Barnes, as it is with every other firearms industry Freedom Group has purchased. I would call Connie and see what she says. I am glad I stocked up a year or two ago, before this shitstorm blew into Mona, Utah. Rich | |||
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One would think, after the failures of the original X bullets, they'd have learned that. Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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Everything Remington buys goes down in quality. first marlin, now barnes. Two companies I liked. | |||
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We shoot 150g Partitions in our 270s, but my 500 Jeffery really liked the 570g TSX. I guess I'll have to load up the 570g A-Frames I have and see how they do. I do have about 300 of the older 570g TSX bullets though. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Having used the original Barnes X bullets extensively, in several calibers, shooting hundreds of game animals in Africa, ranging from Dunkers to Cape buffalo, I never had a single failure!!? | |||
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I too use the X, though these days mostly the TTSX, but I have seen the original X fail to open. I don't know why, maybe it wasn't made of the right material, wasn't cut right, whatever. But I had a box of 375's that only made pencil holes. Put three in a moose, and they all arrowed right through. Did the same a couple of months later on a black bear (from same box, I was a young dumb kid). There are quite a few other stories on the net of X failures. Though I am very glad that you've not experienced one. Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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 Obviously all animals shot with these bullets died so one could maintain that these bullets were successful. The shapes tell their own story. | |||
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Gerard, What make of bullets are in your picture. Thanks! Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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Graybird, The original photo was published here on AR and I have it filed under 'other'. Maybe the original publisher will see it and tell us. It appears that the bullets mushroom with four petals and that they are stamped not turned. That excludes RSA manufacturers. | |||
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Gerard, You are the last person on the planet who should be criticizing others business practices given all the slack people cut you. Shall we go look up all the threads and complaints where you charged customer's credit cards and didn't ship bullets for months at a time? Where you didn't answer emails? Where you essentially took interest free loans from your customers? Now with respect to your post Gerard, in response to Graybird's question about who is the manufacturer you replied: "Graybird, The original photo was published here on AR and I have it filed under 'other'. Maybe the original publisher will see it and tell us. It appears that the bullets mushroom with four petals and that they are stamped not turned. That excludes RSA manufacturers." We can only assume you don't actually know(otherwise why wouldn't you tell us?). If that is true, then it is pretty sleazy for you to be posting that picture in a thread about Barnes bullets implying they are Barnes bullets if you don't know. So do you know whose bullets they are? or don't you? Are those your calculations at the bottom of the photo? Additionally, everyone of those bullets in that picture is an X bullet and not a TSX. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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RIP, Did Rusty contact Barnes? What was their response? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Oh come now Mike, you expect veracity on the internet?  Interesting that the OP runs to post on the web and makes no mention of contacting the manufacturer first. Maybe that is just me but having owned a business I know that stuff happens and nobody is perfect and I always appreciated the customer the most who pointed out where I had a problem or could improve. FWIW I have never experienced anything but excellent performance from Barnes ever since they came out with the X bullet. Of course 90% of my experience is in 308cal so that does not speak to their entire product line. And just one more point. I don't think I have EVER recovered a Barnes bullet from an animal. They have been virtually 100% pass throughs so where do all those recovered bullets come from? They look like the ones I have dug out of the backstop behind my target stand.  Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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They certainly seem to pass through everything I've shot them at up here in AK. Infact, if one were to experience a failure, I would expect the bullet to be more likely to penetrate fully than less likely Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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Mike_Detorre Where did that come from? Who said anything about business practices? Yep, please do that, look up the threads. Make sure you include this one. Then we shall see that exporting to the USA was not easy to start with and then became far more difficult. We shall see that, in many cases, we shipped the same order twice, three times and, in one or two cases four times. We shall also see that some buyers took advantage of the situation and claimed they never took delivery of the first or second shipment where we have proof that they did, unfortunately after we reshipped. Every person who ordered from us received what they ordered and it came pretty close to sinking the GSC business. Many people who said they ordered and paid, never ordered and never paid. We paid hefty school money here. We shall also see that delivery is the only complaint we ever had. The product is completely beyond reproach and as fault free as you can get anywhere on earth. Just the delivery kept on bugging us. We have fixed that by starting manufacturing in the USA. What more do you want? Your nose is out of joint about something. I am sorry about that but it seems that there is nothing I can do about it. I know now. I took the trouble to find the original and have renamed my photo to reflect which manufacturer they are. I have also placed it in my Barnes folder. The original is here. Not likely. I have compared other captions I have done and there is a distinct difference. That puts it in context, does it not? Take that up with Saeed. He published the original as recovered from animals that he shot and, given the number of animals he has shot, I believe what he says. | |||
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Do we need to point something out to Barnes? They did not realize that they are now having to use push-through dies to re-size their precision-stamped bullets? Oh, wait, maybe it was just because Lemuel picked the wrong size base punch? Yep, I better call and tell them to keep an eye on Lemuel in the push-through sizing department. And maybe figure out why Rufus in packaging department is gluing white paper labels onto the formerly flash TSX boxes. Reckon Rufus thinks that is like the fortune in a fortune cookie? Yep, call Barnes ASAP! Great idea! Save Barnes from Lemuel and Rufus! Barnes might never catch on to Rufus and Lemuel unless I do that.  Maybe Rufus and Lemuel are doing double duty as production engineers and quality control inspectors, interchangeably! Barnes needs to be warned about separation of duties!   | |||
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I get that its Rufus on the right and Lemuel on the left, but who's the tall dude in the middle?  "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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| one of us |
But, going back to Saeed's post and the picture provided by Gerard, it would seem that Saeed is perfectly happy with the performance of the Barnes X bullets. A single bad batch of bullets doesn't constitute an entire company melt down, yet it does illustrate that something might have fell thru the cracks. We've all returned something at some point in our life be it a tool from the local hardware store, a busted motor still under warranty with less than 10K miles, or possibly even a bad batch of bullets. It happens! Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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I just had to call Barnes about this. I walked their media relations head Brett thru to this thread, and he could not believe it. It was sneaking up on quitting time yesterday, but he was going to go pull samples from that lot number and check first thing this morning. I agree, they should not have gotten by the inspectors; but Barnes has had a solid (no pun intended  ) this should be brought to their attention and given a chance to fix/replace the problem bullets.jmho, Rich | |||
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Yeah but it is so much more fun to trash a company on the internet than send them an email. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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ISS has informed them of their negligence. OK ...  | |||
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I notice that these are the .411 bullets that were not shooting well. It's funny, but the only rifle that would shoot the original Barnes X bullet accurately was my 400 Whelen. I could never get the X bullets to shoot well in any other caliber (270 Win, 35 Whelen, 404 Jeffery). However, the TSX shot well in any caliber I tried them in. I have to believe that Barnes would swap out those bullets for you. It would be interesting to run some concentricity testing on them. When you roll them across a glass table do they wobble? | |||
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I have had nothing but excellent results with Barnes X, X-Cannelured, XLC, TSX, and TTSX bullets in the past, from the first full-bearing, non-cannelured shafts with flat base, to the latest "high tech." My first trip to Africa in 2001 I used the old X-Bullet .375/300-grainer in a .375 H&H on plains game. My first African kill was a blue wildebeest at 150-yards, one shot through the heart and lungs and out the other side. It ran about 50 yards and dropped dead. That was a 0.75-MOA-3-shot performer in my tuned-up Pre-64 M70. I was flabbergasted to see something as foul as the subject of this thread emanating from Barnes. Something is rotten and it ain't in Denmark. | |||
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Barnes has contacted Rusty for a return of the foul bullets. No explanations yet as to how this happened. | |||
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I did it, rolled the bullets across a glass countertop at Rusty's establishment yesterday. Instead of a smooth purr as they rolled there was a "clack ... clack ... clack ..." noise, one clack for each revolution. Not enough wobble for my eyes to see, but enough wobble for my ears to hear. Concentric bullets do not clack. These bullets smack the glass with a high or low spot as they roll. The Barnes PR guy talked to Rusty by telephone. He took notes from that conversation with member "roughone" from Falls of Rough, KY. He offerred no explanation for the foul bullets. He is getting what's left of one box of bullets, but Rusty shot up another box, before he realized how bad they were. He has a receipt for two boxes, hope he gets reimbursed for two boxes. And let us hope the mystery of how this happened is solved, and does not happen again. I am but one ball carrier, grateful for the handoff to ISS for carrying the ball to Barnes. Hope they don't drop the ball. That would be bad PR. | |||
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Thanks for the follow-up RIP. Be interested to find out what they say. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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It is an odd thing, that the first known issue with Barnes in decades comes soon after their sale. Let's just hope that this was a one-time oops, and that they take the proper care in fixing it. | |||
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No Kidding! Where I live in the communist republic of Kalifornia we can't use lead bullets. If Barnes goes down hill I'll have to switch every centerfire I own to E-Tips or GMX or? Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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Or CEB MTHs or GSC HVs... Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores THE GOOD, THE BAD, AND THE UGLY: Barnes Bullets
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