I'm going to start building my big rifle. I'm thinking I'd like to build it on a model 70 action (?) but am open to suggestions. I wan't a .458 Winchester Mag. But I am open to other ideas. The reason being brass and ammo is readily available here. I also wan't to build it on a standard length action. If possible. I wan't to hear from everyone shooting a large caliber bolt gun, what works for them. What doesn't. Sights, scopes, barrels, stocks, actions, triggers, recoil pads etc. I can't afford a double, so I'm not too interested in one of those at this time. I'm going to buy the stuff, piece by piece and build from there. I've also got a stock in the making. I've selected some dense birch. Nice grain and should be quite strong. But I may select another stock. Synthetic? Around here, it would be used mostly at the range for kicks, (!) but would also be carried for moose and elk, the odd gopher or when there's the chance of running into grizz. I will also hunt Africa one day. Any input would be much appreciated. This will be fun and I am looking foward to reading all the replies. Thanks. Jason.

go 458 Lott--you can still use 458 win mag in it, but also load it up to what it's meant to be--that's why I bought one even though I have a 458 win--I don't have it yet, so I can't comment on sights, but there's a pretty good thread on it either in this section or up in the African Hunting forum(I think)--- I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet sight wise--I may leave it as an open sighted rig, eventhough a lowpower(1x or 1.5) scope just seems right to put on it with QD rings--ah the decisions -good luck and have fun---chris

I would say a .458 Lott as well ...

Although, I am, and have always been, a great fan of the .416 Rigby, so I have to throw that one in just as an obligatory if nothing else. The Rigby is a nice low-pressure gun that's not terribly hard to find brass or reloading information for - or even factory ammo.

You can't go wrong with a Lott though, especially since you can always back down to .458 Win with it.

Neither the Lott or the Rigby will have any problems downing anything that walks the surface of the Earth, or most anything that swims

Go with the 458 Lott, an extremely versatile round with a broad selection of bullets and loadings: 45/70 cast plinking, 300-405 grain medium game, to near 460 Wby dangerous game. I'd buy a CZ550, ZKK-602 or the new M-70.

If you're building a rifle the M70 or a Mauser action is always your best place to start. The fellas here can steer you towards the best choice in barrel, trigger, etc. Is birch a common wood for rifle stocks though? Not sure, just asking...

I do enjoy the .458 Win Mag though and wanted to comment that it's a fun and easy round to work with. Mine's a Ruger M77 with standard length action that's smooth as butter. I have a reduced load I like alot that's cheap to load and accurate and also a 2100+fps load with the 500gr Hornady RN using Re7 (no not a compressed load, you can still hear the powder in the case when u shake it).

Good luck with your project, sounds like fun and I know you'll enjoy it. The .458 is a great round and brass/components are very easy to find. Recoil really isn't that awful IMHO, it's just a good shove if you have a properly fitted rifle.

The Lott is an option too of course, depends on if you need those velocities with the 500gr bullet. If nothing else you can download the Lott to whatever velocity suits your needs and recoil tolerance. But you'll have to go with a Magnum length action if you choose the Lott.

I think most people would be well served by spending a lot of time with a 375 before buying a 458 Win or Lott.

For the type of hunting you describe, I think you'd be best served by a 375 or 416 Remington. If this is to be primarily a range rifle, then a 458 makes some sense because of the loading flexibility described by FLA3006.

Seriously reconsider building the stock from birch. English or Bastogne are better choices, otherwise go synthetic or laminated. I'd buy a factory rifle first and then decide what type of custom I want.

I agree with ForrestB about the Birch stock and the smaller caliber. If you haven't much experience shooting the larger calibers the recoil change from say a 7MM Magnum etc. to even the .375 H&H is signifigant. And if the weight of the rifle is not kept up around 8.5 to 9 pounds the recoil again creeps up to the uncomfortable range for the unconditioned shooter of larger calibers. When I mention "unconditioned" simply is the more you shoot the big ones the more you get used to it. To a point! No one I know goes to the range the first time and fires 20 to 30 rounds through a "thumper". I'd recommend starting with carefully sighting it in a little at a time and don't waste shots. Maybe taking intervals of an hour to two between sessions or even day to day session would be better. You'll see what I talking about when you start. Good luck in your choice and good shooting! Mike

Well, now I got me another project! I just ordered a 1895 Winchester reciever. Can you say .405 baby?

I would buy a new Ruger in .458Lott or a CZ or M70 & go from there w/ customization. I'll agree that Birch would not be my 1st choice in a stock wood. If you want a lighter wood think of a figured maple or mesquite. You want something solid for a big bore.

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Originally posted by ForrestB:
I think most people would be well served by spending a lot of time with a 375 before buying a 458 Win or Lott.....Seriously reconsider building the stock from birch. English or Bastogne are better choices, otherwise go synthetic or laminated. I'd buy a factory rifle first and then decide what type of custom I want.

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I totally agree with Forrest B. If you haven't had much experience with big bores, go with the 375 first. And if you aren't really likely to hunt dangerous game, it makes even more sense. I'd also start with a factory rifle before I built a custom unless you've built other customs. And don't use birch for any stock. Forrest A.

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I think most people would be well served by spending a lot of time with a 375 before buying a 458 Win or Lott

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I agree even though it is not mandatory, just a good place to start. I think the big thing is that there is a bit of difference between just getting a "big bore" and getting a "big bore" AND liking it, enjoying it and cherishing it.

If you are working up thru the cartridge ranks, and especially if you have time before your "African departure" then a stop off at the 375H&H station is a good thing. This cartridge is not a wimp, yet is easily mastered, has good trajectory and fair amount of thump on both ends. Odds are you'll never want to part with it, it will take care of everything in North America and yet serves yeoman's duty in Africa regularly.

Also a rifle in 375 H&H has the longer action so if you decide to customize it and turn it into something else, then it has the length for cartridges like the 458 Lott. It is truly a classic, loved by nearly all that have owned one. I now have a 375, a 416, and a 458 but it all started with the 375 H&H (M-70). To this day, the 375 H&H holds a warm place in my heart.

Good luck,
EKM

Would a 416 taylor be big enough for you?
WVFRED

If you love hunting and need a bigbore to do so than the 375H&H is what you want.

If you are in love with the idea of owning a bigbore you can take out like a girlfriend to do things with and show off than a 458 calibre is the way to go.

The 458 win you have thought about is a fine cartridge.
Maxes out at 2200fps or so w/500 gn bullets. Not far off the 458lott which is about 150 -200 fps faster.

The 458 win can still get a respectable 2500 fps out of the light bullets on offer so yes you can shoot your longer range critters for fun.

And it is certainly a bigbore. Make no mistake. The cartridge looks big, it sounds big, it kicks big, and makes big holes in big animals.

Karl.

Pharoah -- I have to agree with the majority of the guys here. I've owned a .375 and currently have a .416 Rem and a .458 Lott. If you've never shot a big-bore before, you would be better served with a lighter caliber than a Lott -- at least initially. There's a difference of epic proportions between the recoil of what "normal" people consider to be a high-powered round like an '06 and a .458 Lott. That said, once you get used to shooting something substantial, by all means move on up to the heavy hitters. You don't want to start your big-bore career with a permanent flinch....

I second the .458 lott idea !! I feel it will be the standard .458 from now on.

If you're jumping up from a small bore, ie 30 cal or less, I agree that the 458 win mag or lott is a big jump in recoil. I alternated between a light .308 and a my 458 lott one day, and the .308 litterly fealt recoil-less in comparison to the lott. On the othre hand, if you want to jump right to the big bore, there is a simple answer, it's called a 350 gr bullet. A 350 @ 2400 has recoil on par with a 375 H&H, and is quite managable to shoot. 500 gr are a completely different story, and many people cannot handle that level of recoil.

You mention using birch for the stock, that is a failure waiting to happen. A 458 requires the best walnut with proper grain flow through the wrist, and you really ought to put a second recoil lug on the barrel, especially if you go with the Lott chamber. I don't care how dense the birch is, it will be no where close to a good dense walnut. Big bores destroy stocks that would last a lifetime on a smaller gun.

I own a .450 Rigby that will flatten anything that has ever walked the earth, at least since the Chichaliub impact. I also own a .404 Jeffrey that is loaded to equal the .416 Rem/Rigby. They are definite in their effect on game. However, for hunting the real world and for fun shooting something that gets your attention but needn't be eased up to and literally "ridden" in recoil, there is nothing, just nothing to equal the .375. Start with that. Get others. But at the end of the day, as your guns come and go, the .375 will steal your heart and move into a permanent place in your gunsafe.

The 458 Win Mag or the 458 Lott is the best choice for your first big bore bolt rifle.
Full power loads will be a BIG jump in recoil....
But the beauty of the 458 are the many bullets that are avialable, such as the Remington 405 grain that can be bought in bulk. Shot at about 1800 fps it makes a fun load and is good on deer, pigs etc. For moose and elk i would use a 400 ro 450 grain premium bullet at a velocity that does not kick you too bad.
For use in Africa on buff and elephant 500 grainers at 2150 fps will work fine.
Bullets and brass are inexpensive compared to many other big bores. The more you shoot it the better you will be with it.

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Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
The 458 Win Mag or the 458 Lott is the best choice for your first big bore bolt rifle.
Full power loads will be a BIG jump in recoil....
But the beauty of the 458 are the many bullets that are avialable, such as the Remington 405 grain that can be bought in bulk. Shot at about 1800 fps it makes a fun load and is good on deer, pigs etc. For moose and elk i would use a 400 ro 450 grain premium bullet at a velocity that does not kick you too bad.
For use in Africa on buff and elephant 500 grainers at 2150 fps will work fine.
Bullets and brass are inexpensive compared to many other big bores. The more you shoot it the better you will be with it.

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I agree with NE 450 No2, the 458 Lott is hard to beat for a first DGR. These are the same reasons why I had a 458 Lott built, it is very flexable to reload, from mild 45-70 level to max loads. Brass, dies, and bullets are all easy to get, and the more you shoot any rifle the better you should become.

Hog Killer

Jason
first and formost, from a safety persepctive, birch is the WRONG choice. Go with walnut, especially an bastogne or even a very slow grown american black walnut (not CLARO).. english is the "correct" wood for a fine rifle but amazing bastogne can be had for less

I have often stated that a win model 70 or a cz550 are excellent starting points for a bb/dgr in terms of value. I think the 375 is a fine caliber, but if you want a bigger bore, the 458 has a far far far better bullet sellection.

if there were more/cheaper .416 bullets, I would point you there.

The reason people talk about bullets and costs is NOT because they are irrationally cheap (okay, mebbe *I* am) but to be an emphatic about training and training and training on shooting big bores.

If it were me, I would look for a used mod 70 or a brand spanking new cz550 in 458 winmag, (or lott.. or rechamber to lott later) assemble some brass,a boat load of rem 405's and start training

jeffe

375 H&H.

It is the best for the first big bore and quite often it also becomes the same persons ultimate big bore as a high end custom rifle.

Mike

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Originally posted by Oldsarge:
...However, for hunting the real world and for fun shooting something that gets your attention but needn't be eased up to and literally "ridden" in recoil, there is nothing, just _nothing_ to equal the .375. Start with that. Get others. But at the end of the day, as your guns come and go, the .375 will steal your heart and move into a permanent place in your gunsafe......Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle!

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Hear, hear...most eloquently put! What he said!

The big decision you face is whether to use a std or long magnum action. If you choose the long action, you can use a longer throat and have the ability to seat the heavier .458 bullets out for more case capacity IF and WHEN you need it. You can also rebarrel to 458 Lott in the future if you want to.

If you use a std action you can still get all the power you will need by using AA2230 with your 500 grainers. I load a LOT of 458 and 2230 is by far the best for full power loads. Speer has discovered that 78 grs of 2230 will launch their 500 gr African Grand Slam Tungsten at 2239 fps held to COL 2.340 (Speer Manual #13). This is 5572 FPE and one tough bullet.

Speer also makes a fine 350 grainer with a very tough jacket for the 458 and 2230 will push it to 2600 fps if you want to reach out a bit. This bullet is also very useful for non-DG hunting at the reduced velocity provided by AA's XMP 5744. Charge weights from 46 to 52 grs will yeild 2100 to 2250 fps with dramatically reduced recoil, good range for woods hunting and fine accuracy. Recoil is a dead ringer for the 300 Win Mag.

Finally, I recommend using two stocks for your new creation...one giving a weight of 8.5 pounds and one at 12.5 pounds. The heavy one gives you a 32% reduction in recoil and will put you in the 375 H%H recoil range with most DG loads. Swapping them takes about 2 minutes.

Keep your optics strong and light and avoid punishing them with the DG loads in the 8.5 pound version.

Although I much prefer the 416 Rem or 404 to any 458 cal. and if I need more wop then I use 450 gr. Woodleighs...

However, I would choose the 458 Lott for a 45 cal gun over the weak and problematic 458 Win...I think the Lott has carved a nitch for itself in the gun trade.

IN 1912 two Memorable things accured & changed the World forever the Titanic sank (& we,ve been watching the Remakes vever since).More importantly THE HARROWED HALLS OF H&H gave us the .375mag (God bless em!!!!).Elmer Keith (God bless him) once said anybody "Who knew of the .375H&H & owned a30-06 wore FRILLY pants!!!!!!! The secret of using a big bore 375+ is to use a small sand bag between the Butt &your shoulder (known as a sissey bag).This really tames recoil

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Originally posted by deciple-of-keith:
Elmer Keith (God bless him) once said anybody "Who knew of the .375H&H & owned a30-06 wore FRILLY pants!

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I think he also once referred to the then new 7mmRem Mag as "an excellent pest rifle"!

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Originally posted by fla3006:
I think he also once referred to the then new 7mmRem Mag as "an excellent pest rifle"!

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I thought he said that about the .270 Win. that O'Connor was praising to the heavens.

Georgg

He referred to the 300 magnums as barely acceptable deer rifles, but then he also claimed to have ridden bucking horses until his nose and ears started bleeding and that was also bullshit, it does not happen, and if it did you would be in intensive care...

I don't know how far you are from a sizable gun club but if you can arrange to shoot any of the rifles discussed above it would greatly help your decision. There are substantial differences in comfort. Short of that I agree with the 375 H&H crowd for a first big bore if all action sizes are to be considered.

If by standard action you mean un-opened to take the 375 length family, then there are the 375/338 and 416/338 wildcats or the newer but wonderful 376 Styer for which there is factory brass.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atkinson:
He referred to the 300 magnums as barely acceptable deer rifles, ....QUOTE]


You mean it IS an acceptable deer rifle?

Must not have been an armour plated charging spike!!

jeffe

.375 or .458 lott for ease of components etc. The .416 Rigby is also a favourite of mine and it has the charisma part to add.....possibly a little harder to get bullets/brass for ??

Although in Oz it would be easier to get rigby brass than lott brass.

Aint it the truth PC I have even exp trouble getting .458 brass in the past when I still owned one.As you say I think most dealers would look at you blankly if you were looking for lott brass

I ordered mine from Grafs in the states before they started asking for an export licence for brass.

I've been up the range today & .458 vs 375 has becombe a hot topic the good news being my dealer has access to a Cz in .375 I might have to see him next week .Just got to work out how to right it of through the Business