I just finished reading an another article about the Belt Mountain Punch Bullets. In a 444 Marlin, the 300 grain Punch Bullet penetrated 62 inches of wet newsprint with 3/4 hardwood every 12 inches. Here is the link:

http://www.firearmssite.com/punch_bullets.htm

We now have Barnes Busters, Punch Bullets, North Fork bullets, Woodleigh Hydros,and others like Michael's superb Cutting Edge Bullets. Have we entered an era where, within limits, bullets are so good that caliber is becoming less and less relevant? After all, ff you can shoot through a buffalo with a 444 Marlin, what's the point of a .470, .500 NE or a .505 Gibbs?

Dave, good point, but a pass-through of a .444 bullet is obviously different that the pass-through of a .505, or .620. The ability to transfer energy, causing additional damage, either through fragmentation or "mushrooming" should also be considered. If a 25-caliber bullet could be loaded to penetrate a Cape Buffalo from stem to stern, but leave a precise .25" channel through the animal, it may be wanting for killing power despite its penetration. Pass-through may not be the best measurement of effectiveness.

You're right, though, modern advances in bullets has increased the effectiveness of today's rounds, perhaps making caliber choice less critical.

PS: Unless the round is fired from a Blaser S2 !!! :-)

Personally I believe in both bullet diameter and penetration. With both being equally important. -Rob

quote:

bullets are so good that caliber is becoming less and less relevant

i have been thinking on this for a few weeks... The way I put it though is I wonder how much a premium bullet "ups" the effectiveness of a specific caliber in comparison to bullets from 60 or 70 years go?

For example, does a 30 06 with a TSX outperform (trajectory not counting) a 300 win mag with a basic cup and core, non-bonded bullet of the same weight? And so on and so on...

I was reading Taylors African rifles book and thought that he would probably be tickled pink (pun intended) with the premium bullets of today and the very reliable performance they exhibit.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

i have been thinking on this for a few weeks... The way I put it though is I wonder how much a premium bullet "ups" the effectiveness of a specific caliber in comparison to bullets from 60 or 70 years go?

For example, does a 30 06 with a TSX outperform (trajectory not counting) a 300 win mag with a basic cup and core, non-bonded bullet of the same weight? And so on and so on...

I was reading Taylors African rifles book and thought that he would probably be tickled pink (pun intended) with the premium bullets of today and the very reliable performance they exhibit.

You have been reading my mind, Baxter!
I so totally agree.

Boddington maintained in Safari Rifles II that the modern premium soft-points are so good that they can in fact step up the caliber to the next level.
Put it the other way around: you can achieve the same performance as before, but you can use less gun. Especially from a recoil perspective this is clearly good.

On the NitroExpress.com forum we debated this briefly viz. the 8mm caliber. It used to be "pop" in its 220gr configuration. This is all but discontinued nowadays. However, people regurlary get spectacular results using the 200grs bullet, instead. This lead us to conclude that with the so well-performing premium bullets the bullet weight (sectional density) has become less of a factor when determining the performance of an expanding bullet.
A testament to this is also the increased popularity of the 165grs .300 even in Africa use. After all, the initial reputation on the .300 H&H and .30-06 was earned through the use of the 220 and 200 grainers; subsequently, the 180grs became the norm for the .30-06 and I doubt if many use 200grs even in the magnums anymore.

This should, of course, be kept in perspective!
No unreasonably small calibers should be used especailly when after the big and dangerous game.

- Lars/Finland

The best "premium Bullets" really are not a mix of brass and lead like the Punch Bullets but solid copper alloy. Copper will provide the best of all worlds with max penetration and the ability to deform particularly if driven fast enough. The issue I found in making them is the cost. Materials and machine time resulted in bullets that were around $5 each. My .620 Copper bore riders gave the best performance of any bullet I ever made but the number of folks who would buy them could be counted on one hand. Yup they are great bullets and well worth the price but you'd be surprised how many people wont pay that price, despite the fact that their guns cost thousands and their safari tens of thousands.-Rob

Rob, I agree with you that the homogenous bullets are great. However, in many cartridges, the longer length of the solid copper bullets becomes a problem. In a .470, .505 or 500 Jeffery, the homogenous solids work great. However, in a cartridge like a .45-70, 450 Marlin or one of Micheals cartridges they take up too much case capacity. You have to drop down in bullet weight or use a bullet with a lead core. For example, in the .45-70 the 400 grain Woodleigh Hydro is 1.239 inches long! Takes up a lot of case capacity. Given proper construction, sometimes a lead core is a good thing.

Dave, I am not arguing pour point but the premise .

If I understand the OP point was that lighter, Non-cinventional bullets were as or more effective than the traditional weights, hence even though longer you can drop down in weight and maintain or improve preformance.

SSR

Dave- The answer is a longer throat specifically so you can load the bullets out further. My ol .45-70 (nearly a .458 win mag) was throated to take advantage of the the full length of the Siamese Mauser Mag.I've been told that even on Marlins, that the throat can be moved foreward and thus you can take full advantage of the action length. You thus gain back whatever powder capacity you lost with the longer bullet. My .45-70 Mauser damn near matched .458 win Mag velocity( not quite) with a 500 gr copper bullet.
It's also interesting that most don't realize that a Bore Rider designed bullet usually provides 100-150fps over a conventional banded bullet at the same pressure. Bore Riders usually provide outstanding accuracy and by design minimize bullet resistance. I've been sold on monometal Bore riders for years as nearly the ultimate design.I've seen em work in everything from .20's to .700's -Rob

Dave,
I have no doubt a 444 or 45-70 will kill a buffalo but much like a 9.3x62, 338 or 375 on buffalo and that is with lung/heart shots they generally go probably 200 yards or so before they go down, and they tend to fail on frontal shots..Just putting a hole throug a buffalo is only half the story. It works on whitetail, but not on buffalo IMO.

To each his own but the .416, 404, put them down much quicker, and the big 50 do an even better job..They all kill buffalo well, and I have no problem using the lighter calibers if your careful an avoid frontal shots. I also believe the speed of a solid bullet is a factor in disableing a buffalo..I could see this with the 416 Wby, its a real hammer even with a solid whereas the 416 Rem puts them down pretty quick the 416 Wby seemed to hammer them down like a .470 or so it seemed to me..

Anyway thats the problem as I see it, wouldn't swear to any of it but these may be factors for consideration and they certainly are the reason I won't shoot buffalo with a .444 Marlin..Others surely will, and in todays Africa we always have a PH to save our bacon if we fail.

A hunter should pick a DG rifle with recoil in mind..One should shoot the biggest caliber they can shoot with a thought of a flinch and that eliminates a lot more folks than most realize, thus the popularity of the 9.3x62 and 375 H&H and justifiably so.

Great posts here men! Thanks again.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:

It's also interesting that most don't realize that a Bore Rider designed bullet usually provides 100-150fps over a conventional banded bullet at the same pressure. Bore Riders usually provide outstanding accuracy and by design minimize bullet resistance. I've been sold on monometal Bore riders for years as nearly the ultimate design.I've seen em work in everything from .20's to .700's -Rob

What are bore riders?

- Lars/Finland

quote:

It's also interesting that most don't realize that a Bore Rider designed bullet usually provides 100-150fps over a conventional banded bullet at the same pressure. Bore Riders usually provide outstanding accuracy and by design minimize bullet resistance. I've been sold on monometal Bore riders for years as nearly the ultimate design.I've seen em work in everything from .20's to .700's -Rob

Rob, I couldn't agree with you more, as I use the GS Custom bore riders for all my hunting.

I am best friends with the GS Custom agent here in NZ. It excites me to see that he can provide a 320gr HV in .423 which means that i'll really be able to use my .404 Jeffery for hunting down here. I'm just in the process of sorting the final details out as far as action, barrel and stock.

quote:

What are bore riders?

Lars, essentially a bore rider is a bullet with the shank at minor barrel diameter (lands), but with a series of driving bands at the major barrel diameter(grooves). The bore rider projectile that I have had the most experience with is the GS Custom www.gscustom.co.za

In the GS Custom projectile, there are 5 of these bands, spaced along the shank of the bullet, with a gap between each one. When they pass down the barrel, it is the band which comes into contact the most with rifling, with only a small depth of the shank being cut by the rifling. The result is less force required to push them down the barrel. Infact, with the GS Custom you can literally knock a bullet down the barrel with a rod with a fair amount of ease, compared to a bullet of non bore rider technology. As Rob correctly states in his post, you can get 100 - 150fps more velocity over a conventional banded projectile (eg Barnes).

The other benefit is that they seal the bore much better and help the life of your barrel.

My Bore-Riders are actually complicated monometal bullets. For the highest possible quality bullets,I custom make them for each rifle. To do that, I measure the exact bore diameter at the surface of the lands and specifically make bullets about 0.0001 smaller than the land diameter using a CNC lathe. My bullets have only a small .2-.3 driving band that in turn is machined to 0.0001 over the groove depth. Thus, almost the entire length of the bullet just rides on the lands and only the rear section engages the rifling. This results in very low bullet resistance and much higher velocities ( 100 to 150fps) for any given pressure versus a std bullet. These bullets also cause much less metal fouling in the bore! As I said, most folks don't even know they exist and what they can do. Michael 458 got some ridiculous levels of penetration with some copper Bore riders I gave CMC-Doc. Had he run the .600OK at 2300fps it would have completely exited his test stand. I've shot them through 6 ft diameter trees with no problems. They also open to around 1".-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
My Bore-Riders are actually complicated monometal bullets. For the highest possible quality bullets,I custom make them for each rifle. To do that, I measure the exact bore diameter at the surface of the lands and specifically make bullets about 0.0001 smaller than the land diameter using a CNC lathe. My bullets have only a small .2-.3 driving band that in turn is machined to 0.0001 over the groove depth. Thus, almost the entire length of the bullet just rides on the lands and only the rear section engages the rifling. This results in very low bullet resistance and much higher velocities ( 100 to 150fps) for any given pressure versus a std bullet. These bullets also cause much less metal fouling in the bore! As I said, most folks don't even know they exist and what they can do. Michael 458 got some ridiculous levels of penetration with some copper Bore riders I gave CMC-Doc. Had he run the .600OK at 2300fps it would have completely exited his test stand. I've shot them through 6 ft diameter trees with no problems. They also open to around 1".-Rob

Robgunbuilder,

Where is that much penetration needed by the hunter? I'm not trying to jerk your chain just trying to see where it is needed or useful.

465H&H

With bore diameter constantly changing from bullet friction,gas blasting,cleaning chemicals and scrubbing,extremes in bore temperature,etc... one would have to machine new bullets everytime out to the range and then there still is no guarantee that there will be enough sharpness in the lands to be able to bite into a hard monometal bullet and stablize it.Monometals are very hard on bores-it's "now you see and now you don't".Furthermore,IMO,the only reason the brass and copper monometal ever came into existance is because someone wanted to make money selling bullets with the least money invested or because they couldn't afford real bullet making machinary.IMO,jacketed lead softs and solids are still the ultimate hunting bullet.IMO,if you start off with a chunky jacketed soft,the lands will scrape off or leave on the right amount of copper to give the best bullet to bore fit.

Shootaway- Do you lie awake at night dreaming that BS up or is it due to accumulative Genetic Damage? Please don't pro-create!

465 H&H- A Hunter can't have too much penetration. Gaping holes out both sides of an animal works wonders. You do have to be careful of whats behind the critter, but we all watch for that don't we.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Shootaway- Do you lie awake at night dreaming that BS up or is it due to accumulative Genetic Damage? Please don't pro-create!-Rob

I needed something to cheer me up and make me laugh and thought that if I posted that, it would very likely draw such a remark from you.

Shootaway- My pleasure!

but I believe what I posted

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
but I believe what I posted

Then I stand by my post:

From an old thread-

--you live in an alternate universe--

I will give your opinion the appropriate weight



SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Shootaway- Do you lie awake at night dreaming that BS up or is it due to accumulative Genetic Damage? Please don't pro-create!

465 H&H- A Hunter can't have too much penetration. Gaping holes out both sides of an animal works wonders. You do have to be careful of whats behind the critter, but we all watch for that don't we.-Rob

Robgunbuilder,

You have been tracking a herd of bull elephant for 10 hours through the 100 degree heat and finally come up on the herd in the thick jesse. The herd is moving across your front with the biggest bull on you side of the herd. Your only chance for a shot is as they cross a small opening, barely longer than his length. One of the others becomes alarmed and runs off tking th erest of the herd with him. The big bull hesitates for a second wondering what is going on. As the bull steps out into the opening the PH says "My god he has over 120 lbs of ivory per side!" Your carrying a double rifle with a super penetrator in the right barrel and solid that you know will stop in the elephant in the left. As you raise your rifle for the shot you notice that are several other elephants directly behind the big bull. Which barrel will you shoot if either and why. Which is the better bullet for this job.

465H&H

Hydrostatically stabilised woodleighs

http://www.woodleighbullets.co...tatically-stabilised

Result speaks for itself

I am very very convinced

Use it in all my 9.3's and cancelled my order for a 470 double

If you place it right you only need one shot

Snout to bum ....

If you are using a double and quality solids,there is no solid that will make a day and night difference over the other.What will outperform a Hornady DGS to that extent? So what if the big tusked ele gets away it's not the end of the world.

465 H&h - Easy Choice. Assuming I have the money( trophy fee) for a 120lb Ele (per side) , I chose the super penetrator. I'd pay for any other Ele's that got wacked as acceptable collateral damage!. I have that kind of bucks remember! I give the scout and PH a little Backshesh and all is good! Do you put Jiffy Lube oil in your 600 AMG Benz? Of course you don't!
BTW I actually did use a super penetrator on an ELE hunt and it worked out just fine! Just 65 lbs per side though!
How exactly would I know that the other solid would work by the way? In reality, I'd also probably wait a bit till I had a clear shot. I'm that kind of guy!
Shootaway- did your mother have any children that lived?
-Rob

A few years ago I was pondering the question of "super bullets" and do they "up" the capabilities of cartridges.

I loaded a 140gr TSX bullet at 7-08 velocity and a 200gr traditional cup and core bullet in a 30-06. The 30-06 with 180-200 gr bullets has long been a "standard" for North America, and nobody would think that you were under gunned with that combo.

When I shot the bullets into newspaper,it became clear that the light TSX bullet was leaving every bit as big and as long (or longer) a hole as the 30-06.

So I'd say, yes, super bullets do make a difference. Sonce this is the Big Bore forum, I'll make a .375 reference

The 250gr TTSX bullet will likely make just as big and long (or longer) a hole as a 300gr cup and core bullet or 300gr Partition. I haven't tested that yet, but I bet the assumption is correct.

Dave,

Hey Buddy! First, let me say, that you have started some excellent threads in the last month, and I am sorry I have not had time to chime in a bit more than I have. It's just been a mad house since I returned.

I received the test bullets you sent for me to give a workout, the .458 and .500 Punch Bullets. They look great to me. Nice bullet, lot's of work seems to go into them, and they have a good idea about keeping them short for the limited capacity cartridges by adding the lead core. I find zero issues with them, except the sharp radius edges of the meplat. I like the rounded off edges, which does produce slightly deeper penetration, but I am sure these are going to test well. I plan on getting these tested this coming week for us. At least that is my plan!

I concur with your assessment completely, this is the Age Of the Super Bullets! And for sure these bullets DO and Can, enhance ANY cartridge and caliber. And yes, one can stretch the limits of some cartridges that come up short on capacity to limits they could not achieve in the past. This is no doubt.

But, the real questions that should be asked are not "If they Can" it's "Should We"?

Now this is just my opinion, and opinions vary and everyone has one, like A%%H***s eh?

Can a 45/70 let's say, with one of these super bullets take on elephant? Buffalo? Hippo? Yes they can, why? Penetration! They have the penetration to do so, and can do so readily. Lord knows all of these have been taken with FAR less in the past. Do the Super Bullets make a 45/70 the perfect answer for these animals? NO, they do not. For me, I like a combination of factors---Penetration first and foremost-Penetration is EVERYTHING, but along with penetration caliber and velocity to a point makes all the difference in the world. Now one does not need super velocity, but 2000 fps is good, 2100 fps is very good, and 2150 to 2250 fps is damned good! Caliber just as important, 416 is better than 375, 458 is better than 416, and .500 and .510 is better than 458! And so forth to a point. Take a Super Bullet, give it caliber, then add reasonable velocity, it turns into a hammer! 45/70 cannot always achieve that velocity to get there. So while it CAN with super bullets, it's not optimum.

For my part I have shot buffalo in the old days before super bullets. With a cast it was not adequate in my opinion. Bullet integrity is not there in cast, but that's all I had back in the day. I was asked to shoot elephant with the same thing, I refused, I did not and glad I did not do so at the time. Today, with the super bullets, I would not mind at all hammering buffalo with those, very excellent penetration. It would not be the hammer that a 458 B&M, or 458 Win, or 458 Lott is because of the heavier bullets and higher velocity, but it would get to the vitals and it would kill hell of them if you have a proper shot. The bullet can do it's job these days, better than ever before.

But even then, a super bullet does not make a 45/70 into a 458 Winchester or 458 B&M or 458 Lott! Velocity plays a role to a point.

I am going to the field this coming year with the 50 B&M Alaskan--.500 caliber lever gun, same size as your 45/70s and 450s, just .500 caliber. Excellent Super Bullets for it as well. Big advantage over your .458 lever guns, CALIBER, some velocity, and some weight advantages. In these 18 inch levers I can run a 450-500 gr bullets faster than you can run 400s. Add caliber to that and we are moving in the right direction for the "Heavies", buffalo in particular. Elephant? I don't know, maybe as a stunt, certainly have been taken with less no doubt. But still...........

Michael

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Shootaway- Do you lie awake at night dreaming that BS up or is it due to accumulative Genetic Damage? Please don't pro-create!

465 H&H- A Hunter can't have too much penetration Gaping holes out both sides of an animal works wonders. You do have to be careful of whats behind the critter, but we all watch for that don't we.-Rob



Robgunbuilder,

You have been tracking a herd of bull elephant for 10 hours through the 100 degree heat and finally come up on the herd in the thick jesse. The herd is moving across your front with the biggest bull on you side of the herd. Your only chance for a shot is as they cross a small opening, barely longer than his length. One of the others becomes alarmed and runs off tking th erest of the herd with him. The big bull hesitates for a second wondering what is going on. As the bull steps out into the opening the PH says "My god he has over 120 lbs of ivory per side!" Your carrying a double rifle with a super penetrator in the right barrel and solid that you know will stop in the elephant in the left. As you raise your rifle for the shot you notice that are several other elephants directly behind the big bull. Which barrel will you shoot if either and why. Which is the better bullet for this job.

465H&H

Brings up an excellent discussion. I am a penetration freak. PENETRATION IS EVERYTHING! While 465HH brings up an excellent point, it is secondary to sacrificing PERFORMANCE and PENETRATION. And it also brings up a "Ethics" question for me. Of course, when it comes to shooting, we all have some different ideas on "Ethics". I am not a trophy hunter, but if that 240 lbs of Ivory showed up in front of me, well I would do two things, first I would probably wait, and continue to hunt until I got a proper shot, or at least as much as possible anyway. If I felt compelled to have to take it, hell I will take a 2 for one and start shooting! Sort the problems out afterwards!

I will NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE "SACRIFICE" Performance, and Penetration for any reason at all! There are NO REASONS to sacrifice Performance. And EVERY reason to maintain penetration and performance in the field.

The same can be argued in the other direction just as easy, what if you do sacrifice that performance and penetration for that big bull? What if that round nose garbage goes haywire, turns on a dime and does not do the job, either in the herd or with a proper clear shot? You have sacrificed your performance and penetration to the point of the potential loss of that 240 lbs of ivory!

Not me, give me Penetration and Performance or Stay at home!

Michael

quote:

I'd pay for any other Ele's that got wacked as acceptable collateral damage!

Now there is a sportsmanlike attitude. (Just kidding). I presume you don't mean the elephant gets away wounded. Which by the way is hardly unknown.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Dave, good point, but a pass-through of a .444 bullet is obviously different that the pass-through of a .505, or .620. The ability to transfer energy, causing additional damage, either through fragmentation or "mushrooming" should also be considered. If a 25-caliber bullet could be loaded to penetrate a Cape Buffalo from stem to stern, but leave a precise .25" channel through the animal, it may be wanting for killing power despite its penetration. Pass-through may not be the best measurement of effectiveness.

Beibs, you are right. The flavor of the day seems to be "penetration at all costs." Mob behavior!

It is absurd to try to convince me that a 180 gr. solid from a 30-06 is the same as a soft from a 470 NE.

A pass-through is not the name of the game. Sending bullets flying through dangerous game can get you killed. The point is to do as much damage as possible and transfer as much of the bullet's energy to the animal as possible.

The only reason to use solids on elephants is to get penetration but there is no need for ultra penetration on anything else. And what is the point of a super penetrating bullet that exits on a missed brain shot. The elephant just runs off. It takes horsepower not just penetration.

To me, shooting buffalo with a solid is irresponsible as there are too many examples of wounding unintended victims.

The effectiveness of softs versus solids on game was discovered in the late 1800's. The dumb ______ that used solids and were lucky enough to survive wrote books about how they should have used softs!

Solids are not new. Flattening the point of the solid is not new either. Getting better straight line penetration in "rifles" is now "new" but one should be careful in pretending they are something they are not.

You can shoot through a buffalo with solids but that isn't going to kill it like a soft.

And a pass-through on a lion? Doesn't sound like my cup of tea.

Will- Trust me the 120lber won't get away .Period!I just threw the collateral Damage Ele in for a little creative levity! No offense, but 98% of the time if you just wait till your sure you wont hit an animal standing behind the first one, you wont have any problems. Ele are not exactly small! Good hunters keep both eyes open too, don't they and have patience too, Don't they?
A .620 hole hitting the vital organs ( or at least some) and passing completely through an animal will kill anything on this or any other planet. Frankly so will a .22 hole eventually. This does assume you can shoot though! Which is a big assumption given some of the armchair hunters posting here. I like big gaping holes through both sides and to be honest would really rather use a solid than a soft 99% of the time. After all, a .620 hole is really what a .458 wants to grow up to be.
Will you also miss the point that with solid copper bullets you can get super penetration and expansion. With solid copper .620 solids its more like 0.8-1". Is that enough for you?

Shootaway - Seriously, start wearing your shooting helmet again. The accumulated recoil damage is causing rapid and irreversible RETARDATION. -Rob

I don't think you really believe that "penetration is everything!" The reason I say that is that if you did you wouldn't have invented and supported the noncom line of bullets. With the noncoms you are sacrificing penetration to get more tissue destruction so penetration isn't everything. Having enough penetration is another matter, IMO that is critical.

The argument that premium RN steel jacketed solids are more likely to go off course is a red herring argument in my opinion. As I have said here before, I have shot well over 100 of them into elephants and buffalo and have never seen one go off course. Can one do it? Of course but so can a FN mono-metal solid. That event has been documented here. We really don't have enough field data on either type of bullet to say with any degree of accuracy which is more likely to go off course or how common such an event may be. From what I have seen, I believe it to be very rare occurrence in either case. Now, we do have some pretty good second hand info that says that A2 and Barnes hemispherical RN mono-metal bullets have a noticeable rate of going off course. We don't have anything like that for premium steel jacketed RN solids.

As to the ethics of shooting an elephant when you know that the bullet will go through and wound or kill another behind it, What can I say other than intentionally wounding a DG animal that may kill or injure a tracker, the PH or you is the height of irresponsible behavior. I really don't think that if push came to shove either of you would actually do that. If you would then I have completely misjudged you. Actually I doubt that your PH would allow you to take that shot if he knew what would happen no matter how big the ele was.

465H&H.

465HH

The NonCons are in my mind, considered an expanding bullet, a bullet that transfers trauma, more trauma than a solid yes, first shots, and so good in fact in the penetration department, that they might even be used with no backup solid shots on buffalo! So penetration has everything to do with the NonCons, as they penetrate far deeper than any conventional soft, therefore disrupting more tissue than a conventional, and causing more trauma. So they are about penetration. NonCons are not Limited Penetration Solids, but actually Non Conventional Expanding type bullets. Penetration first, one cannot fail with penetration.

Ahhh, we've discussed the off course round nose solids for years, same story, the potential is always there, and more so with RN than FN.

The ethics part of any pass throughs comes down to this, you should not take the shot with another animal behind the one you are going to shoot, regardless of the fact you might think you are using an "inferior" designed bullet, that MIGHT not fully penetrate! You can't count on that even using a round nose solid, as you cannot predict what it will do to begin with? So it is not ethical to take the shot with anything. I refused, waited, lost many a buffalo because I would not shoot even a Swift or Woodleigh soft with other buffalo behind the one I intended to shoot. Now I am not a trophy hunter per say, so I would just pick the next one if he was clear and hammer down. Elephant, I have always waited for him to be clear, regardless of bullet choice, and would do so today. There is no reason to take a bad shot on the first shot with the elephant unaware and posing no danger to anyone. Even if they leave the area, hunt them some more or pick another! To intentionally limit ones capabilities with an inferior bullet just does not make sense to me. To limit ones capabilities and performance on the off chance that you might have to shoot in a crowd? If lives are at stake that is one thing, but I can't see any other reason as being a viable excuse? One could make up all sorts of wild scenarios to fit ones justifications on subjects. My ethics tell me I should wait until I get a better shot, and that I should use the very best bullet that is available to me so that I might make a clean kill. To intentionally use an inferior bullet and taking wild shots in a crowd for the sake of a trophy, regardless thereof, is taking a far more chance of a lost or wounded DG animal that might kill or maim later, and is far more irresponsible than using a bullet that has a proper and known design. Give me the proper bullet, that will give me the most opportunity to be successful, to keep the chances of wounded or lost game to a minimum, if I do my part! To me, that is ethics!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
465HH

The NonCons are in my mind, considered an expanding bullet, a bullet that transfers trauma, more trauma than a solid yes, first shots, and so good in fact in the penetration department, that they might even be used with no backup solid shots on buffalo! So penetration has everything to do with the NonCons, as they penetrate far deeper than any conventional soft, therefore disrupting more tissue than a conventional, and causing more trauma. So they are about penetration. NonCons are not Limited Penetration Solids, but actually Non Conventional Expanding type bullets. Penetration first, one cannot fail with penetration.

Ahhh, we've discussed the off course round nose solids for years, same story, the potential is always there, and more so with RN than FN.

The ethics part of any pass throughs comes down to this, you should not take the shot with another animal behind the one you are going to shoot, regardless of the fact you might think you are using an "inferior" designed bullet, that MIGHT not fully penetrate! You can't count on that even using a round nose solid, as you cannot predict what it will do to begin with? So it is not ethical to take the shot with anything. I refused, waited, lost many a buffalo because I would not shoot even a Swift or Woodleigh soft with other buffalo behind the one I intended to shoot. Now I am not a trophy hunter per say, so I would just pick the next one if he was clear and hammer down. Elephant, I have always waited for him to be clear, regardless of bullet choice, and would do so today. There is no reason to take a bad shot on the first shot with the elephant unaware and posing no danger to anyone. Even if they leave the area, hunt them some more or pick another! To intentionally limit ones capabilities with an inferior bullet just does not make sense to me. To limit ones capabilities and performance on the off chance that you might have to shoot in a crowd? If lives are at stake that is one thing, but I can't see any other reason as being a viable excuse? One could make up all sorts of wild scenarios to fit ones justifications on subjects. My ethics tell me I should wait until I get a better shot, and that I should use the very best bullet that is available to me so that I might make a clean kill. To intentionally use an inferior bullet and taking wild shots in a crowd for the sake of a trophy, regardless thereof, is taking a far more chance of a lost or wounded DG animal that might kill or maim later, and is far more irresponsible than using a bullet that has a proper and known design. Give me the proper bullet, that will give me the most opportunity to be successful, to keep the chances of wounded or lost game to a minimum, if I do my part! To me, that is ethics!

Michael

Michael,

Unfortunately, we may think there are no animals behind our target animal but we don't always know that for sure. As you well know that exact thing happened to me last year and although you can't find more careful hunters than me and my PH George Hallamore it happened and I eneded up killing two elephants with one shot. From experience I know that the same shot from the 458 with a RN Woodleigh would have killed the firat elephant just as dead and not overpenetrated. In my opinion, if the amount of penetration that you get from a bullet keeps you from shooting when you have a sure killing shot, it is unneeded and wasted penetration.
To quote you above "To intentionally limit ones capabilities with an inferior (overpenetrating) bullet just does not make sense to me".


Quote "Ahhh, we've discussed the off course round nose solids for years, same story, the potential is always there, and more so with RN than FN." We have had this friendly discussion at least a couple of times before but this time I am going to put you on the spot. Can you prove the assertion that RN are more likely to go off course than FN bullets or is it just your opinion? I have looked into this a lot and I can find no such evidence. It may be true, I don't know but the data to prove it one way or another just doesn't exist.
465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Dave, good point, but a pass-through of a .444 bullet is obviously different that the pass-through of a .505, or .620. The ability to transfer energy, causing additional damage, either through fragmentation or "mushrooming" should also be considered. If a 25-caliber bullet could be loaded to penetrate a Cape Buffalo from stem to stern, but leave a precise .25" channel through the animal, it may be wanting for killing power despite its penetration. Pass-through may not be the best measurement of effectiveness.

Beibs, you are right. The flavor of the day seems to be "penetration at all costs." Mob behavior!

It is absurd to try to convince me that a 180 gr. solid from a 30-06 is the same as a soft from a 470 NE.

A pass-through is not the name of the game. Sending bullets flying through dangerous game can get you killed. The point is to do as much damage as possible and transfer as much of the bullet's energy to the animal as possible.

The only reason to use solids on elephants is to get penetration but there is no need for ultra penetration on anything else. And what is the point of a super penetrating bullet that exits on a missed brain shot. The elephant just runs off. It takes horsepower not just penetration.

To me, shooting buffalo with a solid is irresponsible as there are too many examples of wounding unintended victims.

The effectiveness of softs versus solids on game was discovered in the late 1800's. The dumb ______ that used solids and were lucky enough to survive wrote books about how they should have used softs!

Solids are not new. Flattening the point of the solid is not new either. Getting better straight line penetration in "rifles" is now "new" but one should be careful in pretending they are something they are not.

You can shoot through a buffalo with solids but that isn't going to kill it like a soft.

And a pass-through on a lion? Doesn't sound like my cup of tea.

Will, I would include some of the expanding bullets such as Swifts and North Fork Cup Points in my list of super bullets. Swift now makes a 350 grain bullet for the 45-70 and North Fork makes a 350 grain cup point for that caliber as well. The Woodleigh Hydros are an entirely new category that is supposed to bridge the gap between softs and solids and Woodleigh makes a 400 grain Hydro for the 45-70 too. The super bullets are not just limited to the solid super penetrators. I doubt that a lion would go more than a few steps after a well placed shot with one of these bullets.

Michael, I know you are swamped. Take your time with the Punch Bullets. I think you will be very impressed. I am very curious to see how they perform compared to the Barnes Busters.

As far as roundnose versus flatnose, I am inclined to think that the Michael has amply demonstrated that the flatnose bullets do better but the only time that I ever used a solid was a plain old Woodleigh roundnose in my .404 and it zipped right through a big bull bison on a shoulder shot and performed perfectly. In a double, I would prefer a faltnose but to insure reliable feeding, a roundnose works pretty well in a bolt gun. Just my two cents.

Good Morning 465!

quote:

We have had this friendly discussion at least a couple of times before but this time I am going to put you on the spot. Can you prove the assertion that RN are more likely to go off course than FN bullets or is it just your opinion?

Ahhh, yes, the age old discussion RNvsFN. The very reason that I got so heavy involved in testing solids is the very fact that I myself had an issue in 2006 when on a bullet testing mission in South Africa. All plains game this one, but I did test on giraffe, eland, several wildebeasts, zebra and such. I had a prototype RN solid at the time for my 50 B&M prototype, and I watched it drive off course as much as 90 degrees, several times. I was rather distraught, and I almost refused to believe something could be that awful, but there it was and it did. One time Andrew and I watched the round nose solid enter the rear of an eland, and exit the top of it's back and hit a large tree limb above the eland knocking the bark off! Broadside shots on wildebeast and kudu drove relatively straight, as this was not enough distance to cause it to drive off course. Later in that same trip I was offered one hell of a good deal on elephant, 4 of them in fact, I had to refuse it because I knew I did not have a decent tool to work with, and would never have trusted those bullets for even broadside shots on elephant.

There are many other instances I know of with this happening with various different sorts of round nose fmj or solids. You know of many of these yourself, they have been shown before right here. There are several of our own AR members that have had this very thing happen, all have come forward before. I see no need to drag that on again.

Now I realize that much of this is not written down and statistics provided as you like, but none the less, it does happen, it does exist, and it's not magic, it's real. Obviously you doubt my methods of test work, and that is ok, I do not protest you, however I do in fact know the test work is valid, and I can show that 100% of the time a round nose solid will fail, and that a flat nose solid of many varieties is successful in the test work, and at the very least this alone shows the potential is there for failure, or for success. As you know, I am not saying the RN will fail 100% of the time in the field, as it does not, but the potential is there for it to do so, and it has.

Enough, this is somewhat of a hijack of Dave's thread and not the jest of what he is trying to point out. So I say we leave it at that and move once again forward.

Michael

quote:

Michael, I know you are swamped. Take your time with the Punch Bullets. I think you will be very impressed. I am very curious to see how they perform compared to the Barnes Busters.

Dave
They are good looking bullets. At the very least I will try and get a good test put together for them this week. I can give them a go at 45/70 velocities compared with other bullets, like the Barnes buster. Then maybe I can get the velocity up a bit in say the 458 B&M to give those a go too. I will have to see what I can come up with, but I am sure I can.

Correct, Super Bullets are not limited to solids by any stretch. I happen to think that the 350 North Fork CPS--Cup Point, is an excellent choice for bigger critters. It expands somewhat at lower velocities, penetration is fantastic, and enough, trauma inflicted is excellent, and followed quickly by one of the solids might give you a great advantage on larger critters with limited capacity .458s, like 45/70 and my own 458 Super Shorts. Swift, maybe super conventional. CEB the BBW#13 NonCon for sure, had some made specifically for the marlins in 45/70. And a few more. Oh what I would have given for some of these bullets back at the turn of this Century for my 45/70s!

Michael

"Prototype RN in 2006"

You have come a long way in 5 years my friend!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
"Prototype RN in 2006"

You have come a long way in 5 years my friend!

HEH....Well you know me well, I don't play when it comes to getting something done! By 2007 was using the Lehigh/SSK, actually requested profile 510 and 515 gr Flat Nose solid very successful in 50 B&M on elephant and buffalo. So within that one year had made a huge change in the .500 caliber cartridges and rifles, with great success! No moss growing on my tail--had mission to accomplish! LOL

M