I have been doing a lot of experimenting with the Barnes TSX and banded solids lately and frankly, I am just amazed at how good they are! For example, in my 9.3X62, the 250 grain TSX bullets seem to penetrate at least as well if not better than the 300 grain Swifts in that caliber. In addition, they open up just like the picture on the manual and retain virtually 100% of their original weight. The penetration of these bullets is simply extraordinary!

Here is a question I would like to throw out there to those of you with more experience than I. I love shooting guns .40 caliber and up but I am wondering, have bullets, expecially the Barnes TSX, become so good that caliber is becoming less relevant? Does a CITIZEN hunter off to Africa need anything bigger than a 9.3 or .375? In other words, has Barnes completely changed the game? Has Randy Brooks succeeded in doing what Roy Weatherby tried to do?

Dave

Don't get me wrong ... I like the .375 H&H pushing a 300 gr TSX at 2600 fps. Accurate and lots of penetration. Great for plains game. BUT, it doesn't have the authority at impact provided by a 350 gr .416 caliber Barnes X (or TSX) with a muzzle velocity of 2700 fps (which is also accurate and has lots of penetration).

I personally prefer the larger bullet for things like Cape Buffalo.

quote:

Has Randy Barnes succeeded in doing what Roy Weatherby tried to do?

No.



The Barnes X and Tripple Shok still have a very narrow velocity band that they retain their X petals.

Pictured, 400, 450 and 500 grain .458.

If you have to load down to 9.3 velocity to get them to look like the catalog, I dont think Roy Weatherby would have been impressed!

To their credit, and yours, they make sense when shooting large for caliber big game. That is, larger critters than the caliber would normally be used for.

Lead, for environmental reasons, is already on the way out in europe, and we will probably not be too far behind. Recent Barnes and Nosler copper bullets are certainly much more sophisticated than the current Barnes X or Tripple Shok, and do prove it is possible to make a good copper bullet.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Has Randy Barnes succeeded in doing what Roy Weatherby tried to do?

Randy and Coni Brooks have owned Barnes Bullets since '74. They bought the company from Fred Barnes. Randy came up with the solid copper bullet concept.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Has Randy Barnes succeeded in doing what Roy Weatherby tried to do?

Randy and Coni Brooks have owned Barnes Bullets since '74. They bought the company from Fred Barnes. Randy came up with the solid copper bullet concept.

Sorry guy! I meant to say has Randy BROOKS suceeded in doing with a bullet what Roy Weatherby tried to do? I have made the correction in my original post. Thank you.

Dave

add .02 or .03 to the SD number, and it all makes sense.

Is it coincidence, pure luck or perhaps the infringement of a long existing South African patent which makes the Barnes TSX so successful?

Especially if you reduce the SD by much more than .02 or .03!!!

That idea is also South African if I'm not mistaken

If you look at it from the standpoint of how they are being used in the smaller calibers, the answer is Yes! Unquestionably!

Light for caliber bullets with extraordinary penetration are well favored and gaining believers every day. They just work better.

Non-dangerous game is still living tissue like the big beasts. When you have someone like Saeed willing to say he'd face a buff with a .270 AI and a Barnes TSX I think that pretty well meets the intent of where Roy Weatherby was headed.

I also don't think that that means you can go elephant hunting with a 280 or whatever that guy used either, even if he got away with it.

The performance window velocity wise on Barnes bullets is no worse than cup & core bullets. If anything, it might be better. It's pretty tough to drive one too fast and not still get some pretty decent penetration and tissue damage. The older X bullets had acknowledged problems and they have been addressed.

I think Roy Weatherby would be pleased as punch to be able to see where we are. You can reach out with a laser beam and still get penetration to throw in the toilet, and terminal performance to get the job done.

miles58,
I agree with your assessment. I correspond with a gent that returned a few weeks back from the NT of Australia. Used his 338Federal (not exactly a powerhouse) to take a number of VERY large wild cattle. 185gr TSX broke both shoulders broadside to be recovered under the skin. Relatively small calibre, very light pill achieved some remarkable penetration. Some of the complaints I've heard about Barnes bullets seems to be people using say 30/06 rifles with 200gr Barnes on elk-sized game getting pencil throughs, or fast cartridges like 338RUMs and heavy weight 250gr Barnes pills on relatively light game.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
add .02 or .03 to the SD number, and it all makes sense.

If what I think Jeff is saying is right, the long for weight mono bullets like the TSXs & several others now, seem to stretch the SD window a bit. I don't profess to understand the maths behind it save that I appreciate there is really only one way to calculate SD but these bullets seem to need a factor adding to theirs to give true comparison with a lead cored bullet. Eg a 350gr 416 TSX has a SD from memory of .28, & we all know that .300 SD is the magical cut off figure for DG, but I'd wager few (OK I know someone will ) would argue that this TSX behaves on game like the best 400gr lead cored soft point bullets. What Jeff has said seems to back this up I think.
Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Has Randy Barnes succeeded in doing what Roy Weatherby tried to do?

Randy and Coni Brooks have owned Barnes Bullets since '74. They bought the company from Fred Barnes. Randy came up with the solid copper bullet concept.

Sorry guy! I meant to say has Randy BROOKS suceeded in doing with a bullet what Roy Weatherby tried to do? I have made the correction in my original post. Thank you.

Dave

Add one of Randy's fancy bullets to one of Roy's firebreathing cases and pull the trigger, for the ultimate in performance it's a hard combination to beat.

It's so deeply engrained in me that bullets contain lead that it's taking some time to appreciate the bullets without the lead.....and the TSX is doing that slowly but surely.....

That said....as long as A-Frames and Northforks are available it really makes it difficult to climb over the fence.....it's hard to leave something that works so well.....

I have a few 250 grain TSX for the .375 H&H and just may cause some fur to fly this year with that bullet....that might put me over the fence.

As with Nosler's partition.....when so many folks are singing it's praises.....one has to start believing! In a very few years the TSX may be the only bullet in my hunting bench....but it's getting a fair chance now.

quote:

It's so deeply engrained in me that bullets contain lead that it's taking some time to appreciate the bullets without the lead.....and the TSX is doing that slowly but surely.....

I started out looking for performance. Got that in spades. Accuracy, penetration, tissue destruction. All right at the top of what a man has any right to expect. No lead in the bullet, no lead in my food, no lead loose in the environment, that's something that just comes along with the deal.

I like them more every day.

The TSX's have been good killers in all my rifles from .25 caliber up. One plus is that I have had a couple of rifles that were kind of sour shooters, with almost any bullet I tried. The TSX fixed them. For some reason my experience has been that if I've tried every bullet-powder combo I can think of, I load some TSX's and often it works. In the really good shooting rifles, however they don't seem to shoot any better than partitions or anything else.

Penetration isn't all there is to killing game. If it was then we'd all just load up with solids and go at it, but clearly there's a requirement for a reliable expanding bullet on most game. The reliable part is what I have a problem with on the barnes design. I've seen several suspected failures to open with the barnes X bullets and one proven failure to open, that was a 300 gr .375 X bullet dug out of an elephant shot by an acquaintance. It was bent in the shape of a banana, he's got it sitting on his mantle. I won't use the X or TSX for that reason, they're not ready for prime time with the failures I've seen. When they work right, 99% of the time, they work great. But when they fail they fail miserable and cost you dearly, the largest whitetail buck of his lifetime in my hunting buddy's case. I think the concept is basically sound but something is needed to initiate expansion other than a hollowpoint in the nose. I think the newer barnes and nosler offerings with the plastic tips may fix this and make them a reliable hunting bullet. The X and TSX designs, however, will not be shot at game by me. I don't trust them.

quote:

Penetration isn't all there is to killing game. If it was then we'd all just load up with solids and go at it, but clearly there's a requirement for a reliable expanding bullet on most game. The reliable part is what I have a problem with on the barnes design. I've seen several suspected failures to open with the barnes X bullets and one proven failure to open, that was a 300 gr .375 X bullet dug out of an elephant shot by an acquaintance. It was bent in the shape of a banana, he's got it sitting on his mantle. I won't use the X or TSX for that reason, they're not ready for prime time with the failures I've seen. When they work right, 99% of the time, they work great. But when they fail they fail miserable and cost you dearly, the largest whitetail buck of his lifetime in my hunting buddy's case. I think the concept is basically sound but something is needed to initiate expansion other than a hollowpoint in the nose. I think the newer barnes and nosler offerings with the plastic tips may fix this and make them a reliable hunting bullet. The X and TSX designs, however, will not be shot at game by me. I don't trust them.

boltman, hardly fair not to use a bullet that works 99% of the time, because they "failed" on a animal they where never intended for (elephant). I would take non expansion (and over penetration) as a "failure" way above over expansion/ disintigration and resultant lack of penetration, but that's just me. To each his own.
I think that the mono metal bullets and the solid shank bullets (and to a lesser extend Swift A-Frame) has changed the game, especially here in Africa.

Dave,
I think your on to something that eveyone that has hunted "extensively" learns and that is nothing has changed, it has never been about caliber, it has always been about a properly constructed bullet being placed in the right spot. If you stick in the right spot and it performs as designed it will work within reason.

YES!!!

I think the X-Bullet did change the bullet making landscape.....and definately for the better......AND....they are getting better all the time. I use many different bullet designs but the X-Bullet family and the Banded Solids are hard to beat for many reasons like price(compared to other premium grade bullets), performance, accuracy, and availability. They work for me!

It amazes me how well the propaganda machines of the anti-gunners operate. Now we have here (of all places) a thread in which numerous posters are talking about the contamination of the earth with lead. Talk about penetrating the target....!!

Just where the heck does lead come from?

Anyone ever heard of Galena? And yes, the earth is rich enough with it around some places that they have even been named "Galena". Earth to earth, dust to dust, Lead to ground, propaganda to a new tyranny. All part of the eternal plan, apparently.

Yeh, I've got the Nomex on today.

It used to be out in the West "a case of lead poisoning" meant someone got shot.



Chuck

Boltman,

I have shot the X bullet and the TSX bullet in Africa... An X bullet is not made for Africa unless you are shooting an elephant with a 460 like a member here did and also used it on rhino and maybe some petals broke off, but you still have a heck of a big shaft there to penetrate and do its job...
I drove X and TSX bullets thru buff to zebra and smaller planisgame and there was only down in short running spurts.. Yes I shot some neck shots but any animal with correct placement will hit the ground with a neck shot.
AS for a whitetail I cannot see on failing on a 200 or even 300 lb buck... One bullet with correct placement and that deer would have been down...
Bullet didn't open well lets look what my have happened to that cartridge... If like my ammo, we fire one amd maybe two shots and keep refilling the the magazine with the older ammo down in the bottom staying there and banging around in the magazine box and maybe flatening the tip...
I am always watching any and all of my ammmo and will not shoot any on game that have deformed tips lead or hollow point..

Mike

I don't like Barns bullets because they are made out of copper. I shot a couple and my barrel was full of copper. It took me all day to get it clean so no more barns bullets for me!!!
I have a wide choice of other bullets that kill just as good.

I'm with Alberta Cannuck, I still like lead bullets with copper jackets..I also like the coated GS Custom monolithics, but I'm not ready to walk away from super premiums made out of lead and copper, probably never will totally trust the monolithics, too many have failed for me, yet I know folks that I respect their opinnions that swear by them..Guess thats what makes a horse race, Chevys and Fords, bolt actions and lever actions. Hope that never changes.

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
Boltman,

I have shot the X bullet and the TSX bullet in Africa... An X bullet is not made for Africa unless you are shooting an elephant with a 460 like a member here did and also used it on rhino and maybe some petals broke off, but you still have a heck of a big shaft there to penetrate and do its job...

Mike,

I've never been to Africa and certainly haven't hunted elephant so I'm no expert. The 300 gr X bullets out of his 375 did get his elephant for him. His first shot was a heart shot, the PH had told him to shoot it in the heart and if it turned and ran to hip shoot it. That's exactly what happened, he put one through the heart and when it wheeled he shot it in the hip as it ran away. He said it collapsed instantly when he hit it in the hip. The bullet that didn't expand was dug out of the hip, the nose had pinched shut and it was bent in a curved shape like a banana. I'll certainly defer to your judgement that there's better bullets and loads to use on an elephant, but that's what he used and he did manage to kill it with two shots and no follow up shot from the PH. My problem is with the fact that the X bullet didn't open as it was designed. You hear stories about people claiming that the X design isn't reliable in expansion and I've seen three whitetails lost be experienced riflemen shooting X bullets who swear that they made sound shots, and I believe them. I believe the bullets penciled through without expansion but the problem is proving the theory, there's no recovered deer and obviously no recovered bullet to show the tale. I have dressed a couple of deer shot with X bullets that had minimal internal damage and I suspect the bullets didn't expand there either, but the deer was still recovered. Normally the X bullet wound channel is pretty impressive with lots of damage. In the case of the elephant the bullet was recovered and there's physical proof of the X bullet's failure to open.

When the X bullets work they work wonderfully, tremendous penetration and quick kills are the norm. However, I don't feel that the hollowpoint design is reliable in initiating expansion. Something has to get inside the hollowpoint to start the expansion and I feel that if the bullet hits at just the wrong angle then the small hole can be pinched shut before you can get the tissue inside the hole to give the hydraulic pressure to start peeling the petals back. My guess is that the plastic tip on the tipped TSX and the Nosler E-tip designs will fix that because the plastic tip is going to be driven back into the hollowpoint cavity thus giving reliable expansion. I give barnes due credit for thinking outside the box and bringing a radical new bullet design to market. They have constantly improved them as time has gone by and I feel that they or someone else will eventually improve them to the point that they need to be at. I don't think the hollowpoint design is reliable and I think that it'll eventually be replaced completely by the plastic tip variety. The concept is sound but I'm convinced that the current design isn't 100% reliable so I won't shoot them at game.

Guys, thank you for all your comments. Your insights have been great!

It's amazing how we can use the same product and have such different experiences. Andy thinks they open up too much. Boltman is convinced they may not open up at all. However, the elephant/X bullet might be a bad example. In that case, a solid or banded solid might have been a better selection.

When the X bullet first came out, I tried them and gave up. It seems like Barnes was changing the ogive on the bullet every time I bought a new box. I was a naysayer for a long time but now that I have tried the new TSX bullet, I am back on board. The 225 grain .35 caliber and 250 grain .366 TSX bullets have transformed my .35 Whelen and my 9.3X62.

I vividly remember the first time I went to the range to test some of the TSX bullets in my friends .416 Rigby. The first shot was into a box of phone books. We put wet books toward the front of the box and two or three dry books toward the back to catch the bullet. At the shot, a cloud of confetti blew out of the back of the box. The TSX went clear through with devastating effect. It was amazing!

I've now got some in .358, .366, and .416. I plan to pick up some for my .375 and .423 as well.

We are going to shoot a bison this fall. My son is going to use my .500 Jeffery but I plan to take my 9.3 along. After he puts it down, I'll back up a bit and shoot is with the 9.3. I will try and dig it out and see how well it did.

Dave

Dave, How fast are yo shooting your 250 grain 9.3 mm?

Bison respond to a bit of velocity.

I had good results using .35 whelan and .35 whelan improved.

We did not have very good .35 caliber bullets back then either.

Andy

Andy:

I chronographed the 250 TSX bullets at about 2525 fps in my rifle.

Dave

Evolution.
If one could shoot a bullet out of a .257 Roberts that would behave like todays premium bullets in .458 Lott, we would have come a long way. Full power in the recieving end, varmint recoil in a featherweight rifle from the sender.
While not there yet, the Barnes bullets have brought us a step closer.
A 150 grs X from a .308 win equals a 200 grs nosler partition from a .300 Win Mag.
A 250 grs X from a 9,3x62 outperforms 300 grs conventional from a .375 H&H.
It is really hard to see that the majority of hunters in Africa ever would need more gun than that.
Rhino, ele and hippo in dence cover are NOT performed by those.
It would give an easy to carry, low recoiling rifle for quick and precise shot placement.
But of course, it truly would take the fun out of the whole thing, for many people.
Africa, hunting and nostalgia are words braided together tightly. Hunting ele with a varmint cartridge would be blasfemy to too many people.

So did the X change the game? Could have, should have, almost in some areas.
But we are slow...

Dave,

That will be a good bison load.

Bullet will look about like the 450 grain X in my photo.

Andy

Got a box of Wodleigh 400 grain .423 ordered last week, on sale! I love it when they do this!