The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores An interesting (?) Whitworth 458...Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I've just started the 3-day inspection of a Whitworth 458 I picked up. Most of the Whitworths I have seen don't look like this one so I thought I'd share some pics and first impressions, and see what you folks think. A few things: - The side date (if accurate) shows July of 1974 - The bottom metal has a 72 (year?) stamped on it - I doubt a box of ammo has been fired through it. It still had what looked like cosmoline on the floor plate and rear of the action - It feels like a new Zastava - kind of rough - It feeds OK, but needs some love... - I love the stock - it fits like it was made for me - it has a 23" barrel - It has a flat barrel band with a 'ball' type swivel eye. Almost all other barrel bands I see are rounded. - It does NOT have the Whitworth oval on the front ring - It is marked Whitworth Rifle Company - Manchester England on top of barrel - see pic - The left wall of the action is marked Whitworth Express Rifle - see pic - It has Birmingham proof marks over the serial number and under the barrel - see - The Interarms info is on the right side of the ring - see pic - Is does NOT say Made In Yugoslavia (or anything else) on the tang - see pic - The cross bolt is a square piece of steel that mates with the recoil lug - see pic - There is a small crack (maybe from drying out?) in FRONT of the real action pillar - see pic - There is NO second recoil lug - The bolt face is clean - see pic - Naked it weighs 8lbs. 5 oz. - The rear sight has three flip up blades, not a single standing and two flip up Upshot is that I like the rifle a lot. As I say, the stock is spot-on at 13.75" and it's a great feeling rifle. I gather this is an earlier rifle, and that the more common Interarms, Whitworth markings came later? I am just speculating here... Anyway, here are the pics, I'd appreciate any extra info you had.            | ||
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nice stock, silvers pad on it? if it is a silvers, and it was put on in 72-75, it'll get hard as my head -- standard recommendation of axial wrist pin on big bores .. in fact, i wouldn't shoot it until i had done that - but your experience will guide your way best luck -- nice rifle, opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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The pad has Whitworth across the middle, not sure if they OEMd the pads from silvers or not. It’s not hard yet, it’s actually got some give left to it. Given that the thing has never been shot, I doubt I’ll risk shooting it before getting it topped up. I’d hate to have the stock split on the first shot... | |||
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Looks like a very fine .458 you have there Bax. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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Thanks Bill...I’m hoping it will be after being finished up. | |||
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Nice find Baxter. I like it. | |||
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Cool rifle. I would guess just early features as you did. I would add second recoil lug on the barrel and bed it in glass. You will love it forever. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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Anyone know how they might have done the marking? It’s it just a stamp that leaves a texture in the lettering? | |||
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What you have is a true Whitworth the forerunner to the Mk 10 Whitworth, and they bring a premium price btw..MOre or less the same comparison as a pre 64 mod. 70 and todays Winchester perhaps..NICE GUN!!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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That is a beautiful thing! Is the barrel 23” from the breach or front ring? Very lovely wood. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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Ray is right. Is the rear sight soldered on or screwed on? IIRC, the early ones were soldered. | |||
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BaxterB, Thanks for adding this to the .458 WIN thread, where I replied. Further comments here: That is some nice wood and needs to be shored up for hard use. Ditto jeffeosso on the axial grip bolt. I forgot to mention that earlier, but is especially important on your rifle since you have a hairline crack in front of rear pillar. Is there a color-cased-steel grip cap? That is an easy approach for a long grip bolt set in epoxy. And do not forget the second crossbolt between trigger and magazine wells. You need to add that, hidden is fine. Might be tough to match your visible front crossbolt. The markings: Real engraving by human hands for the stippling at the bottom of the big letters ? I do not think roll stamping can do all of that. Surely a combination of stampings and engravings here and there. Those earlier Whitworth Mark X Express rifles were classier. My .458 WIN came at least a decade after yours. I especially like the all-folding, 3-leaf rear sight, probably soldered on as Huvius says. My later rifle has the rear sight screwed-on only, no solder. Let us make this a repository thread where the Whitworth Express Experts (WEE !) may eventually come forward to educate us. Rip ... | |||
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WEE ! Late eighties .458 WIN:  Early seventies .458 WIN: | |||
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I presume you mean the threaded rod through the grip? Or like the CZs had? Sights are soldered in and barrel is 23” from front of the receiver. The ergos are fantastic, but it needs work. | |||
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I did not do the axial grip bolt on my Whitworth .458. It has good grain through the grip like yours and has been problem free with just the Mauser spacers instead of a real pillars ... but it also was not used until the second (hidden) crossbolt was added, and it came with a secondary recoil lug on the barrel, bedded at the factory. After I rechambered it to ".458 WinRuger"  I had a third crossbolt (hidden allthread) added to back up the barrel lug.       Possible improvements to the strength of my Whitworth's walnut stock: Real pillars instead of Mauser spacers. Allthread and epoxy inserted from grip cap to rear pillar. Or get a B&C Medalist stock and save the Walnut for Sunday carry.   Some wood had to be removed on the right side to allow installation of the Lyman receiver sight, with fixed standing rear sight removed. I have a single-leaf, fold-down rear sight that I installed by having one extra hole drilled and using one of the factory holes, with a filler screw in the unused factory screw hole on the barrel. It would be better to have a soldered rear sight like on the earlier Whitworth Express Rifles, where all leaves fold down, for receiver sight use.  Rip ... | |||
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No need for a barrel lug or anything else if you get a B&C Medalist stock, which they offer to fit the Mark X Mauser, same as an FN Mauser, or standard M98. B&C Medalist as used on the M70 Extreme Weather .338 WIN:    The B&C Mauser stock:   That one is still waiting for an NECG banded front sight, to be used with a receiver sight. Despite what some may think, my face is not too fat to use iron sights with that stock. Rip ... | |||
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Here is a great thing about the Whitworth Express Rifle in .458 Win.Mag.: The action has not been opened up toward the front only as they do with the .375 H&H Whitworth Express Rifle, which uses a sheet metal extension in the front of the box, and weakens the action by opening it all to the front. The magazine box on the .458 WIN is thick and strong steel like a standard M98 Mauser, front, back and sides. The .458 WIN action has not been weakened.  .458 Win.Mag. magazine box above, .375 H&H magazine box below, from a a re-barreled Whitworth Express Rifle, went from .375 H&H to .358 ST Alaskan:      Hey ! That is a Brown Precision, bare fiberglass blank that I bedded, "textured," and painted with Krylon, back when my gunsmith in Alaska claimed to be allergic to epoxy. Rip ... | |||
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Sir, that rifle is outstanding! | |||
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Measured from the breach, it sounds like you likely have a 23.62” or 60CM barrel. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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There is no reason to "pillar bed" a Mauser" as the bottom metal in front has a piller that meets the front ring, and when the two come together its a solid pillar, and the rear has a steel insert that serves as a pillar in any complete 98 action, by design, it was "the first" pillar bedded action, all you need to do is glass bed it, cross bolt it. If you don't have the rear insert I have a box full of them I can send you a couple. You have the cross bolts and I see the rear one is patched,but that's ok I suspect..I would also put a layer of electrictions tape around the rear of the tang and glass that area as it looks a little buggered up?? or has some sugared glass in there. Inasmuch as its had some custom work on it I would glass bed the complete rifle being carefull not to allow the glass to show in the barrel channel... You really have a lovely rifle there..I have one but its later than yours unfortunately but its still a good one..and very accurate. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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The Mauser action-spacing ferrules are not integral to the stock. Wood stocks can shrink and compress over time. Thus, real pillars added to the stock of a Mauser DO MAKE GOOD SENSE. Inert bedding pillar of stainless steel or aluminum or brass with epoxy glue-in will be much better than the sliding-fit Mauser spacers in the wood. Atkinson and I will disagree on this until the cows come home, just like we have many times in the past. Another thing he told us once was that some of the early .458 WIN Whitworth Express Rifles came with +3.6" magazine box/action length, same as their .375 H&H. I believe he might be right about that. But, my two later ones (late 1980s) had a 3.4" magazine box/action length. Rip ... | |||
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Thank you for your reply about the magazine box on the .458's. After reading your description below am I correct in thinking that the .458 rifles did NOT have a box extension and this rifle is 100% correct and is indeed the way they came from the factory? " Here is a great thing about the Whitworth Express Rifle in .458 Win.Mag.: The action has not been opened up toward the front only as they do with the .375 H&H Whitworth Express Rifle, which uses a sheet metal extension in the front of the box, and weakens the action by opening it all to the front." The reason I ask is because the rifle Baxter was in the process of buying he was buying from me. From his correspondence to me it sounded like he decided not to buy it because he thought the mag box had been extended to accommodate .458 shells loaded with longer bullets. From the info you provided it looks like just the opposite. The .375's had the extension and the .458's did not. Since this rifle was part of a small collection that contained a few heavy caliber rifles I purchased years ago I had no knowledge of the way they were made or the specs. Thanks to your reply I can relist the rifle with all the pertinent information. Thanks to all of the replies I can now relist it with the correct price. I sold it too cheap.  Thank You Tom | |||
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Tom, The only two Whitworth Express Rifles in .458 Win.Mag. that I have had my hands on, still own them, had the 3.4" magazine box length and action length. They were mid to late 1980s, new in box when I bought them. The actions were not opened up at factory. They had standard Mauser M98 features except for trigger and safety of the "commercial" Mauser. The pretty one had rings in the chamber, so got cleaned up to .458/.416 Ruger aka .458 WinRuger by Rusty McGee. It still has a .30-06-length magazine box and action length to match. The ugly one got magazine and action opened up by Rusty McGee to fit 2.8" brass/3.6" COL as a .458 Lott like Jack Built. It has remnant .458 WIN throat as a smooth transition into ballistic excellence, on a very ugly rifle. I still have in my possession 4 of the .375 H&H length Whitworth/Mark X actions, one of which came off of a Whitworth Express Rifle in .375 H&H. That is now the .358 STA pictured above. It was opened up at factory for +3.6" magazine box and action length. The other three actions came like that too. All of them are also mid to late 1980s. The hypothesis is that the earlier Whitworth Express Rifles of the 1970s might have come with same action length and magazine length for both .375 H&H and .458 Win.Mag. Or, was your rifle opened up by a gunsmith after it left the factory ? A rear pillar installed on a Mauser looks like a custom job, nonstandard, every one I got had the spacers like Atkinson says. A short follower in a long magazine box might also be a clue, though even the factory could screw that up. This is a call for a Whitworth Express Rifle Expert. Sumbuddy who know ? Were the 1970s Whitworth Express Rifles in .458 Win.Mag. made with actions opened up to H&H length at the factory?  Rip ... | |||
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I contacted in person two different sources for information. The first was Shaw Precision Guns Inc. They are the retail store of Shaw Custom Barrels Co. I showed him the rifle and he laughed and said, "Who do you think supplied the barrels to Birmingham?, we did." He then said all the mag boxes back then were enlarged to accommodate both calibers. (Factory work on this rifle, nothing done by some gunsmith after the fact). The next person was a good friend of mine that has been a gunsmith for 48+ years, some of them as a factory repair shop for Krieghoff, Winchester, Remington, and Beretta. When I told him I thought someone might have lengthened the box he looked at me like I was from Pluto. "Listen to me, ALL those guns from back then had the same length boxes. That isn't one of those Mark Tens you know. That is a Birmingham Whitworth you dummy, not the same as the later stuff they brought in. It was a lot easier for them to enlarge them all. Then it didn't matter what caliber they decided to put on the action." As far as that crack in the wood just in front of the rear bolt hole? "Hey, if that crack was in the rear I would worry about it. The rear bolt hole has the factory installed sleeve in it and that crack is from the wood drying out not recoil. I wouldn't put anything in there because one, it would not do anything to reinforce that spot and two, it would not do anything to reinforce that spot. Those two pieces of info put my mind at ease as far as wondering if someone altered this rifle. Thanks everyone for your input. | |||
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What are the differences, if any, between the Whitworth action made by Zastava and the Mark X action made by Zastava? | |||
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Probably none as far as strength. AS RIP stated
What my smith meant is that this rifle is from 1974 and these early guns had the longer boxes. | |||
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Yep, Rip when the cows come in, I just place my faith in Paul Mausers genious in that the front magazine has a piller the fits male to female in the mauser recoil lug recess, that makes a piller as sure as 2 plus 2 is 4..the rear is a section or sleeve of steel that acts as a piller and put a Mauser together as intended it fits together firm as as a rock. Therefore it must be inletted very carefully and many smith toss the rear sleever and file the front and inlet it as such as its oh so much easier and in which case you could file or cut the bottom metal flat and the protusion off the recoil lug and piller bed the rifle, but why? of the wood fits the original, done right it makes little difference what the wood does, but a better solution is use good wood as end grain is as good as glass..Rest in peace my friend, this too shall come to pass, its just a matter of who gets smarter the fastest!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Pillars are bedded into stock of Mauser 98 Magnum action at the factory, no mere spacers, threaded pillars grip the epoxy nicely:  https://www.mauser.com/en/maus...auser-98-magnum.html Rip ... | |||
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Baxter, the engraving is electrolytic etching. Great looking rifle. Much nicer wood than typical. Jeremy | |||
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I'm glad you. Brought up the under barrel recoil lug. I always recommend that. I know a guy that had an early version of the Interarms Alaskan in 458. It did not have any cross bolts under the little cross bolt caps. And No under barrel recoil lug. It spit the stock almost completely in half lengthways in less than 1 box of factory 500 he ammo. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Same with my Whitworth... ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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Great rifle, nice find. I own several, one in 375 HH and a 456 Win Mag. They are a pleasure to shoot. | |||
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Glad a lot of you guys like the rifle. Baxter sent it back to me and I put it back up for sale. | |||
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