Got my 500 B&M barreled action yesterday from SSK, thanks Terri, Brian and the rest of the crew for a job well done, looks very nice. 8-1/2 lbs as it sits now, feeds slick and smooth.

I put it in the Echols stock that was used for my 375/404 Jeffery/Saeed. Taking it to the range tomorrow to check the sights and do some chronograph work with some NF 450 old style solid flat points. 500 MDM dies shortened 3/10" produce perfect 500 B&M cases, this is a nice work-around to the very long lead times from Hornady.

I felt the 500 B&M was the point of diminishing marginal returns compared to the 500 MDM in a relatively lightweight rifle with a synthetic stock and a non WSM action length. The shorter case length also allows the use of the talon tips in the CEB bullets. It will be interesting to see what the recoil characteristics of the synthetic stock will be compared to the laminated stock AI stock on my 50 B&M. I decided to take the 375/404 barrel off the M70 action it was on when I saw how great my 416 B&M shot with the CEB 225 gr bullets, and the 500 B&M/ 500MDM seemed like a natural ( who needs a 375 rat gun, right Michael?)

Yes, I know the 500 B&M is small improvement over the 50 B&M; logic and reason has failed many times before, why change now

Thanks Michael for the 500 MDM dies, as well as the other goodies you sent.

We'll see how the Echols stock holds up to this thumper, stay tuned.

No offense intended at all, but your site name seems particularly appropriate. An 8 1/2 pound rifle in this calibre seems rather extreme.

You're a better man than I am.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
No offense intended at all, but your site name seems particularly appropriate. An 8 1/2 pound rifle in this calibre seems rather extreme.

You're a better man than I am.

Lavaca, the "numbers" these guns produce would having you thinking as you do, but it is not so.

I have the parent casing to this one, the .500 MDM, and it is wood stocked coming in at the same weight (8.5lbs) as HedTrauma's 500 B&M and it is comfortable and pleasant to hunt and shoot.
And they knock buffalo over like being hit with a sack of hammers.

Nice gun H.T.
I like the concept and reasons why Mike went that cartridge/magazine length, and it is very practical.
Less us know how it shoots when you've had the chance.

HT,

Nice setup with the Echols stock. Is that an 18” barrel? Perhaps it’s the photograph, but I thought the Echols fore end was a bit thinner. Perhaps the short barrel makes the fore end look fatter… Maybe not… Maybe so…

Regardless there should be zero fleas on the 500 B&M; a bit more oomph than the 50 B&M is only more of a good thing.

T......

That stock must be heavy, your rifle weighs in currently the same as mine and I have a AI Wood stock on mine.....

quote:

who needs a 375 rat gun, right Michael?

No truer words have ever been spoken!

Yes, 500 B&M is a somewhat different cartridge. I reckon in between the 50 B&M and 500 MDM. I recall your barrel is 18 inches, same as mine. So we drop 2 inches off standard barrel length compared to the MDM. Gained us no weight advantage when compared to my 19 inch 500 MDM rifles. But that must be taken into account when comparing velocities between the two. One of the main reasons for the 500 B&M is to use the longer 500 MDM Winchester action, and add the talon tips to the longer nose projection Raptors. What this buys one is 150 fps at 50 yard impacts, over the 500 MDM. Which would bring the two of them much closer in ballistics than just comparing the muzzle velocities. And, in addition would put the cartridge way ahead of 50 B&M at 50 yards with the same Raptor.

I sit here in Pretoria currently, awaiting for Tuesday morning to arrive and we are off to Zimbabwe. Main purpose of this hunt is my middle sons first cape buffalo. He is using his 475 B&M Super Short that he was so successful with in Australia 2012 where he hammered those Aussie buff with it. We were all rather impressed with the little rifles performance, and it exceeded what I thought it capable of by a large margin........

I am along for the ride, but I have with me my 500 B&M, gun #1..... The hammer Raptor for buffalo in the 500 MDM is the 450 gr Raptor, which can be run to 2450 fps easy with several powders, and even beyond that with some of the super powders..... V-N530 to 2550 fps. In the 500 B&M I was able to touch 2400 fps with the same bullet, and V-N530, but I ran out of that powder!!!!! On this trip I wanted to use the 410 Raptor, which I designed more for the 50 B&M to get velocities up a bit. In the 500 B&M we can run that 410 Raptor at 2500 fps with Talon Tip, to match POI a little better with the matching 450 #13 Solids and 450 North Fork Solids, I dropped the velocity to 2450 fps with the 410 Raptor. So these are the bullets I have currently that will go to Zimbabwe. Once Mark David has his buffalo sorted out, then I intend to hit a buffalo or two with these to see what happens.

Dies? None yet of course, but ordered. Hornady is still our choice of dies, but I tell you they have been dragging ass for over a year now on dies. We have had 50 B&M Alaskan dies ordered for well over a year now and still have not got them. Both Brian and I do our best to anticipate the need for dies and always try to keep them on hand. In the past an order of dies would be 3 months, well within reason, but no way we could anticipate Hornady being over a year!!!!!!! One thing to take into account, the B&Ms have become so popular that Hornady decided to have die reamers made for all the B&M cartridges, and this has been done out of house, so has taken some time to get done. As I understand the 50 BM AK Dies are done, but now they are waiting on the small component parts that must be done out of house as well....... 500 B&M Dies???? Who knows? I was able to do load data and pressure work on the 500 B&M because Sam made a size die for me, without that... well not sure! HT decided he could cut and fit a 500 MDM die to work and did just that, so at least we are up and running.........

I don't know really how much you will really gain in the field with the 500 B&M as opposed to the 50 B&M which has proven extremely effective on buffalo, hippo, and elephant. Something along the line of 100-150 fps per given bullet. Add that talon tip, and yes it buys even more. Sometimes I just need a project, and the 500 B&M is a project for me. Another one is coming, 458 B&M EX.... Same 2.5 inch RUM case, same action, maybe 20 inch barrel since we are dropping caliber so much. Again, primary purpose, add that talon tip to existing longer nose projection Raptors. All of which run through the 3.6 magazines. This cartridge should exceed Lott by a good margin, with the advantage of adding the Talon Tips..... Should be interesting as well.......... I might add as well the 458 B&M EX is not too far off of Jeffes 458 AR, a superb cartridge... with the B&M just a tiny bit shorter I think because of its primary missions...... Data should be damn close to being interchangeable. Of course when rifle is completed I will be doing a full pressure workup with all suitable bullets, and we will know exactly where it is.......

HT...... Absolutely keep us posted, most interested in what you come up with of course....... Hey,you and I are the only ones on the planet with one of these!!!!!! HEH...... Exclusive!

Michael

Update

I took my 50 B&M and my 500 B&M to the range for comparison, both were with iron sights, the 500 B&M was shot to chronograph some loads and shot offhand to check the iron sights. I fired a total of 27 rounds thru the 500 B&M.


The 50 B&M weighs 9 lbs in an AI laminated stock

The 500 B&M weighs 8.5 lbs in the Echols stock

In both rifles I was using 450gr NF FP loads that averaged 2275 fps

There was a very distinct difference in recoil between the two rifles. The 50 B&M has a very sharp recoil impulse, the 500 B&M has more of a softer recoil impulse, sort of a hard push. The 500 B&M is a much more pleasant rifle to shoot.

The 50 B&M will launch the NEC widowed front sight hood into orbit after about 4 shots if you don't pay attention. The front sight hood on the 500 B&M stayed in place the whole time.

I thought everything was fine until I got home and took the action out of the stock, see below. The short barrel on the B&M and the great design of the Echols stock makes this a very fast handling, easy to hit with and easy to carry rifle. It is a very well mannered thumper. Alas, it was not meant to be

I wonder what a B&C Medalist stock would be like on a 500 B&M?

Likewise, what would a B&C Medalist stock be like on a 50 B&M, would it change the recoil characteristics at all?

Best, Russ

Well, crap! Guess I should have taken the action out of the stock and looked at before getting all giddy about my awesome success.



Took the action out of the stock and found the area behind the recoil lug had cracked

Sigh, I had such high hopes for this stock.

Oh well, looks like a trip to AI is indicated.

I wish I could find a B&C Medalist to look at to see how close of a fit it is.

Got them busted stock blues

HT, I still think you could make it work. Perhaps a crossbolt, and/or fiberglassing in a steel reinforcement to support the recoil lug. Fiberglass is easy to work with.

HT check out the stock reinforcing recommendations in this thread:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...511005102#6511005102

You could also PM RIP (Ron Berry) regarding the stock reinforcing he's done to his McMillian stock for his M70 based 12.7x68 Magnum (.500 caliber on a 2.65" 338 Lapua Magnum case). It's holding up very well and delivering excellent accuracy.

I believe I'm very glad I'm using the B&C Medalist stocks on my two M98 Mauser BB rifles right now as it appears the 50 cal (.500 and .510) hunting rifle cartridges are very hard on synthetic and wood laminate stocks!

Regarding the B&C Medalist stock for M70... That is the stock offered on the SC M70 Extreme Weather rifles. Other than the barrel channel needing to be enlarged the action should fit without additional work required; the magazine cut is already for the 3.6" magazine 'cause Winchester just blocks that magazine for the 3.4" length cartridges...

My M98 Mauser B&C stocks required my gunsmith to machine the magazine cut in the bedding lock to properly fit my Wiebe 4MJ custom bottom metal with its integral 3.6" magazine.

Good luck!

Russ
Was your stock poured with the Magnum Fill or the standard fill ? If someone was to ordered a stock for a that type of caliber to begin with I would have certainly recommend the Mag fill and installed a pair of 1/4x20 threaded cross bolts glassed in place. I put them in everything I assemble today regardless of the caliber from 7X57 to 458 Lott. One goes between the recoil lug and the front guard screw and one in the web between the back of the magazine box and trigger mortise. Even so I have yet to see one of our Lotts break behind the recoil Lug. I have seen a few crack in the web between the box and trigger mortise, hence the threaded rod treatment. This is very common with the Edge/Air bead construction stocks. Did you have enough clearance around the front guard screw and was this very action glassed into this stock from the start or is this a different action going into that stock with a bedding job from a different action?

Lately I am having McMillan use the Edge Carbon Fiber Shell that is than filled with Magnum Fill fiberglass. The combo looks very promising for every application.

I would love to hold that stock in my habds to try and determine why it broke and will pay the shipping
435-755-6842

Just my input.

Mr. Echols that is very good information to know, and a very generous offer.

Happy Father's Day everyone...

quote:

Originally posted by Head Trauma:
...
Took the action out of the stock and found the area behind the recoil lug had cracked

Sigh, I had such high hopes for this stock.

Oh well, looks like a trip to AI is indicated.
...

Yeah, looks like those AI guys have the answers.

Russ
I looked up the your invoice, that is if your from Il. You did in fact receive a Mag Fill stock. I am not at all familiar with the 500 B&M and the recoil it generates. I vaugely remember that this stock was going on a 404 Jeffery, but I understand how things change. What bedding compond did you use? As I have said to my knowledge I have never had any Lott break the reocil lud area I quite a few have left this shop, not saying it can't happen. I'm Sure McMillan would like to see the stock as well. Toss that thing in a box and return it, I'll comp the shipping as I stated. By any chance did you shoot in a Led Sled ?

D'Arcy

The .500 B&M is a 2.5" long shortened RUM case using a .500 caliber bullet. It has a similar case capacity to the .470 Capstick @ approximately 104grs H2O overflow case capacity. I believe the bullet(s) used were 450gr weight.

D'Arcy, thank you for jumping in on this, I will try to answer your questions as best I can.

Yes, it was a magnum fill

It was bedded with JB Weld or Marine Tex, can't remember which. I did the bedding myself, as I have on a number of rifles over the years (maybe that's the problem

Never shot on a Lead Sled

Yes, there was sufficient clearance for the front action screw. The entire buttress behind the recoil lug from the top to the bottom of the recoil lug recess has been displaced rearward about .05" (Z axis).

I have had this stock for quite some time, first as a 404 Jeffery, then as a 375/404JS and now as a 500 B&M. The same action has been used for all 3 iterations and no other.

The actions screws were snug and tight prior to shooting.

If the failure is due to negligence, poor workmanship, or lack of knowledge on my part, I certainly do not expect you to eat the replacement cost. I knew that by putting a thumper like a 500 B&M in this stock I was venturing into uncharted waters, sometimes stuff happens.

I am, however, very interested in the post mortem autopsy findings.

I will send the stock your way next couple of days.

Thank you once again for your involvement and concern in this matter.

Russ

Russ
Their might be one other possibility and it's not a reflection on you're bedding efforts by any means as this is very tough to confirm until you're already in trouble. Many Winchesters both Pre-64's and the G-Series actions suffer from Reverse draft in the recoil lug area. A pic is worth a 1000 words and I have yet to figure our how to post my own pics as I have some j-pegs showing this very dilemma.

In short the 90 degree recoil lug was not machined truly at a 90 degree angel to the base or flat to the rear of the recoil lug. It OFTEN TIMES is leaning towards the magazine box,.002 to .003 is very common. I have seen them up to .005 and .006. So if you do not use a layer of masking tape on the front, sides and bottom of the recoil lug and bed the barreled action in NAKED and the recoil lug does have some of this reverse draft you will stick the barreled action in the stock and it will require a lot of pounding and muscle to get the barreled action out of this bedding job as it is now really bound in place. The tape on the face and sides does allow some latitude to remove an action with a minor amount of reverse draft.

So you can damaged and fracture the recoil lug parent material in pulling out a wedged barrel action. In time it will break on even a moderate magnum. I'm not saying that is what happened but I damn well know what can happen as I have personally done it. In fact I think I have made every mistake possible in the realm of rifle making at one time or another.

For many years now I set each and every action up in my Burgess fixture and machined the underside dead true before it's bedded and then install the tape anyway. No more stuck actions or broken bedding,

I do the same at the rear of the flat just ahead of the magazine box boss as well. If both these areas are leaning towards one another, while rare, your project can now be classified as one from hell. It is not uncommon to have the base of the action machined on a slant as well or wider at the base than just under the radius found at the top of the flat side walls also making a wedge. This is not an issue on a 700 or a 98 due to the shape of each action.

So if this was the case perhaps the recoil of the 500 B&M was the final straw. Its food for thought any way.

Posted for D'Arcy:

Note that with the action parallel to the mill table that the bottom section of the recoil lug has cleaned up but the entire lug face has yet to clean up even after .004 (pick a number) has been removed Often times the lug cleans up on a diagonal proving that the face of the recoil lug is not perpendicular to center line of the action. Sort of negates the use of an Aluminum bedding block as a cure all. In a severe case of runout the recoil lug might only contact on the lower right or left corner of the bedding block. With a factory action there is no free lunch.



Another pic of a cleaned-up action & a taped barreled action ready to bed in Marine-tex

Great information and photographs demonstrating the discussion. Thanks for posting...

Posting these for D'Arcy.

Many thanks to both Keith and Chuck for posting these pics. In regard to the threaded rod you need to tie both sides of the shell together so the ends of the threaded rod should lay just under the surface of the shell, say .025 to .050. Which typically runs .100 to .125 in thickness.

Yep, I do it like D'Arcy does, except my allthread is not recessed, but covered over proudly with JB Weld Camo.
It was so pretty that I did not have the heart to sand and paint it.
Here is that Brown Precision stock that I rebuilt from short action to long action all by myself, for a Winchester M70 404 Jeffery:



The McMillan stocks I have used on 500 A2, and .500/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved have indeed had the "Magnum Fill" and do indeed have reinforcement with hidden all thread and pillars.
They stand up well.

The B&C Medalist and CZ Kevlar stocks require no extra reinforcement, having full metallic endoskeletons.

quote:

Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
Russ
Their might be one other possibility and it's not a reflection on you're bedding efforts by any means as this is very tough to confirm until you're already in trouble. Many Winchesters both Pre-64's and the G-Series actions suffer from Reverse draft in the recoil lug area. A pic is worth a 1000 words and I have yet to figure our how to post my own pics as I have some j-pegs showing this very dilemma.

In short the 90 degree recoil lug was not machined truly at a 90 degree angel to the base or flat to the rear of the recoil lug. It OFTEN TIMES is leaning towards the magazine box,.002 to .003 is very common. I have seen them up to .005 and .006. So if you do not use a layer of masking tape on the front, sides and bottom of the recoil lug and bed the barreled action in NAKED and the recoil lug does have some of this reverse draft you will stick the barreled action in the stock and it will require a lot of pounding and muscle to get the barreled action out of this bedding job as it is now really bound in place. The tape on the face and sides does allow some latitude to remove an action with a minor amount of reverse draft.

So you can damaged and fracture the recoil lug parent material in pulling out a wedged barrel action. In time it will break on even a moderate magnum. I'm not saying that is what happened but I damn well know what can happen as I have personally done it. In fact I think I have made every mistake possible in the realm of rifle making at one time or another.

For many years now I set each and every action up in my Burgess fixture and machined the underside dead true before it's bedded and then install the tape anyway. No more stuck actions or broken bedding,

I do the same at the rear of the flat just ahead of the magazine box boss as well. If both these areas are leaning towards one another, while rare, your project can now be classified as one from hell. It is not uncommon to have the base of the action machined on a slant as well or wider at the base than just under the radius found at the top of the flat side walls also making a wedge. This is not an issue on a 700 or a 98 due to the shape of each action.

So if this was the case perhaps the recoil of the 500 B&M was the final straw. Its food for thought any way.

Thanks for helping me figure out why my Winchester 70 7mm RM in a factory wood stock that was bedded by the previous owners gunsmith and very difficult to remove and put back in stock....hope I didn't cracked it....put a square on the bottom of the action to the lug it looks like it's a couple thousands lean to the magazine.

What do you recommended torquing action screws on a Winchester 70 two piece and one piece ??

Thanks CW

CW
With Aluminum pillars 50-55 inch-pounds front and rear and 30 inch-pounds for the center screw if it is also fit with a pillar.

A lot of great info here from a respected source. I almost feel like I need to pay a tuition fee.

DArcy,

A couple of quic questions if I may, regarding the photograph of the barreled action with the green and black tape...
Do you glass bed the entire action in one bedding session?
And do you glass bed the barrel, or a portion of the barrel in a second step, or is it just free-floated?

Thanks,

Now with D'Arcy sharing all his "secret, 87 step process" all the local gun plumbers will now be able to get rich building "just as good as" rifles for thousands and thousands of dollars less.

The bedding of the pillars and barreled action is basically done in 3 basic operations. With the final operation bedding the barreled action as seen taped above and the floor plate and trigger bow Assembly all in one shot. The barrels are floated from the receiver face forward, usually.

This system is more difficult to describe than it is to do and works well for me.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Now with D'Arcy sharing all his "secret, 87 step process" all the local gun plumbers will now be able to get rich building "just as good as" rifles for thousands and thousands of dollars less.

Ha...except there is far more that he has not shared and even these shared are not cheap when having someone else do the work.

quote:

Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
The bedding of the pillars and barreled action is basically done in 3 basic operations. With the final operation bedding the barreled action as seen taped above and the floor plate and trigger bow Assembly all in one shot. The barrels are floated from the receiver face forward, usually.

This system is more difficult to describe than it is to do and works well for me.

Thank you for sharing...

D'Arcy, I sent you a PM

Stock is inbound, ETA 6/18

Update

My stock was shipped to D'Arcy this week. D'Arcy graciously reimbursed me for the shipping.

After he inspected my stock and consulted with Mr. Dick Davis of McMillan, McMillan has opted to replace the stock.

The stock, floorplate assembly and magazine are on the way to McMillan. D'Arcy is going to have them do a full magnum pour for the entire stock as well as some reinforcing hardware in the stock buttress behind the recoil lug. When I get the new stock back I will pillar bed it with Marine Tex.

Thank you D'Arcy for facilitating the replacement of the stock.

Thank you Mr. Davis for replacing my stock and for working with D'Arcy to get a replacement stock fabricated for my little friend.

This is going to be a nifty little thumper

Stay tuned.

Very cool rifle and thread.

Impressive service by D'Arcy and Mcmillan. And very educational contributions.

Kudos to DArcy Echols and Dick Davis of McMillan for there actions in resolving this issue.

Well done gentlemen! Well done...