I'm planning my next project rifle. I've just fired a CZ .416 Rigby and loved it.

I can access quite cheap Zastava 458WM or the longer actioned 375H&H Rifles. (ie: Remington 798). I use Lothar Walther pre-chambered barrels and have a Richards Microfit Brown on Brown, laminated stock to suit.

I will be hunting Buff and larger plains game. Which calibre and action should I choose ?

If you are going to use the same rifle for buf and larger plains game I would go with the 404 Jeffery.

The 404 can be made more svelte than a 416 Rigby.

A 400 grain bullet at 2200fps is plenty powerful enough and easy to shoot.

I have shot a fair amount of game with a 450/400 3 1/4" double rifle, skunks, armidillos, deer, pigs, black bear, caribou [2] , baboons, warthog, zebra, cape buff, lion and bull elephant.

Plenty of killing power.

There's little doubt what I would choose for myself. I hesitate to put it into terms of a recommendation, because there are those who will say it doesn't matter what I think, since I have little experience with big bores, other that I have shot several, and owned two 458s, one of which I have now, plus a 375.

Nevertheless, of the selection you gave, it would be the 458WM, using some of the tougher 400 and 350 gr bullets.

However, for the purposes mentioned, in Australia, the 416 Taylor seems very appropriate. I'm thinking you mean Australian buff, rather than African buff.

Otherwise, I would choose a 375 H&H, because they are readily available in factory rifles.

The 404 and the 416 Rigby would be the next to last and last choice, respectively. Actually, neither are on my list at all.

I'll give a few reasons for my choices:

I think the 2.5" belted magnum cases provide all the power and velocity needed, and they fit into a more compact and readily available action, which will require no modifications at all to feed PERFECTLY. Also, my Speer manual shows right around 100gr of powder in the 416 Rigby to get a little over 2300 fps. The 416 Taylor uses about 75 grs of powder to get about the same velocity.

Use the 400 gr for Buff, and 350 gr for everything else.

Also, I wouldn't use a Mauser, but instead I would use a Ruger 77 MKII action, or a CZ 550 medium action, such as CZ makes for the 7mm Mag - just rebarrel it. The advantage of the Ruger is that it's made in stainless, and stocks are easier to find, unless of course you just like the CZ stock, then it's not a problem with the CZ either.

Again I say, for emphasis, either the Ruger or the CZ 550 Medium action (with magnum bolt face) will require no - none - zip - zero - modifications to feed correctly with either the 458WM or the 416 Taylor. Buy the whole rifle, already chambered in a magnum cartridge, and simply true the action up, and rebarrel it. The factory stock can be used.

Here is some relevant and interesting reading:

http://www.gunsandammo.com/con...416-taylor-revisited

http://www.chuckhawks.com/416Taylor.htm

Good luck with your project. I hope I've helped with your decision.

KB

Actually KB he means cape buff, not that it matters as the same cartridge is good for both

Cheers,
Mark.

I like the 416 Rigby. It has power for Buff or Elephant and range for PG. I have read several PH use it for there (off-duty) personal hunting one-gun fit all choice.

Why would you include the 458WM in this inquiry and exclude the Lott from your question? Or for that matter exclude the 375H&H on the lower end?

I guess you like the 458WM but not the 416Rem? Ammo availability or tradition?

The 404 is a great old classic. I would assume you would want to optimize the chamber for the Hornady loading. Been lots of talk on this forum about specs. The Hornady load is a nice step up in power for Africa, but kinda ruined the 404 for NA and big bears, IMHO, only.

The 416Rem might be the simplest conversion. And have some advantage in mag capacity? I assume Winchester is serious about revival of this round.

you can't go wrong with any of your choices. I don't know pricing in Oz, but in the states, the cz 550 magnum in 416 rigby is cheaper than buying a gun and rebarreling. you "can't" put a 416 rigby into this zastava action, in a cost effective way.

if you can find a complete 458 or 416, go that route

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
Zastava 458WM or the longer actioned 375H&H Rifles. (ie: Remington 798).

these are actually the same length action, identical... only openned on the bottom, in fact, the only thing "longer" is the bottommetal and the slot .. same lenth action .. i can't that enough .. its NOT a longer action, which would make it a "magnum" mauser, when its just an openned up standard 98

quote:

Originally posted by Mark R:
Actually KB he means cape buff, not that it matters as the same cartridge is good for both

Cheers,
Mark.

It probably matters, if only in bullet selection. If I had known he was asking about an African rifle, I wouldn't have posted, since there is a whole different mindset for those with opinions on the subject, which IMO has little to do with practical. I have little to contribute to such discussions where one would choose a fat obsolete cartridge burning over 100grs of powder, when there is a perfectly good cartridge burning 3/4 the powder, for the same velocity.

KB

As long as you have an action that will fit it, it's hard to argue against the 416 Rigby. Less recoil than the 458, higher velocity for longer range shots at Plains Game than the 404 or 458, bullet selection in 416, better penetration than just about anything, low pressure, high tradition. I just finished a month safari where I took An Elephant, Hippo, Zebra, Hartebeast, a Kudu, and a Steenbok, all with the same rifle. Unless you're an experienced and dedicated Big Bore nut, the 416 Rigby is about the upper threshold of recoil tolerance for most folks.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
As long as you have an action that will fit it, it's hard to argue against the 416 Rigby. Less recoil than the 458, higher velocity for longer range shots at Plains Game than the 404 or 458, bullet selection in 416, better penetration than just about anything, low pressure, high tradition. I just finished a month safari where I took An Elephant, Hippo, Zebra, Hartebeast, a Kudu, and a Steenbok, all with the same rifle. Unless you're an experienced and dedicated Big Bore nut, the 416 Rigby is about the upper threshold of recoil tolerance for most folks.

Are you paying attention here Kabluewy? Biebs is right. Not only would I pick the Rigby but would pick the .450 Rigby over your .458WM and did so with my .450 Dakota. With the Dakota, I can shoot 450 TSX bullets at 2400 fps and it is just loafing along.

Code4, the Rigby is a fantastic cartridge. It will shoot way flatter at less pressure than a .458WM and hit way harder with less pressure than a .375 H&H but the H&H is going to generate less recoil. If you liked the Rigby, go with it and don't look back. Load up some 350 grain TSX and banded solids for it and you are good for everything from warthogs to elephants

P.S. Wayne Jacobson just finished a complete makeover of my CZ .416 Rigby and I will pick it up at UPS this afternoon

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
As long as you have an action that will fit it, it's hard to argue against the 416 Rigby. Less recoil than the 458, higher velocity for longer range shots at Plains Game than the 404 or 458, bullet selection in 416, better penetration than just about anything, low pressure, high tradition. I just finished a month safari where I took An Elephant, Hippo, Zebra, Hartebeast, a Kudu, and a Steenbok, all with the same rifle. Unless you're an experienced and dedicated Big Bore nut, the 416 Rigby is about the upper threshold of recoil tolerance for most folks.

Are you paying attention here Kabluewy? Biebs is right.
Yes, I'm paying attention. Good post Biebs and Dave

Not only would I pick the Rigby but would pick the .450 Rigby over your .458WM and did so with my .450 Dakota. With the Dakota, I can shoot 450 TSX bullets at 2400 fps and it is just loafing along.

Code4, the Rigby is a fantastic cartridge. It will shoot way flatter at less pressure than a .458WM and hit way harder with less pressure than a .375 H&H but the H&H is going to generate less recoil. If you liked the Rigby, go with it and don't look back. Load up some 350 grain TSX and banded solids for it and you are good for everything from warthogs to elephants

P.S. Wayne Jacobson just finished a complete makeover of my CZ .416 Rigby and I will pick it up at UPS this afternoon

I for one would like to see some pictures posted of your "new" CZ in 416, and a range report, and hopefully a field report. That's something to get enthused about.

KB

I would go with the 458wm and load 450's for everything. Lots of cheap bullets and reduced loads for practice, good fun too.

But any of your choices would be great.

JPK

I have a 458 and am building a 416 Rigby. The 458 is new (to me). Its a Winchester Safari Express. I am building the 416 on a CZ 550 that was my 458. For me the magazine box was too long for the 458WM and I ended up finding a 416 Rigby bbl. so the change was made.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
As long as you have an action that will fit it, it's hard to argue against the 416 Rigby. Less recoil than the 458, higher velocity for longer range shots at Plains Game than the 404 or 458, bullet selection in 416, better penetration than just about anything, low pressure, high tradition. I just finished a month safari where I took An Elephant, Hippo, Zebra, Hartebeast, a Kudu, and a Steenbok, all with the same rifle. Unless you're an experienced and dedicated Big Bore nut, the 416 Rigby is about the upper threshold of recoil tolerance for most folks.

Are you paying attention here Kabluewy? Biebs is right.
Yes, I'm paying attention. Good post Biebs and Dave

Not only would I pick the Rigby but would pick the .450 Rigby over your .458WM and did so with my .450 Dakota. With the Dakota, I can shoot 450 TSX bullets at 2400 fps and it is just loafing along.

Code4, the Rigby is a fantastic cartridge. It will shoot way flatter at less pressure than a .458WM and hit way harder with less pressure than a .375 H&H but the H&H is going to generate less recoil. If you liked the Rigby, go with it and don't look back. Load up some 350 grain TSX and banded solids for it and you are good for everything from warthogs to elephants

P.S. Wayne Jacobson just finished a complete makeover of my CZ .416 Rigby and I will pick it up at UPS this afternoon

I for one would like to see some pictures posted of your "new" CZ in 416, and a range report, and hopefully a field report. That's something to get enthused about.

KB

Ha! Don't let these guys try to intimidate you. Nothing wrong with your original recommendation of the 416 Taylor.

It will do anything the other recommended cartridges will and better than some.

Usually these types of posts wind up with the guy deciding to build something else anyway!

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
I'm planning my next project rifle. I've just fired a CZ .416 Rigby and loved it.

I can access quite cheap Zastava 458WM or the longer actioned 375H&H Rifles. (ie: Remington 798). I use Lothar Walther pre-chambered barrels and have a Richards Microfit Brown on Brown, laminated stock to suit.

I will be hunting Buff and larger plains game. Which calibre and action should I choose ?

,416 Remington Mag. Use 400gr slugs for dangerous game and 350gr Swift A-Frame for large plains game. The 350gr slug sighted 2.5" high at 100 yards will hit point of aim at 200 and will only be about 5 inches low at 300 yards. I suspect other then .458WM ammo is less expensive then for choices you have listed.

I'd go with the 416. I've used my 416 Weatherby on chipmonks, squirres, whitetails, elk, impala, wildebeest and kudu and carried as back-up when after Cape buffalo (though used my 600 OK on that). Two PHs and the safari outfitters all said the 416 was perfect for any DG or PG we were after. Long-range potential, Hammer of Thor on game of any size, abundance of bullets from a myriad of giant as well as boutique manufacturers and plentiful loading data - you couldn't go wrong.

You can't go wrong with any of them, just choose the one that tickles your fancy. For me that would be the 404J.

404J on a standard action. You know you want it!

Cheers, Chris

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

Are you paying attention here Kabluewy? Biebs is right.
Yes, I'm paying attention. Good post Biebs and Dave

P.S. Wayne Jacobson just finished a complete makeover of my CZ .416 Rigby and I will pick it up at UPS this afternoon

I for one would like to see some pictures posted of your "new" CZ in 416, and a range report, and hopefully a field report. That's something to get enthused about.
KB

Ha! Don't let these guys try to intimidate you. Nothing wrong with your original recommendation of the 416 Taylor. It will do anything the other recommended cartridges will and better than some.

Sometimes I have a notion to argue, sometimes not. This is one of those not times. That's partially because they are all good cartridges, and everyone has the POV, and everyone is right in their own way.

I really like what I know about the 416 Taylor though, and the great .416 bullets available for it. I have wanted one from the time I first learned about it. Instead, I got too practical and got a 458WM, and it's still the right choice for me right now.

One thing about the 416 Rigby, right off the top, is the amount of powder it takes to fuel it. Something ain't right there, in comparison to all the other cartridges mentioned. Over 100 grs of powder to get 2350 fps? That just seems odd to me.

Another reason I'm being non-argumentative is because of the mention of a CZ Safari 550 being worked over by AHR. That's interesting regardless of chambering. First, I never met a CZ 550 that I didn't like. Second, AHR turns them from something nice into something special. It's worth a few oohs and awes of admiration. That's why I asked for pictures.

KB

quote:

Over 100 grs of powder to get 2350 fps?

Big case, big grains.

Mate build yourself the 404Jeffery. I had a 458 thought it was a waist of time,I have only shot a 416 rem mag and could live with out having to ever shot one on a range again(I am sure as with everything different in the field) BUT I did make a 404J on a mauser action and I have killed lots with it including buffalo and its great

A quick topic related question. Can you fellas obtain .416 Taylor Headstamped Brass over there in the USA ?

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
A quick topic related question. Can you fellas obtain .416 Taylor Headstamped Brass over there in the USA ?

Quality Cartridge and A-square both make brass for it.

http://www.midwayusa.com/brows...*652***670***9013***

So the question from me code4 is why not the Ruger 416? Headstamp brass, dies and everything else except for nostalgia

Cheers,
Mark.

If you own a 458 Lott or need to rebarrel one, would it be worthwhile go with the 450 Ackley or 458 Watts? Is either of these better then one of the others?

The 458 Lott loads seem to be listed around 2300FPS and the other two with the same bullet seem to be only 100FPS more.

Is the 450 Rigby Rimless or 450 Dakota a cost effective option? Other then loosing some magazine capacity, are there any other negatives? More case capacity seems to offer a lower pressure which is good.

in a standard length action, the 416 ruger makes sense.. its obviated both the 416 taylor and the 416 ar .. even though the AR is a larger and cheaper solution for the day to day reloading.

there's no real good reason to go to the ackley or the watts over the lott .. if you DID, mark the barrel 458lott IMP .. that what your headstamps are fine.

quote:

there's no real good reason to go to the ackley or the watts over the lott .. if you DID, mark the barrel 458lott IMP .. that what your headstamps are fine.

This is an excellent idea for anyone with or considering a Watts or Ackeley.

JPK

In my 404 Jeffery I can get the Northfork 380 grain bullet to 2,400 fps, and the Barnes 400 grain TSX to 2,260 fps with no problems whatsoever (with VihtaVuori powder).

My CZ 416 Rigby might allow me to go for more, but I get enough with the 404J in a trimmer package.

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
My CZ 416 Rigby might allow me to go for more, but I get enough with the 404J in a trimmer package.

What makes the 404J trimmer or more svelte? Don't both cartridges use the same basic rifle action? Is it related to rifle weight with lower recoil in the 404J?

Thanks!

Thank you everyone for your input. However I've bit the bullet and changed my Zastava order to one for a (Edit) CZ in .416 Rigby at a very good price from my local gun shop.

It is always cheaper in the long run to buy the factory product and with a bit of gunsmithing the CZ will look and perform as I wish.

Here is a Video of my 16yo son and myself shooting a mates .416 Rigby. They tried to trick him into a flinch by empty loading the rifle for his first shot. They failed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZbkL2eBZBA

The smile on his face was priceless.

I also failed by dropping the rifle from my shoulder to reload.

Owning a 404 Jeffery with a Lothar-Walther barrel I am very biased to the 404 Jeffery. It's a great round. You can load it up to "Kick Your Ass" Recoil or load it down. Mine is made on a Montana Rifle Co. long action, and it feeds like a champ.

I also don't think you can go wrong with a "416 Anything". 416s have a great reputation for penetration.

quote:

One thing about the 416 Rigby, right off the top, is the amount of powder it takes to fuel it. Something ain't right there, in comparison to all the other cartridges mentioned. Over 100 grs of powder to get 2350 fps? That just seems odd to me.

The 416 Rigby can get 2400 FPS at about 40,000 PSI instead of 60,000 PSI that the smaller cased 416's need to run that fast. Load the Rigby to 60,000 PSI get near 2700 FPS.

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
My CZ 416 Rigby might allow me to go for more, but I get enough with the 404J in a trimmer package.

What makes the 404J trimmer or more svelte? Don't both cartridges use the same basic rifle action? Is it related to rifle weight with lower recoil in the 404J?

Thanks!

A 404J can be built on a standard bolt length Mauser action. You not only get a shorter bolt stroke (than on any magnum length action, or CZ action) but with Duane Weibe's bottom metal you can get 4 down in the same size package as the good ol' Mauser 98 in 8 X 57.

Because the recoil of a 404J, when loaded to historical specs, is very manageable, you can carry a lighter rifle. Now, you can always download a 416 Rigby, but you can't change the size of the cartridge or the action needed for it.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

One thing about the 416 Rigby, right off the top, is the amount of powder it takes to fuel it. Something ain't right there, in comparison to all the other cartridges mentioned. Over 100 grs of powder to get 2350 fps? That just seems odd to me.

The 416 Rigby can get 2400 FPS at about 40,000 PSI instead of 60,000 PSI that the smaller cased 416's need to run that fast. Load the Rigby to 60,000 PSI get near 2700 FPS.

I don't have the conversion formula, but I was thinking 43,500 CUP converted to much closer to 50,000 PSI, rather than 40,000 PSI.

OK, so the 416 Rigby runs well at low pressure. The loads I see by Hodgdon all show reduced charges of slow powder, which means the case aint full. As I recall, this is a classic no-no for other cartridges. So why would it suddenly be OK for the famed 416R? Try that with your 338 WM, and see what happens.

As you say, it could be loaded up to normal operating pressure for a modern cartridge. I believe the brass is made to handle it. But that speed probably exceeds the design specs of the softnose bullets. Barnes would probably be ok.

But, at the full pressure/speed you might as well use the 416 Weatherby. My understanding is it's the same case with the belt, a great innovation.

If you guys are so into classic, and get off on using a fat old case designed to hold enough cordite, why aren't you so keen about being really classic, and load with cordite?

KB

quote:

But, at the full pressure/speed you might as well use the 416 Weatherby. Same case with the belt, a great innovation

The silly and needless belt and the venturi should is a turn off to me

So is it true or false that you can safely load the 416 Rigby up to 416 Weatherby levels/pressures?

I have heard conflicting stories on this.

Is the load data interchangeable? (starting low and working up of course)

quote:

Originally posted by mrjulian_1970:
So is it true or false that you can safely load the 416 Rigby up to 416 Weatherby levels/pressures?

I have heard conflicting stories on this.

Is the load data interchangeable? (starting low and working up of course)

I can't answer your question for sure, and wouldn't dare try. I hope some can.

I think, from what I've read, that there are a lot of wildcats using the 416R case, necked up and down, which are loaded to much higher pressure than common in std 416R loads. Examples are 338 Lapua, one or two of the 9.3 wildcats, the 470 Mbogo, and others.

I think I recall reading something about Lapua beefing up their 338 Lapua brass for really high pressure. Of course the 338 Lapua isn't a wildcat, but I think it started that way as 338/416R.

This is mostly territory that is out of my league. It would certainly be interesting to know more facts. Obviously, the standard cautions are well advised. This is an arena that I would be very uncomfortable experimenting in, without some pretty good facts. 100gr ++ of powder will make a pretty good bomb out of your svelte 416R.

I suggest that you post (start) a new discussion with a question on this subject. That might work.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by mrjulian_1970:
So is it true or false that you can safely load the 416 Rigby up to 416 Weatherby levels/pressures?

I have heard conflicting stories on this.

Is the load data interchangeable? (starting low and working up of course)

i will NEVER say that you can...
i will tell you norma makes the 416fr and W brass .. of simular case capacity ...

*I* have loaded 416r up a bit ... with nothing but greater braindamage from it .. but you must be accountable for your own safety

quote:

Originally posted by mrjulian_1970:
So is it true or false that you can safely load the 416 Rigby up to 416 Weatherby levels/pressures?

Yes you can ... but not in an old rifle or using old brass. Mate of mine is running his 416Rigby (CZ550) at these levels using Bertram brass and projectiles. It can be done, the why you need to answer yourself. Last weekend I tried this load and a 460Wby at 2500fps ... I'll take the 460 thanks!
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Thank you everyone for your input. However I've bit the bullet and changed my Zastava order to one for a Ruger CZ in .416 Rigby at a very good price from my local gun shop.

So what did code4 do? Buy a Ruger or a CZ?

I have a .416 Rigby cause it's nostalgic but if I needed a working rifle and didn't care about nostalgia and such, it would be a .416RM. You can even buy HSM ammunition by the thousand for a LOT less than traditional African hunting calibers.