quote:

Originally posted by DigitalDan:


Speculation such as the first post is misplaced in representation. At 10' the entry wound from a load of Buck(any size) will be about 1.5" in diameter, and there is no skull in North America that will stop or deflect it. It is my observation that few people actually use buckshot for hunting, and fewer understand its lethality or limitations.

I think you misunderstood the original post, and you reinforce my point. For a load of buckshot to be effective, it has to be patterened tight enough to be effectively a single projectile. I still find it hard to believe that such a charge would be any where near as effective as a big bore rifle firing a premium expanding bullet @ 2400 fps. The big bore rifle will not only make a 1 1/2" entry, it'll make a fist dia wound channel clear through the bear.

If you take a weapon that is only effective at 10 feet, and only for a head shoot, then you're a fool. The big bore rifle will be as effective, likely more so at 10', which is a range that means you screwed up, as well as 30 ft, 50 ft, or more so. Now if you wound instead of kill the bear with your shotgun, and it doesn't kill you, what are you going to do about finishing off the bear, with your weapon that is only good at 10'?

Paul, you're right, I thought you said 10' instead of 10 yards, my mistake. Okay, the entrance wound would be 3-5" in diameter, there still isn't any skull in N.A. that's going to stop or deflect it. Shot patterns do not open up as fast as you seem to think. Shoot a quail at 10 yards someday with a load of #8 and tell me how much is left for dinner. I thought I made it clear that it would be unlikely for somebody hunting in big bear country to be carrying a scattergun for the most part, so I find the entire discussion an excercise of conjecture. And BTW, you're quite wrong that Buckshot depends on acting as a single projectile to be effective. What is required is that the substantial majority of the shot hit a vital zone. It sounds to me like you have more experience reading about buckshot than using it. That's fine with me, but if you think I'm the fool then shame on you. I've killed a few tons of critters with the stuff, I know what it will do, what it won't, and to barrow a phrase, I've seen the elephant.

When all is said and done, I urge you to use what you're comfortable and effective with, and not take my experience to court. Some people like Country, some like Rap.

I have shot 00 at 10 yds out of a cylinder choked 12 ga, a mossberg mariner, and the pattern was 12". That was enough for me to get rid of that gun and shed the notion of using a shotgun for bear defense.

I will defer to Mr. Shoemaker's many years of experience with big bears, as well as fellow guides that say a bears skull is not impressed by 00.

There is a world a differnce between a big bear and a whitetail or wild pig.

There are now several testimonies from direct experience in this thread that 12 gauge shotguns do not penetrate brown bears well at close range. Those of you who wish to learn by your own experience can continue to use shotguns at your own risk. It seems that people react very strongly to isolated reports of bullet failures on dangerous game if the bullets come out of rifles.

It is not surprising that soft lead projectiles at low velocity may lack penetration. Everything in the history of firearms supports that thesis. I believe the use of 12 gauges and pistols for bear protection are more effective in making the user feel safe than they are at ensuring the user is safe.

When hunting in Alaska, I always use BIG game bullets, not deer bullets, in my rifles.
Paul

Now don't get me wrong here guy's i used a shotgun to kill Brown Bear..
But i used a 10 Ga 3 1/2 mag with hard cast slug's i made from wheel weight's and babit.

And there was nothing soft about thoses bullet's

==========
I have even tried firing a ball baring-The nabor used to call them punken Ball's...Watch out for the bounce when firing a ball baring in your shotgun .

If your going to use a shotgun try buying the brass shotgun shell's and jacketed slug's

The 12 Ga 3 1/2 incher should be good as well as the 10 Ga 3 1/2 incher...

But remmber unless you own that 10 Ga semi auto
shotgun . or a semi auto or pump your only going to have two shot's .
You had better know what the hell your doing before try this....
Or your going to wind up being bear Sh## in the
wood's

quote:

have shot 00 at 10 yds out of a cylinder choked 12 ga, a mossberg mariner, and the pattern was 12".

That doesn't surprise me in the least. Two of the most useless POS's in the known universe are OO Buck and a cylinder bore. I think both exist due to popular but unfounded rumor. That said, a 12" pattern still has a useful application...at about 10 yards apparently.

I never stated or inferred that hogs or deer were comparable to big bear, nor that buckshot was a preferrable load for bear. My reference to hogs was given to illustrate that buckshot does in fact penetrate better than most folks think. Another example is found here a surprising example of what round ball projectiles can do.

The only 12 GA i'D USE ON A BIG BEAR is the 12gA FROM HELL. With a 1000gr solid or 2000gr bore rider at 3000 or 1500fps respectively. It will make a hole through a bear that looks like you shoved a beer can through it from nostrils to butt. That will pretty much stop any bear that ever lived. You can then fire a 12 Ga 3inch mag with 00 buck to start the skinning process.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
The only 12 GA i'D USE ON A BIG BEAR is the 12gA FROM HELL. With a 1000gr solid or 2000gr bore rider at 3000 or 1500fps respectively. It will make a hole through a bear that looks like you shoved a beer can through it from nostrils to butt. That will pretty much stop any bear that ever lived. You can then fire a 12 Ga 3inch mag with 00 buck to start the skinning process.-Rob

After dispatching the bear with the 12 GHF (12 Guage From Hell) should that 00 buck load be fired into the belly to start skinnin'?

Wouldn't that beer can sized hole at the butt end be a good place to start skinning?

Why waste a 00 buck load that could be saved for varmints???

Forget the shotgun and go for a rifle. Buckshot is good for two things, ass and glass! The ass is for shooting a bandit beating feet or blowing out the windows of of a robbery get away car. When it comes to 4 legged animals, always go for the rifle. Even for two legged animals, go for a rifle.

I just ran across this. Looks legit. Down at the bottom are the diagrams of different loads, including #4 buckshot

Wound Ballistics

Just as I suspected, a 30-30 is more effective than a shotgun slug (at ;east on ballistic gelatin).

How many want to use a 30-30 for a stopper on a POed brown bear?

Paul

ppod I have a arictle from outdoor life in the late 60's where a guy in canada shot a huge grizz with is model 94 in 30-30 at full charge.

Killed it dead and dropped it right there. I 30-30 carbine still have more power then most pistols and is a lot eaiser to aim and get hits with.

P dog,

I'm not knocking 30-30s, I just bought a new one last month. I agree with you that they are a lot better option for close work than a pistol. I can actually snap shoot my little Marlin at 25 yards and hit the target! It's just that no one would suggest using a 30-30 for bear protection while simultaneously saying the 270 is "marginal" for deer, elk, moose, whatever. There is an ego thing about carrying something with a big hole in the end of the barrel. I would suggest that unless that hole launches a properly designed projectile at 2000 fps, penetration isn't a sure thing, or even a probable thing.

Paul

Last Season I wacked a good sized black bear at about 25ft. with the .600OK while it was going thru the garbage. Not exactly hunting but HE KNEW what was coming. I shot him a bit back of the lungs just to see what whould happen. Can you spell HYDRAULIC KILL. Total disembowelment! Bear died fast crawled about two feet till it ran outa blood. Now that's stopping power! Think a 12 Ga could do that?-Rob

A bit off topic but I am planning a spring black bear hunt here in Alberta. I have a Ugartechea 12 bore SxS slug gun that I would like to use. It will lay pair after pair of the old Rottweil Brenneke MP's (1 oz at 1300 fps or so) inside 1 1/2" at 50 yards. I have flattened Texas whitetail, blackbuck and feral hogs (up to 200 #) with it out to 60 yards. Penetration to date has been more than I would have expected. Like a "Texas heart shot" on a going away 200# hog at 40 yards that entered right of the tail and was recovered in the cheek. I, as well as the animals, have been left impressed. What do you think regarding Alberta black bear?

a

For some reason my first post got jacked. The performance of the OK was to be expected, that's why it is called the "overkill", right?

Anyhow, I read an article in a hunting mag about a poor soul that got mauled even after delivering 2 416 pills from a Rem mag. Knowing how much horsepower the 416 has over pretty much any shotgun load out there today, I would be inclined to leave the scattergun at home and consider my 375 RUM for starters.

Besides, some of us like trying to turn animals inside out with our weapons, not just using enough gun to get the job done. Case in point Robgunbuilder!

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Last Season I wacked a good sized black bear at about 25ft. with the .600OK while it was going thru the garbage. Not exactly hunting but HE KNEW what was coming. I shot him a bit back of the lungs just to see what whould happen. Can you spell HYDRAULIC KILL. Total disembowelment! Bear died fast crawled about two feet till it ran outa blood. Now that's stopping power! Think a 12 Ga could do that?-Rob

Impressive! Were you using Woodleigh softs?

The guy here in B.C., in the late '60s who whacked a huge Grizzly with a .30-.30 was Jack Turner, son-in-law of the legendary "Crusoe of Lonesome Lake", Ralph Edwards. The bear was about #2 in B&C for awhile and this situation was not all that unusual in B.C. in the old days. I knew Jack's brother-in-law, Stanley, the eldest of Ralph's children; this was at Ocean Falls in '69. I did not know him too well as he was a shy sort of guy, like so many people raised in real wilderness isolation, but, the story is true.

Another huge Grizzly shot with a small gun that I know of was shot in the Lardeau country, in the West Kootenays of B.C. by an oldtimer I also knew slightly as a lad; this bear is mounted in a museum in Oslo, Norway. The Grizzly was 8.5 ft. and was killed with a 6.5 Mannlicher, again, by a seasoned bushman to whom a rifle was simply an everyday tool.

This is why I consider a good load in an .'06 to be perfectly adequate and preferable whenever anyone has problems with recoil. In fact, most of the guys I knew as a boy in the '50s, who shot scores of bears, used .30-06 and .303 British rifles and killed their bears. I feel much safer with an .'06-220 NP that I am familiar with than a .375 that I am not.

If I was going LOOKING for a Bear (any color) I would feel quite confidant with my 1974 vintage Marlin 1895
loaded with a hot handloaded 350grain bullet.

If I was looking for a WOUNDED (or pissed-off) bear then I would indeed look for my Remington 870 pump shotgun

With it's RIFLED barrel and Loaded with the New Winchester Partition sabot slugs (a 385grain partition) at 2000fps) and "Scoped" with an aimpoint 2000 red dot sight, I know I can fire aimed shots with it far faster than I can with my Marlin....

My shotgun is unsuitable for shooting buckshot at any range greater than that which can be measured in
INCHES with only a two digit number....


Anyone here ever fire buckshot from a rifled slug gun just to see what would happen?

AllanD

I found one article testing that Winchester load, and the chrono results were around 1800 fps, for a 50 caliber 385 gr bullet. That puts it slightly more powerful then what a 500 S&W revolver can do. It is also a step down from the power of your 45-70.

I think you both underestimate how big and powerful a big bear is, and overestimate the power of that slug load. It is not even in the same class as a medium bore rifle, let alone a large bore rifle.

I'm continually baffled by the assesment that quick follow up shots from a round that is marginally effective for the task at hand, is better then having enough gun to do the job with one shot, which is all you can expect to get off. If you muffed the first shot, don't expect your shooting ability to magically improve with followup shots.

If, that simple REAL statement could be somehow gotten into the minds of people who have not had the very scary experience of unwanted company from big bears, the world would be a happier place. ONE shot, maybe two if you are very good and very lucky, but, five shots into an attacking bear?????? Maybe Elvis is alive!

Paul, this thought just occured to me(hence the post). You say that if you muff the first shot, you are not going to magically get better in between shots, but if the bear is running at you, the perceived target size would grow exponentially, so maybe you would be more likely to hit the mark the second time around... maybe.

What kind of knife do you guys carry for backup on bears for when your shotgun (or rifle) runs out of ammo?

i'm not a big fan of shotguns on bears but in their defence the COs around here pack them
and they kill more bears (grizzly and blacks) in a year than all the members of this forum combined

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
What kind of knife do you guys carry for backup on bears for when your shotgun (or rifle) runs out of ammo?

The original Bar Huntin was done with a Bowie style coffin handle with a 3 foot willow branch. The method was to smack him on his nose, and when he stood up the Bowie was used to shave his under arms. Sort of a back woods counting coup manhood event. Charlie

I used to carry an 870 with Brenneke slugs as bear protection.

In 1985 I bought a Piper Apache at ANC from the widow of a fellow who killed a brown bear with a shotgun. Problem was the bear was shot 3 times with a slug and the subsequent bear bite to the man's leg caused the man to pass out and eventually bleed to death. The small dead sow was found 30' from the fellow. After that, I always carried a .375 H&H Sako carbine with 300gr RN. Never needed it, but it would have beat the hell out of an 870...IMHO.