Too much mud was getting flung in the other post, so I thought I'd break this issue out on its own. This discussion is only about 12 gauge 00 loads, those firing 12 or 15 36 cal lead round balls, and I'll assume a cylinder choke

Here's a simple test. Get a bear silouette target and set it up at 10 yards. Shoot one load at the head, and see where the pellets land. If you're lucky, one of those balls hit one the eyes, but more likely than not, bot eyes are still in tact. You'll probably find 30-50% of the load didn't even hit the head, some went into the chest, and you may have punched a hole in an ear or two. Perform the same test at 10 yds. Depending on POI, you'll probably take off the nose, but the eyes will be ok.

A single ball of 00 has an approximate muzzle velocity of 1500 fps and a weight of 90 gr. That is 57% the power of a 357 magnum, that can push a 158 gr bullet 1500 fps. I don't think there has ever been much argument about a 357 being a good choice for bear, and certainly changine the 158 gr bullet for a 90 gr one at the same velocity wouldn't be the way to improve it. After I patterened my 00 load in my 12 ga, I realized that best I could hope for was one or two pellets in the right spot, and then I thought about exact how much power one of those pelets has.

I've never shot a bear with a shotgun, though I used to tote one until I shot it at paper, and realized all the hooplay about 12 ga against bear was just that. There have been enough reports of folks actually using 12 ga on bear, and being unipressed with the results. I'd rather learn from others mistakes then try to disprove them.

IMHO, if a bear is close enough to justify my shooting it, I don't want to blind it, wound it, or turn it. I want it to die post haste. A shot gun is a poor choice for that goal.

I give the 12 ga this much, it is cheap, it has a big hole in the barrel, it is cheap, it kicks alot, it is cheap, it makes alot of noise, and it works great on birds.

I'm with you. I've been thinking about a short-barreled (18.5") Rem 7600 in .35 Whelan for traipsin around with my buddys in Wyoming. Kinda like a shotgun. Kinda cheap too.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:

Here's a simple test. Get a bear silouette target and set it up at 10 yards.

I still want to know what happens at more like 10 feet when the whole pattern hits in a tight cluster no bigger than a 3" circle.

This is the scenerio where buckshot is supposed? to be the most deadly. Deadlier than anything else some have said.

Not that I recommend anyone waiting for the 10 foot distance!

I still think a 7600 Remington pump in .400 Whelen along with tough 400 grain bullets would be my choice!

BigRx

I have a Patternmaster choke tube on a Remington 870 pump. I have an 18 1/2" barrel with rifle sights and use it for turkeys. Just for fun, and after reading the ad at Cabelas:

PATTERNMASTER

I shot it with buckshot. I got an 8" group at 25 yards. It was incredible. I'd think you'd wear out a bear's head at 20 yards on in with the set-up I have.

How about leopards?

Same argument, different continent.

If he's coming, and I have six rounds of 00 buck in a good pump or, even better, a good semi-auto, 12 gauge, that's fifty four to seventy two separate projectiles at high enough velocity to find brain and I will flat out take it.

Now, bears are bigger and badder and I just don't think so.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
This discussion is only about 12 gauge 00 loads, those firing 12 or 15 36 cal lead round balls, and I'll assume a cylinder choke

I give the 12 ga this much, it is cheap, it has a big hole in the barrel, it is cheap, it kicks alot, it is cheap, it makes alot of noise, and it works great on birds.

Just one little correction: A 12 ga, 2 3/4" 00 buck shell has "9" pellets, not 12 to 15! uless you are talking about 3" magnums! With them I don't know!

Who is the stupid dork who "wants to wound and blind a 10ft brownie with 12 ga buckshot? I'd like to meet this moron. Does he understand the term "Darwin Award"? Hope he doesn't have any kids!Certainly no future worries! Bad Juju on this turkey,-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Just one little correction: A 12 ga, 2 3/4" 00 buck shell has "9" pellets, not 12 to 15! uless you are talking about 3" magnums! With them I don't know!

Sellier & Bellot 12 ga. 2 3/4 has 12 pellets of 00 buckshot. I don't know the S&B P/N but the barcode on the box of 25 rounds is 780166012214. If you want I can send you a shell if you'd like to countem ;-)

I know a (fishing) guide here locally that claims he killed 2 grizzlies in Alaska "at very close range" with a 12 ga. pump and buckshot when he was guiding up there and feels it WILL do the job. He said it's pretty much the standard for protection against snooty bears that are threating guides or thier customers.

Roi

Yes 3" have 15 pellets but several sources of 2 3/4"(winchester too) have 12 pellets in magnum loadings.Whoops 510 got in first with that point.

One correction is calibre which I thought was .33 not .36.

My opinion as to the deadliness of buckshot even at point blank range on big game is it can only be as good and never better than the same weight solid slug, since that is what you are expecting it to perform as in that case.


Karl.

Buckshot (slugs too) is not IDEAL bear medicine, that is not to say it will not kill a bear, it will. It will not make up for poor shooting skills. You are far better off with a cartridge that will pound the bear the first go-around.

On that fishing guide that killed two bears with buckshot or whatever, maybe he did, but I call BS. It is rare during salmon season to have to kill a bear much less two-not impossible, just not probable-they are fat & happy. That said a shotgun while fishing (along with pepper spray) is reasonable protection/deterent.

Bottom line folks each situation requires a different level of protection. Know your situation and then get and use the amount of force required-or just take the upper level protection (.375 H&H & up) and be done with it.

mrlexma, How can you even compare a bear to a putty-tat (leopard) thin skin/bones light body weight = you dont need much of a gun to kill them even when jacked up. I wouldn't want to gut shoot one and have to trail him in the grass though-lots of attitude and sharp claws.

BigRx, what happens if you dont brain-box-em at 10 feet, I'll tell you what happens-your dead.

JudgeG, If your shooting a a wounded bear at 25yds you might turn him or maybe kill him, but odds are you won't and if you don't you are not going to wear him out by taking chuncks out of his face-they don't give up the ghost easily.

I guess use what your confident in-I do and it is not a shotgun-Ron

I have shot one bear with OO buck A 300 lb blk at apox 15 yards. Standard 9 pellet load knocked her right down I gave her a 2nd one right away don't know if it was needed. This was a side shot to the front shoulder/lung area. Iam sure all 9 hit her.

I have shot thousand of round of OO buck in testing and training It has its place. I would take a shotgun with Buck over a knife, ax or sharp stick any day. Other then that I would take a nice handy rifle of some decent cailber with good bullet over a shotgun any time I had the chance for bear protection.

Grizzly1:

The only way you are going to be sure to stop a bear that is charging is to make a CNS hit. Even something like a .458 in the chest may well give a bear 10 to 30 seconds to continue to slap your head off or put in some nasty bites.

I used to spend summers flying tail draggers and float planes around Alaska and had plenty of encounters with both black and grizzly bears in the 70's. I've killed 15 or so blacks and one brownie, only two of which were with firearms (the brown and the first black).. the rest with a recurve or longbow. I've had a black bear litteraly die on my feet.

All that said, I don't think that a shotgun with buckshot is the best weapon for keeping bears off of ones body, but with the Patternmaster, it does become a different animal. I'm not even sure that buckshot would reliably penetrate a brown bears skull at 25 yards... but at 10 yards.. 15 pellets in a wad the size of a coffee cup should work...

At the Dallas Safari Club, I really enjoyed handling the .50 Alaskans based on the Marlin. I'd love to have one with a ghost ring system. Even as great as they come to the shoulder, having been the point of interest of a bears charge, a Claymore mine would be my weapon of choice.

I think a shotty with buck might be able to be used as a defense weapon, at fly swatting range. My preference would be slugs, however. Once you are over a very few yards, rifles become my choice, no pistolas, yes they can work, not my choice.

Once you go to offensive weapons, rifles all the way.

If you have found your way to Alaska, the shotty becomes a signalling device in a hurry. It would still work at fly swatting range, but would not be the first choice if hunting.

JMHO.

Shotgun slugs are known for crappy penetration (low sectional density, soft material), and buckshot is even worse.

However, since the world is overpopulated....

The equation for your average forest worker:
ax or shovel < pepper spray << shotgun with slugs

I don't recommend the use of buckshot to my guys. We generally stick to slugs. Some of them still insist on mixing 'em up.

We practice regularly.

The shotgun is to be used as a "last line of defense". Warning shots OK past 20 feet, but no shooting at the bear until it is within 20 feet (which realistically is also the effective range of pepperspray - if you want to use the term effective and pepperspray in the same breath! - I'm sure anyone thats used the stuff will concur).

All that aside, however, in a hunting sit'n, or when backpacking/fishing and taking a rifle is feasible, I'll take a rifle of 270 cal or greater ANY AND EVERY TIME over a shotgun with slugs or buckshot.

Cheers,
Canuck

Hard buckshot at 5 feet will kill any soft skinned animal, but I don't want him that close to me, they have putrid breath that close......

Rather have a 416 Rem and kill him at 25 to 35 yards out...Same with Lions...

If I carry a shottygun for bears, it would be loaded w/ sabot slugs. Buckshot has trouble dropping a deer, I wouldn't want to bet my life on it for a 600#+ bear. If you are going to carry a long gun for bear protection, a carbin length .308 w/ good 180gr bullets or a Marlin in .45-70 would be a better choice IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I have shot one bear with OO buck A 300lb blk at apox 15 yards. Standard 9 pellet load knocked her right down I gave her a 2nd one right away don't know if it was needed. This was a side shot to the front shoulder/lung area. Iam sure all 9 hit her.

I think we are talking about two different animals! A big Coastal Brown Bear can eat almost 300 lbs of meat at a setting! Your shot might have done the same thing to the Brownie, but I doubt it! Anyway, what started all this is whether it is advisable to follow a wounded BROWN BEAR into the willows with a shotgun,not just self defense. Any firearm is far better than a prayer, or spray! You use what you have in an emergancy, but following a WOUNDED BROWN into the tight places they like when wounded, and purposely choose a shotgun with buck shot, is, IMO, foolish, at best!

I don't want the job with anything, but if needed, I will not be armed with a shotgun no matter the ammo in it!

Chris,

I hope you realize my post wasn't directed at you. Shotguns have their place, I just think people need to realize the limitations of shotguns before toting one. They are not nearly as effective as their ardent fans claim, nor are they utterly useless as their harshest critics claim.

One last comment. Every once in awhile there is mention made of the natives that kill bears with 22 rf magnums and 223's, and those stories are true. I also have a native friend from Kodiak Island (home of the big bears) and he said they carry a 458 win mag for bear protection.

Hey Paul,

I knew it wasn't directed at me bud. Just thought I'd take another crack at explaining what I feel is a shotgun's proper place within the general sphere of bear defense. And state that I don't like buckshot much, even when the shotgun is a reasonable choice.

I also wanted to make it clear that IMHO, a 270 Win (with decent bullets of course) is a better choice in most applications. That doesn't say a lot for the shotgun to me. And an '06 with 200 or 220 grain bullets is head and shoulders above a shotgun for sorting out a wounded bear. It only gets better if you go bigger from there.

Cheers,
Canuck

My wife is does field work in Alaska during the summer and about ten years ago another archaeologist she knows had to shoot a coastal brown bear that was raiding the camp. This was dispatched with a 375 H&H. (They were working in an area with alot of bears). With a dead bear on the ground this group of scientists was overcome with curiosity as to just what the other weapons they had brought along would do. I believe they had 12 gauge buckshot and slugs along with at least one big pistol. The conclusion-there is nothing like a 375! The other weapons only produced superficial wounds.

Real brown bear attacks are very fast at close range and you might get one well placed shot. My wife keeps a Rem pump 35 Whelen for camp protection. So, what do you want for your one shot???
Paul

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

I also wanted to make it clear that IMHO, a 270 Win (with decent bullets of course) is a better choice in most applications.
Canuck

Man, I didn't know buckshot was that bad!

I didnt see what kind of Bear you are applying this load to. Buck is good for thin skinned game but i think you best bet its slugs. Buck has the energy but not the penetration need to get to the vitals and shut the animal down.I dont think any one of us wants a wounded animal lost or worst case be the next meal for Mr.Bruin.There are few shoulder fired weapons that have the effect on animals like a 12 ga. with sulgs at close range.

I'm sorry, but a shotgun (buckshot, slugs) is Not a good choice for wounded big brown bear much less not wounded. I know of no guides (hunting) that carry one for trial-up duty on bear, a rifle in a suitable caliber is more effective. I really don't think you people understand how difficult it can be to put these bears down after their dander is up.

Canuck, you are on the mark concerning this topic.

-Ron

What kind of slugs to people recommend for bears? I've tried most of them on deer and haven't been satisfied with any of them. I don't understand why a .70 caliber projectile has to expand.

Mikelravy,

For slugs on wounded bruins read above post, for general protection/deterent while hiking or fishing, 1st shot is bird (7 1/2) then stack Winchester Partition Gold's-they are the best I've found- I use them on deer in Mn to great effect.

-Ron

I agree with the statement about not being impressed with slugs on deer. My experience is that a 243 drops a deer much better than either conventional slugs or sabot slugs. A soft piece of lead at 1200fps is not the answer I'm looking for when facing a wet fur, muscle and fat encrusted 700lb food processer that can break a moose's neck with one swipe of a paw. If 12 gauge shotguns were great bear guns, grizzly hunters might actually use them.
Paul

I know one guide (Gary Paul) who did use a 12 ga with 00 buck on a charging brown bear at close range. he said it peeled the hide off the face but DIDN'T KILL THE BEAR !!!!! He went to a Marlin M-95 45-70 using the heaviest, fastest bullets he could after that.
I have shot charging Brown Bears at distances of under 5 yards with 30-06's, . 416 Rem's, .458 Win's and the .505 Gibbs and seen them shot at those distances with .338's and .375's
From my experiences and those of other experienced guides bigger is better but where you hit them is more important. I don't care to bet my life on a shotgun with a 1000# animal.

The shotgun is at its best on quail, phesant and even a charging turkey..

Atkinson you do make me laugh, i never have had a Turkey charge me , but they do seem to have all the equipment to make it a bit sticky if that happens. 18 to 20 lbs. of enraged - blood in their beedy eyes - Turkey makes the hair stand up the back of my neck and sends shivers of anticipation to my thumb that snicks off the saftey. I only wish that the lowley Ground Hog weighed about 100 lbs. That would be fun and i would consider him " Dangerous Game" . The 12 ga. with #1 buck, not 00 buck may be the difference between you coming home standing up or laying down when thin skinned dangerous game are hunted and found.They actulay find you most of the time i might add. Hope this helps you out. Charlie

There is such a thing as hardened buckshot but only for reloading I guess?
In an article I read the other day a Grizzly was dropped then got up with two bbls worth of 00 buck they penetrated to the stomach at close range but hit no vital organs. How he do that? It took a finisher from a .375 H&H mag. to close the deal.
As for slugs sure why not but... a sabot type hard cast or the like.. a tuff style. Forget the Forster old style the only one of those I ever new that was near up to the task was the old CIL Imperial 12 ga slug with the nylon core. But I would never have tried that on a bear except in desperation!
In the end I have to say Phil (458) gets my vote RIFLE in as big a calibre as you can accurately handle.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The shotgun is at its best on quail, phesant and even a charging turkey..

They are also the perfect arm when one is under rabbit attack!

One day while "on point" during a "backpacking trip" in the woods of Ken-tuh-tay (Indian name referring to "plenty of food") I startled a wild turkey. After seeing nothing but a raging ball of black feathers, I found myself like a turtle high-centered on my pack. My buddy, having grown up in the Bernheim Forest (Bardstown, Bourbon County, home of Jim Boehm, pronounced "Beam" ) was on the ground to. Laughing his @$$ off ....

He never thought he would see the day that 6'7" and 240 lbs of "trained professional" would be felled by something black and fuzzy going "gobble gobble gobble" .... I never lived that one down ....

No experience with bears, but after that encounter with the turkey, I'll stick with East Tx feral hogs, I hear they are less vicious

Several customers have reported taking brownies and black with 300 gr, .458 diameter, traveling around 2000 fps. I assume they were the smaller specimen.

I will have to take my Rem 870 HD with ghost rings to the range and see what type of pattern I get, been too long since I shot it ... I will post pics if anyone is interested, 18" cylinder choke.

My Favorite store on the planet is Mcmaster Carr. The big yellow catalog is usually refered to as the "Book of All".. Talking about how soft the buckshot was, got me wondering... Mcmaster sells balls...
Balls o' Plenty
---------------------------

Acrylic Balls
Aluminum Balls
Aluminum Bearing Balls
Brass Balls
Bronze Balls
Bronze Bearing Balls
Ceramic Balls
Ceramic Bearing Balls
Copper Balls
Cotton Balls
Delrin Balls
EPDM Rubber Balls
Extruded Acrylic Balls
Float Balls (5 pages)
Foam Balls
Glass Balls
Glass Bearing Balls
Glass Micro Balls
Gum Rubber Balls
High-Density Polyethylene (HDPE) Balls
Hitch Balls
Indexing Balls
Lead Balls
Locating Balls
Low-Density Polyethylene (LDPE) Balls
Magnetic Balls
Neoprene Rubber Balls
Nylon 6/6 Balls
Nylon Balls
Phenolic Balls
Plastic Bearing Balls
Polyamide-Imide (Torlon) Balls
Polycarbonate Balls
Polypropylene Balls
Polystyrene Balls
Polyurethane Balls
PTFE Balls
Rubber Balls
Silicone Rubber Balls
Stainless Steel Balls
Stainless Steel Bearing Balls
Steel Balls
Steel Bearing Balls
Titanium Balls
Tooling Components (Balls)
Torlon Balls
Trailer Balls
Tungsten Carbide Balls
Ultra High Molecular Weight (UHMW) Polyethylene Balls
Viton Rubber Balls
Wood Balls

-------------------------

Anyone want to load up some Tungsten Carbide Buckshot and let us know about penetration???
Only $5 a "ball"

I am not going to say one way or the other anything about using buck shot to kill a 1200Lb
Brown Bear ,,, ..But! can i have your car's if you don't come back...

I am going to have a parking lot full of Car's

quote:

Brass Balls

Therein lies the problem of effective vs. ineffective use of buckshot. Most people do not have them, and thus begin shooting at too great of a distance. If you are thus inclined, don't carry a shotgun and buckshot.

Speculation such as the first post is misplaced in representation. At 10' the entry wound from a load of Buck(any size) will be about 1.5" in diameter, and there is no skull in North America that will stop or deflect it. It is my observation that few people actually use buckshot for hunting, and fewer understand its lethality or limitations.

Buckshot is not properly evaluated by looking at FPE for a single pellet, nor does one draw valid conclusions about terminal performance by multiplying such figures by the number of pellet strikes on target. In my experience it is perhaps better to increase the lethality index in geometric fashion. Within effective range buckshot is a killer, but that range is limited to probably less than 30 yards, that being the maximum range that will ensure a high percentage of shot hits a vital zone. I like something in the 75% range, and find the range varies by the size of the quarry, and how my gun shoots. As an example I have a 20 Ga pump that I will use at greater distance than one of my 12's IF THAT 12 IS LOADED WITH OO BUCK. In any case, closer is better. I have a few loads of OO left, anybody want them?

My experience with Buck indicates that even smaller sizes of shot penetrate a great deal more than most expect. #3 Buck will penetrate hogs thru and thru on broadside chest shots if it does not strike heavy bone such as spine or shoulder structure, this demonstrated on hogs of 250# to my satisfaction. For that matter, as indicated in one of the earlier posts on this thread, smaller shot is usually more effective than O or OO shot as it patterns better. I know there are others out there that have actually patterned different loads with different guns and chokes, but so far I am the only person I know that has actually done this. I know one other person that habitually hunts with Buckshot and though he never did this either, he "learnt from my Daddy", and knows how far #1 Buck will work from his Winchester SS 16 Ga. He is fond of the one-shot-boom-flop theory, and would chuckle at those who deride Buck as a viable load for big game at close range.

All of that said, there is another aspect of the discussion that I find specious at best. Most people hunting in Griz or Brownie country are there to hunt other things, and expect to shoot at longer ranges. The thought of using a shotgun for bear defense is abstact at best, who is going to pack two guns on such an expedition with one designated for "bear defense"? Not me, not you, and not your guide. He may consider many needs for a backup arm, and he will pick one that will allow him to do just that at practical ranges. You or I would pick a rifle with similar considerations in mind. OTOH, if I accept the precept of the discussion and am required to defend myself at 10 feet against a Brownie with a snapshot, I'll be as content with a shotgun and buck as I would with anything else. As always, it's not what you hit them with, it's WHERE.

I wrote a lengthy response but then thought "what does it matter"?
So I deleted all but the last paragraph.



I would rather be armed with a pointy stick than nothing at all. (that or a slow hunting companion)

IF the bear was close enough, 00 buchshot would kill it. But at the ranges I'm talking about, so would a load of birdshot! I've seen too many abject failures of this stuff to kill small deer to trust it on a critter that can claw and bite you! Slugs, maybe - buckshot never!!

What strikes me as ironic is that this discussion, and the whole emotional wild range of opinions it tends to stir up, is an amazing parallel to the ever-present discussion about whether 5.56x45 NATO is a viable combat cartridge. All sorts of anecdotal evidence (one involving a purported 7 hits with Mk262 77 gr on an Iraqi who continued to fight and killed two Marines, to be finally dispatched with a shot from a .45 ACP), a wide range of tests against ballistic gelatin, and when the dust settles and the smoke clears, one overriding opinion remains

SHOT PLACEMENT is KEY

But it is interesting to read it on both sides of the spectrum, combat arms in Iraq and the 223 versus bear country and the 12 gauge.

quote:

Originally posted by DigitalDan:

quote:

Brass Balls

My experience indicates.......

At 10' the entry wound from a load of Buck(any size) will be about 1.5" in diameter, and there is no skull in North America that will stop or deflect it. It is my observation that few peopleactually use buckshot for hunting, and fewer understand its lethality or limitations.

Buckshot is not properly evaluated by looking at FPE for a single pellet, nor does one draw valid conclusions about terminal performance by multiplying such figures by the number of pellet strikes on target. In my experience it is perhaps better to increase the lethality index in geometric fashion.

Yes it seems experience trumps speculation everytime!

I read years ago that multiple hits at the same instant actually was the square of the shock induced to the animal..... Geometric as mentioned above.... That's 144 times for a 12 pellet hit! The same author said a tight cluster of buck (1 1/2"?) hit like a solid projectile of like diameter. An nobody would argue with a 1 1/2" diameter bullet!
I tend to agree with Digital Dan. I have not seen a Brownie take a 2" diameter clump of properly placed buckshot but I have seen 200 lbs take it... And the force is something to reckon with...


BigRx