Over the weekend a friend shot his Weatherby 416 with A-Square RN solids at a 3/4" steel plate. He almost got penetration with the 416, hole in other side but it did not go thru. He did however get penetration with a 30/378 Weatherby loaded with Barnes X bullets. Loads were Weatherby factory from a few years ago.

This just seems curious to us, I guess it is just the velocity of the 30/378 that allows it to punch thru the plate or?? is it just a fluke.

Distance was about 25 yards, not sure on type of steel.

I was not with him but will have to repeat this test with different solids I have for 416, 423, 458 when I get to his place next time.

BigB

Please for your safety stop doing this. Do a search on "Shooting steel" and read. 25 yards is way too close. RandyB.

BigB

I think for sure a function of Velocity for steel. On 3/8s inch cold rolled a 223 Nosler ballistic tip will burn right thru--and that is a varmint bullet.

Steel is a completely different animal than a fluid based medium (animal-gel-wet print). I had some 1" harden steel and nothing I had would penetrate that, Barnes Solids in 458 Lott-470 Capstick-510 Wells all at 2250-2300 fps leave nothing but splatter on it, just a slight dimple! I was amazed at that. 3/8s to 1/2 cold roll these will burn right thru, but that hardened steel.......

Michael

Oh my yes-somehow I overlooked the 25 yds-that is far too close with rifles!!!!! Back up to at least 50 yds or better.

With handguns a little different story-I've shot steel as close as 5 yds with 45 acps and such. In fact I once had some thin plates-1/4 inch-started to get a lot of dimples in them. 9 mm FMJ at 5 yds was way too close, one got in the dimple, did not splatter, came straight back and went in my belly! Burned right thru the T-shirt and stuck just above the belly button. Burning like hell, reached in and picked the full bullet out of my belly fat, still hot, burned fingers, dropped it on the ground! Ran in the house and got bandaged up! Heh-what a hoot! Don't try this at home kids--Only for "Professionals" LOL!

Always wear glasses too!

Michael

I sense the ghostly presence of Darwin, just waiting to do his stuff.....

I will be sure to tell the guys to move it back to 50 or even 100 yards for the next time shooting at steel.

I was not with them but I guess it does seem to be a little close.

I guess velocity and steel makes for penetration if a 223 will make it thru 3/8 plate.

Thanks

BigB

I quit shooting the 3/4" mild steel plates at 100 yards after
I had some bullet jacket material come whining back over the top of my head in 2001.

I was testing a .416 Rigby for penetration on steel, with 400-grainers at 2500 fps MV, steel plate at 100 yards.

The only one I had penetration with was the Speer AGS tungsten core,
the core penetrated the brass FN of the bullet nose and penciled on through the steel,
making a tiny hole the size of the tungsten core diameter.

It was the brass jacket separating from the tungsten that bounced back 100 yards to whistle by over the top of my head.


Yes, it is velocity and the heat generated on impact that melts and penetrates that steel.
Even better than lo-caliber-lo-SD-hi-velocity is hi-caliber-hi-SD-hi-velocity.

SLAP some HEAT on that steel to gitterdun.

Other bullets that seem to punch through steel out of proportion to their make-up are the really big pure lead black powder conicals. We were at hogkiller's one summer shooting railroad rail base plates with all sorts of big bores and the only one that punched through was Jeffeosso's 58 caliber Kodiac double rifle. Not 375s, not 416s or 458s, just the 58 cal. Can someone explain that?

Bullet shape, composition and KE all determine penetration in Hard medium. RN bullets usually fail to penetrate steel while spitzer shapes and cones sail right through. Any bullets with TC which is much harder than steel penetrate incredibly well-Rob

A few years back my ex bother in law wanted to see what my 458 Win mag would do. He had been using large round hay bales with a big piece of boiler plate, probably 5/8" set behind at an angle as a bullet trap. We moved around for a clear shot at the boiler plate and at about 20 - 25 yards put a 400gr Barnes hollow point through the boiler plate. The bullet engraved the rifleing pattern of the gun into the hole in the boiler plate as it went through, leaving a light copper wash inside the hole.

The old stlye mild steel or was it nickel jaceted soft points from Norma did a great job too. I consistantly punched holes in 3/8 inch plate at 100yds with 160gr 6.5x55 Swede. It sucks that Norma no longer uses that material for their jackets. Gilding metal sucks!

Andy B

I have an old book somewhere where a test was done showing how 30-06 ball ammo essentially bounced off an armor plate which I suppose was a hardened plate. A 220 swift 48 gr soft blew right through A big difference on results with this medium.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by eezridr:
I have an old book somewhere where a test was done showing how 30-06 ball ammo essentially bounced off an armor plate which I suppose was a hardened plate. A 220 swift 48 gr soft blew right through A big difference on results with this medium.
I have personally shot quite a few Nosler 95 gr partitions @ 3100 FPS clean through 3" oil field drill stem pipe. Probably mild steel but they always go cleanly through.

Shooting steel is on of my favorite things to shoot.
I think the bullet composition, shape and velocity are the main rolls in steel penetration along with how hard the steel is.
My fist high power rifle, a 270 win, would punch through 5/8 construction steel at 50 yards like a hot knife with butter.
I tryed it with a 338 win with 2 bullets.
The barnes tsx cut right through with no shrap metal. the nosler accubond cut right through but with some metal comming back(I think because of the plastic tip.)

Here's another little tip that makes shooting steel more safe. angle the steel slightly off to one side so if there is a ricochet it will have a tenancy to bounce off to the side instead of directly at you. even better if you can angle it at a slightly downward angle to direct a ricochet at the ground. and wear safety glass too for this type of shooting.

Tiggertate, all I can think of is that maybe it was very soft steel and the 58 were hard cast? and the elephant rifles were using soft softs.

To the poster, there are a lot of variables to shooting steel and dissappointingly changing a few of them can completely reverse results.

Without employing a weapons engineer my experience has been if the steel is soft, its more like penetrating other media- KE or momentum per surface area and you can sort of expect certain comparisons.

As you increase the hardness, and I am no mettalurgist(as you will realise by the very next comment) extra laws of weirdness occur.Bullet material needs to be harder(as in steel or tungsten cores) to have much effect.Some shattering(or other) effect from ultra velocity can also provide penetration. And one final affect is from any big projectile, so big in comparison to the thickness of the target, it 'stretches' or simply bulges its way through.

For example most of the obsolote anti tank rifles ran at about 60,000- 90,000 Ftlbs per sq in for between 15mm to 40mm hardened plate penetration at attack ranges. (KE divided the cross sectional area)The 50BMG for example is around 65,000 ftlbs/sq in.

That said the very slow 20mm oerlikon I think anti tank rifle(the first short case version, not the much faster later one) had a heavy projectile and only 1800fps or so for a fairly low 17,000ftlbs energy(for a 20mm anyway) and you can work it out but the KE/"in was very low for such a big fat calibre.But it still got its 25mm hardended plate penetration just by being so damn huge compared to a 25mm plate.

In this way Ed or Robs 70/12 ga monsters with 1500-2000gns bullets at similar velocities I think will be knocking at the same door.

So the best way to hedge bets or rather prevent comparison headaches and quandaries is to go as fast,big and hard as you can if you want to blast steel, and forget what anything else does.

I solved my own headache by using as mentioned the speer AGS tungsten- which seemed to be about the best of the above for playing with steel.

I don't think that the base plates are particularly soft but they aren't as hard as the rails. And I'm pretty sure the conicals were pure lead. What was interesting to me was that all of the high velocity big bores just splattered on the plate while the big slow lead bullet punched right through at about 1300 fps.

While we're at it, I did the 30-06/220 Swift test from Ackley's book myself with surplus AP and my Swift on chunks of railroad track (not in service!). The AP never made it all the way through the rail road iron web although some of the hardened penetrators stuck into it. Most deflected. The Swift burned right through the same pice of iron every time. After that I had "Speed Kills" engraved on the barrel of that old Savage for kicks. Wish I still had it.

i thought i posted on this..
Harry's right..like 600gr .583 DEADSOFT lead conicals .. 1300fps muzzle.. and just plowed right through...

same bullet, btw, wouldn't go 6inches into wet sand, 2 feet off the muzzle

On steel plates penetration is a function of:

1) energy per unit surface area of the impact or energy per unit of length along the line sheared by the bullet (Is actually some combination of both.)
2) how securely the plate is being held in position during impact, and
3) tendency of the projectile to deform

The energy per unit surface area takes into account the angle of the projectiles impact and the diameter of the bullet involved. The amount of material that has to be displaced in the target to achieve penetration is pi*(d/2)^2*t. pi and t (thickness) remain constant as bullet diameter increases ... but half the diameter is squared and multiplied by pi.

If one takes the energy required for penetration to be related to the shear that has to be applied rather than the amount of material that has to be displaced then penetration is related to pi*d*t ... and diameter is still multiplied by pi.

If the plate moves it dissipates energy that might improve penetration.

Energy lost to bullet deformation (or fragmentation) can't be applied to penetration.

The high velocity cartridges like the swift are applying all their energy in a very small unit area. The high velocity of the impact also is faster than the plate can move or vibrate and thus all the energy goes into vaporization and penetration, There also may be some plasma torch effect going on as the bullets vaporize on impact and the shock/plasma wave propagates through the steel. I never recovered any recognizable pieces of a .220 swift or .17 Rem bullet that penetrated steel and the holes look more torched than cleanly pierced. I've shot steel with TC penetrators and it looks pierced not at all like a high velocity bullet hole.If you shoot at night or in dim light there is a hell of a flash on impact. If the temp of the vaporized metal is greater than the melting point of the steel you will get a plasma torch effect and once started propagates through the steel. I believe some or all of this is occuring and what we are seeing with high velocity bullets is a form of shaped charge effect.Interestingly, I've shot 2 and 3" thick pieces of steel with these bullets and the effect dampens out at some point and you can see a crater like effect at the bottom of the hole. Penetration of high velocity bullets is undoubtably a complex formula involving the plate material, thickness, bullet diameter, bullet material, bullet shape, impact velocity etc.-Rob

I get that part about high velocity and small cross section. What I don't yet understand is the low velocity/large cross section version with the BP bullet. Maybe if I could read what Mike wrote with some comprehension I'd get it....

FWIW, the plate was hanging from a limb and free-swinging.

Tiggertate- Maybe Jeffe used TC penetrators. hes a tricky sort you know! Lead bullets no matter how hard will either deform, fragment or vaporize on steel and god knows I've shot enough siholete targets with my 45-110 sharps to know they dont go through. Possibly the steel was weakened or fractured in that spot from the other superior impacts and the squashed lead bullet finished the job. Penetrating a free swinging piece of steel will be a tough job for any low velocity cartridge IMHO. -Rob

no tricks, man!
<shesh, rob.. you don't have to tell everything you know>

just great big ole chunks of lead, at moderate vels ... I think it hit like a deadfall hammer!

no tricks.. first hit, blowing a big hole through it.. and each shot from there out!

Rob, it could be that he used some sort of Arkansas tele-kenesis mind trick. He's been using them on revenuers for ever.

Once I witnessed some guides shooting to a steel plate at 50 meters. They shoot military FMJ in 3006 and 308, both 150 grainers. The plate was only dented. Then came an old hand with his Steyr 1912 in the "obsolete" 7x57 and 40 year old ammo, 139 grain FMJ . He made a hole with each shot. I wonder how would it been with the original military 173 grainers.
By the way , I have some 7x57 , 173 g. round nose FMJ marked 1898 , H&K. ,perhaps the same kind used by Bell and others in bygone days.
Pulki.

That Jeffe- He Be Tricky alright. Probably used a shaped charge in the .58 punkin roller.-Rob

I get real nervous shooting hard stuff ... My recomendation is Qiut while you still have a head ...

I think Rob gives the best practical picture of what happens when steel is shot with a rifle bullet, and he seems to have a lot of experience. On the other hand, I don't doubt Jeff's observation either.

It seems to me that the problem is twofold, when it comes to understanding an apparent contradiction in physics, or any other branch of science. 1)First, we tend to be arrogant, thinking we know all there is to know based on observation of phenomena, and current science; and 2)We know little about ultimate energy and how one substance (material)with its molecular structure interacts with the molecular structure of another substance at infinite-variable velocities.

Some things that scientists have been very slow to admit: Ultimate energy has nothing to do with velocity or material, or their molecular structure. There is enough energy in a square-centimetre of "empty" space (a vacuum)to create another universe. The Universe is accelerating exponentially in expansion, which "shocked" even Hawkins (and every other cosmologist and astronomer)who theorized it would be slowing after the, so-called, "Big Bang". (BTW, the Scriptures state: "...the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and it's works will be burned up." Even Hawkins was a prophet (God forbid!)and didn't know it , apparently, for he said :"Humanitie's future is in outer space".

I've witnessed (along with a few other thousands)a steel ring, about 9 - 10 inches in diameter and a couple inches thick, "float" in mid-air without any material assistance. It could be moved up or down at will, or even "suspended" without touching any other object or having any inherent means of energy or propulsion. Of course, an electro-magnetic field was created which could not be seen, felt or observed by human senses. Yet it manipulated the steel ring at will. But a fibre ring of the same size was unimpressed in the least by this electronically-induced field.

We know that in the molecular structure, or more precisely, the atomic structure of anything there is "empty space". If we could magnify a piece of "hardened" steel enough, we could actually "see" through it.

The resistance of steel (which is an alloy of iron plus a small percentage of carbon, and possibly other elements as well)to a fast moving, or slow moving, projectile will act as predetermined by observation (empirical evidence)most of the time. But there is still an element of "mystery" when it concerns atoms in collision, and especially when energy, with no atomic structure, is colliding with molecular structures.

All of that to say: There's no room for arrogance here as even Hawkins has not unravelled the mystery of the Universe, and the more he knows the less he knows, and he's about ready to leave this Universe!

Maybe, just maybe, there's Someone out there who holds in His hands ultimate energy... or who is Ultimate Energy!

In the meantime we should take heed to RandyB's advise.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

This has been posted here before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn0MFqP1js0

Physicists and engineers can explain and predict the results by modeling the impact with various hydrocodes. Here's a good example:

"Bullet Impact on Steel and Kevlar Steel Armor Experimental Data and Hydrocode Modeling with Eulerian and Lagrangian Methods"

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/88...d-Lagrangian-Methods

Why did the big slow pig make it through?
In layman's terms: energy dump

Assume I give you a 5' tall steel plate to hold up. Don't let it fall.
If I heave a 10 lb bowling ball into the plate it's going to bounce off. It bounces you too, but you're able to keep holding the plate.
Now, skip the bwoling ball let me toss 10 lbs of modeling clay at the same speed. It will likely knock you down. We all laugh and have a beer. You make plans to return the favor with far more creative use of bowling balls and modleing clay.

The clay and ball had the same energy but the clay will apply the energy longer because it won't bounce.

Try it at home with a wet sponge from your kitchen and an orange. The spouse will be more than happy to throw things at you.

The jacketed bullets are moving really fast when they hit the steel. That causes the bullet to fragment, essentially explode. The energy is dissipated through fragmentation and rebound of the smaller chunkies of bullet as they bounce off the steel like a herd of tiny little bullets.

Those big fat lead punkins you're tossing with the muzzle loader aren't moving fast enough to disentegrate like the jacketed bullets. They're also nice and squishy in comparison. When they hit the steel instead of fragmenting they keep right on squishing and push on the plate for a longer period of time. In essence, they push their way through.

Really super high speed bullets will burn through. Literally. They move so fast and impart their force on such a tiny area that they melt their way through.

Look at anti-armor tank rounds. They're not explosive. They're small diameter rods of super-heavy depleted uranium moving at impressive velocity. They burn their way through the armor. That sprays jets of plasma and other nastiness that bounce around inside the enemy tank and give the crew a bad day.

I was shooting at 600yds first time and the target there was made of 3/8" steel around the paper stapeled target. I was shooting 180gr bullets with my 300 ultra mag and a couple went a little high and hit the steel frame and went right threw the frame at 600yds.

quote:

Look at anti-armor tank rounds. They're not explosive.

Many anti-tank rounds use a shaped charge to burn a hole though armor with a plasma of molten copper.

Your anti tank rounds are probably shoulder fired.

The rounds from a 120 mm smooth bore are a wee bit different that those that carry their own propulsion system.

Here's a picture for those unfamiliar with them:



Perhaps I should have made myself clear.

KNow where I can get some of those shaped charges in .30 caliber?

/

Perhaps I'm wrong about the jet cutting but I didn't go into HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank) rounds.
I was talking about kinetic penetrators in my first post. I simply described it the way it was described to me.
The fact remains that a penetrator round passes through the armor by virtue of mass x velocity and the area of contact.

ALF,
Thanks for clarifying the story.
Rob got us onto the right track with Kinetic energy, form, and materials factors.

Those kinetic energy penetrators do spew molten metal around inside the tank, and do produce enough heat at the impact site to give the mechanically penetrated holes a melted look, eh?

I never studied this, until I read your post.

/

A .30/338 wow! That is a Weatherby 338 necked down to .30 caliber. It sports a 26 inch barrel, develops a recoil like a mule kick, and the excess powder ignites in a flash like a weather balloon at the muzzle. Who in HELL would ever want or need one?