Please allow me to start by stating what this question is NOT about:

-I'm not asking if the 45-70 is a good DG cartidge.
-I'm not asking if the 45-70 can stop a Cape Buffalo charge.
-I'm not asking if it's legal to use a 45-70 in Africa for DG.
-I'm not asking if the 45-70 is used by classy, cultured men.
-I don't want any free Africa safaris to test any theories.

What I am asking is opinions about the following:

Ray and maybe some others have stated that the 9.3x62 (a great round) is a "better killer" than any 45-70. I am sure that this is based upon lots of hunting, and has some merit. But, as we all know, not all ammunition is created equally. You must speak in specifics to get at any real comparison.

Consider the following factory loaded round:

http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/Detail.bok?no=56
http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/Detail.bok?no=56

This is a 405gr bronze solid (actually has a small lead core in the back to add weight) produced by Belt Mountain (.276 SD). It is called the Punch Bullet. Grizzly Cartridge Company loads this round to an advertised 2050fps. It has a large, flat meplat.

I know that a 286 gr solid at 2400fps out of a 9.3 should out-penetrate the Grizzly CC offering due to SD (.305 SD) and velocity advantages.

But, you give up a lot of frontal area to gain that penetration.

If you use a stout soft in the 9.3 (say a Barnes X) in order to buy back the frontal area, you have a better comparison.

In this senario, the 9.3 quickly loses its SD advantage as the bullet expands. Then, the 9.3 must continue to penetrate with 114 grains less mass to push the new, wide meplat. Velocity will be lost quickly.

The wide meplat 405gr 45-70 will lose no mass, and there will be zero increase in frontal area. Penetration should be impressive.

On the game appropriate to such ammo (your pick), does the 9.3 really have much advantage here?

Again, I am not offering that the 45-70 is appropriate for any and all game. I am simply challanging the idea that the 9.3x62 is a better killer of game that a selected 45-70 factory load.

Your comments.

In this particular scenario only, the Punch solid will have more frontal area and be a better stopper up to 150 yds over the 9,3. If we're just talking comparative cartridges, bigger is always better. It just depends on the range you'll be encountering and that's where the 9,3 will have a flatter trajectory for that occasional long shot.

RB,
Here is link that I hope will help you.

Accruate Reloading Pages

Garrett Ammo
Garrett Ammo

Here is link to a hunt report on Kudude on his safari with a 9.3X62. He took several species with the round.
Kudude Hunt Report

I suppose that handloading the 45/70 in a stout bolt action would produce the results you are seeking.

Ranger Bob,
(i am always surprised no one has said "okay, forget the 45/70.. let's say 450 marlin")


I think your conditions are interesting, yet not actually "valid".. and here's why

assumptions
caliber and ME are required by law to hunt DG in most african countries. These even goes UP in some, depending ongame.

9,3x62 is generally considered the LEAST or threshold round for taking DG, based on the assumption above

45/70 rifles CAN withstand the pressure of a jacked up load but on in modern guns
***

One can't compare a single specific LOAD (45/70) against the gammut of 9,3x62 loads.. here's why.. generally, it's possible to take two ranges, and select the highest 10% of one to compare to the lowest 10% of another, and have something either overlapping, or "near" each other.

We wont even go into SD at this point, so lets look at "what the guns do"

Let's take this hot 45/70 load (no one else sells 45/70 THIS hot, btw) and look at nominal, nonspecialized, etc 9,3

ME at muzzle
45/70 - ~3750
9,3 ~3660...
"winner" 45/70....

wait a sec.. what happens at 50 (using quickload/quicktarget)

45/70 me - 3100
9,3 me .. ~3450

100?
45/70 has lost 1/3 of it's energy ~2750
9,3 .. about 3100....

and it gets FAR worse from there,in increments of 25 yards, which i won't bother typing over, the 45/70 burns of MV like a lawndart hitting softsand.


So, let's make this more fair.. and since the 45/70 has to be way way jacked up to be in play (500fps faster than it's "standard" load)... let's run the pressure up on the 9,3....

say, from 2400fps to 2600 fps (high pressure, pushing it load, same like 45/70)..

~4300lbs-ft ME... and then more at 100 than the 45/70 has at 25....

So, in short, you can jack a 45/70 load way the heck up, and it can "play" in the DGR world... but if you allow that the other loads should be equally tweaked to max, there's no play in that game.


Or,
Quite frankly, if a man wanted to take a lever gun on safari and hunt dangerous game, he would be better served rebarreling a BLR to 458 winmag and being safe... rather than a 45/70, and being marginal... and, since we are always going to be talking about mondern rifles anyway...

hell, just buy a 71 and rebarrel to 450 alaskan

jeffe

Just for grins ,


I bought some of the Buffalo Bore loads that were loaded to similiar pressures. Recoil was outlandish to say the least

The 350 grain loads (which were close to the published velocites of the Grizzly rounds), were causing the action on my Marlin to open a wee bit after each shot. That bothered me just a little!

In the world of DG hunting, I want RELIABILITY over anything else. I'd rather have a 30-06 loaded with 220 grain bullets, at moderate velocities, than a rifle that has been pushed to the max, that may, or may not jam on me.

If you are going to push the 45-70, I think Garrett's loads are much saner...

If I was looking for those velocities in that sort of chambering, I'd build a 450 Marlin on a bolt action rifle. A wildcat based off of the 350 Remington, necked up to .366 or .375, with a magazine long enough to seat the bullets out to a proper length might even be better.

So, we are right back to the 376 Steyr...

The 9.3 x 62 pushes a 286 grain bullet at 2450 fps with no pressure issues out of 2 of my 3 rifles in that caliber (did not chronograph the third one). So what we are really talking about is 14 grains difference in bullet weight, and 0.009" difference in bullet diameter. These differences are negligible. I know this is a slippery slope and soon we will be talking about the suitability of a .222 for DG hunting.

Now let's look at the 45-70 shooting 500 grain bullets. I do not wish to consider 400 grain 45 caliber bullets because the sectional density is too low to be taken seriously. Randy Garrett, the greatest proponent of the 45-70 for DG, loads a 500 grain solid to 1530 fps. In contrast, the 450 Nitro Express (also the 470 NE) push a 500 grain bullet at 2150 fps. I am guessing that an additional 600 fps, which is a 39% jump in velocity, has something to do with the greater effectiveness of the 450 NE and 470 NE. Also note that guys who used early 458 Win Mags pushing 500 grains at 1900 fps saw very poor penetration. Reducing velocity by another fps below a load which was already shown to penetrate poorly doesn't seem like a good idea in light of that.

This is an 'apples and oranges' comparison, between a 'solid' and a 'soft', and paper ballistics don't mean much in the hunting fields (otherwise the .378Wby. would rule the world).

When that .45-70 load has killed a few thousand head of game, we'll have more data for a comparison.

You have to remember that the 9.3x62 has a very long history of widespread usage in Europe and Africa.

The .45-70 may have been somewhat widespread in the western U.S., but was never very common, and has become less so over the years. It now occupies a niche in the shooting/hunting world.

While some advances in bullet and powder technology have breathed new life into the .45-70 cartridge, the prevalence on bolt-action rifles in the hunting fields will militate against it becoming a favorite around the world.

George

Woodleigh also make a 320 gr soft and solid for the 9.3 to don't forget....from all accounts it can be driven to 2300 fps.

I appreciate that all here have responded as gentlemen. Thank you.

But I notice that most have assumed that I referred to using the 9.3x62 or the 45-70 on DG. I did not. My scenario allowed you to chose the game that you considered appropriate to the ammunition in question.

In this case, the game may be elk, moose, bear, kudu, eland, or any other game. I did not want to drag this very limited question into a disscusion of hunting DG with minimal cartridges.

I do not think that this soft/solid comparison is out of place. The 9.3 must have an expanding bullet to equal the frontal area of the 45-70 solid. A stout 9.3 should end up at about .45 or .50 caliber once expanded.

And the .275 SD of the 405 grain solid will remain constant. The .305 SD of the 9.3 expanding bullet will be reduced almost on contact with flesh. Since a SD of .275 is equal to a 180gr .308 or a 270gr .375, it should be sufficient for any game short of African DG.

Granted, the 9.3 will have a longer effective range. It may buy another 50 yards. In some areas, this may be critical. It other areas, it may be meaningless (I've never pulled the trigger on game over 110yds away).

But the question is: In the scenario posted, can you say with confidence that the 9.3 with Barnes X bullets is a better "killer of game" than the 45-70 with the 405 grain "punch bullets"?

If you think the 9.3 is better, that is fine. I just ask that you explain.

BTW - I do not own a 45-70 or a 9.3. I regard this as a personal difficiency. I would probably buy a 9.3 before the 45-70 . . . just because it's cool.

Thanks again for remaining gentlemen.

I don't believe any of those 45-70 specs apply nor does the 44 magnum or 44 special with handloads...

A dangerous game caliber must reach 2000 FPS minimum before it does anything else until then its a deer and perhaps an elk round..

I have seen the 45-70 used on lots of elk with hot handloads and proper bullets, it has never impressed me in the least, its a slow killer and surprisingly enough does not necessarily leave a decent blood trail..I have several of these poor kills on film...

Now thats my opinnion on the 45-70, and based on my observation it will not change, but for those that insist on using it, then do so, its your hunt and your money...

I consider the 45-70 a decent short range deer rifle caliber...the exception is the Ruger No. 1 and it can be loaded to compete with a 458..

You should listen to Ray. He has seen enough game killed to know what works.

You know he hunted mastodons before the last Ice Age, and some of his kills are posted on the walls at Lascaux.

Here's one from his original 'web site'

George

I wonder how long till "cats" comes over and posts on this thread too.

Ray I can't help this.
George that picture from Ray's original website is a classic.
I think that is better than the Mona Lisa

If you think the picture is a classic, then you should have been there with that damn 9.3!! Mastadons are really really big!

Ray I don't see any guns in that picture
Were they invented yet?
Are you sure you don't have 9.3 mixed up with 9.3thousand years ago?
Just messin with ya Ray.

I don't understand this debate at all. I've shot more than 10 species of game with the 9.3 without a hitch and will do so again. I have shot several melons and a half dozen water jugs with the 45/70 (albeit an old trap door) maybe even a jackrabbit or two and see no reason to use it for anything else. Sure does make those water jugs explode though.

It's reverse engineering. The old black powder 450 NE had ballistics similar to the 45-70 Garrett Hammerheads. They worked, but got a lot of people killed, so with smokeless powder, the guys gave up the two and four bores, and went with the 450-470 NE, at about 2100 fps, and all was good.

Next Winchester figures they can make a bolt with a 458, use powders that clump under compression, and heat, and don't ignite properly, or consistently, under thin jacketed Hornady bullets, 500 grains,that came apart on impact, if IIRC, and have a hard time hitting 1900 fps.

The next generation figures if the 458 Win mag is borderline, lets use new powders and bullets, and use an even older cartridge, and go much slower, 1600-1500 fps?

The next step is to go back to the 45-120 or something(Oh, but those might actually WORK, so we can't do that). Guess that leaves we go back to handguns for dangerous game...

The stupidity of this progression is fueled by large bullets, slow-moderate velocity. I will say the British did make this work, using 24 pound cannon balls, at the same velocity Garretts hammerheads are going.

Also, a bunch of handgun hunters have used 45 Linebaugh, 475 Linebaugh, .50 Linebaugh, to kill Dangerous game, and the results have been pretty marginal, but, they did work.

I think it's part of the back to the old west, times were better movement...sort of a Quaker sort of deal...

Ranger Bob
I have given some thought how to answer your question.
My favorite hunting rifle under 40 cal is a Chapuis 9,3x74R double rifle. I have also used a 45/70 a fair amount.
I have only shot deer with the 45/70, but I have shot black bear waterbuck and kudu with the 9,3x74R.
I have used 300gr,350gr, and 400 gr bullets loaded to 45/70 +P in my No1.
Out to 150 yards on game less than buff or elephant I do not think the animal would know the difference. Even on buff I think the 45/70 with the proper load/ bullet would do ok... But I think the 9,3 and the 45/70 are marginal on buff, I prefer at least a 450/400.
On elephant the 9,3 with solids gets my selection as I know it will reach the brain on a bull from the front. Again I think a 450/400 is the wise minimum. Yes I even consider the 375 too light for elephant for ME.

I find all these 45/70 for Africa "discussions"
a waste of time, and high blood pressure.
People have proven it CAN be done....
However I think it is wise and prudent to select a calibre that can "get it done" under all circumstances.
But I admit if I can get my 475 Linebaugh FA revolver into Zim in 2006 I plan on shooting an elephant or two with it, maybe even a buff.
Any time a person used something other than the ideal gun for a particular animal, I consider it a "stunt" hunt. Thus ALL archery, and handgun hunts are "stunt" hunts. Do not take any offense to this. When I hunt deer and pigs with an elephant gun it is a "stunt" hunt, and I know it, a scoped 243 would be a "better choice". When I choose a particular hunting gun I am willing to live with in its limitations.
Bob I have kind of strayed from a direct answer, but I do not know if there is one. I did buy a Marlin in 45/70 for grizzly and black bear protection in Montana to carry while my wife and I hunted grouse. This was before my double rifle days.
I really prefer a double rifle for ANY dangerous game, but it is hard to justify the price of a double rifle for a lot of people, especially for a bear protection rifle in the USA.
I guess the bottom line is I would not be afrain to take a Marlin Guide Gun with the proper loads and use it for a protection gun on ALL game short of elephant.
For NA I would feel fine. For Africa. give me nothing less than a 450/400. Sometimes you have got to ask your self "How much is your life worth?"
As an all round hunting calibre I would have to consider the 9,3x62 or the 9,3x74R a superior hunting cartridge.
If I could only have 2 hunting rifles, one of them would be my 9,3x74R Chapuis double rifle.
Considering how many different rifles/calibres I have used over the years, that is a pretty big statement.

Sir, you have given a well reasoned and thoughtful answer. I appreciate this.

I find it interesting that you and Ray were the only people (if I remember correctly) who responded to the actual question I asked. We have had so many arguments about the 45-70 on Dangerous Game that many people default back to that question.

You and Ray seem to have different opionions about the 45-70 on elk size game, but both opinions are based on substantial personal use. This is also appreciated.

With much less experience, I would tend to agree with you:

quote:

Out to 150 yards on game less than buff or elephant I do not think the animal would know the difference.

Thanks again.

Bob,
sorry you did like my answer, even though it was completely full of facts, calculations, comparisons and I left the conclusion to yourself.

you are forgeting that SD of a same type bullet will give you a trend on determining both penetration and expansion

if possible, if you had this punch bullet in .458 and 9,3, the 9,3 would have a higher SD and more energy at 50 yards (within your 110 yard window) and of course at 100 and going.

al else being equal, the higher SD bullet will hold its "sd while expanding" longer than a lower one, and a higher velocity, to a point, will go in further.

so to compare quite simpley at 50 yards, 405 .458 and 286 .366
45/70 -SD, -Vel. -KE (at target)
9,3 +SD, +Vel, +KE

In no circumstance does the 45/70 come up ahead WITH THE SAME BULLET outside the "at the muzzle" paper ballistics.

Simply, game is not taken at the muzzle.

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

Simply, game is not taken at the muzzle.

jeffe

Hear, hear!!
Well put. You will be quoted on that, sir!

.

Jeffe,

I'm sorry if you took offense at my comment. I intended no offense.

I was simply stating that most people did not answer the question that I ask. That's OK. I don't get to tell people what to write.

But I did ask a very narrow question. I picked the calibers, the bullets, the velocities, and restricted the discussion to non-DG. I also stated that your opinion was entirely yours. I support your right to your opinion.

Most people referred to DG, or told me to make the bullet type equal, or make the SD equal, or pick a more standard load, or some other alteration to the question.

That's fine, but it does not purely answer my question.

It appears that you like the 9.3 better. That's great. I will probably own one myself someday. I am not likely to buy a 45-70 since I already have a .458WM and that seems like too much duplication.

But, I really doubt that an elk or moose could tell the difference between the loads I picked at less than 100yds (or probably 150yds). At longer range, it's obvious that the 9.3 is better simply on PBR.

Once again, I'm sorry if my comment made you feel that I did not appreciate your post.

bob

RangerBob
Tell us about your 458 rifle.
I have owned 2 of them, and use one now for a "work" rifle. My favorite double is my 450 No2, so as you can see I am fond of the .458 bore.
In a bolt rifle I think a 458 is a great choice, or maybe now the 458 Lott. With 500 grain bullets the modern 458 loads are good for buff and elephant. With 400 or 450 grain loads The 458 makes a great big bear, moose and elk rifle in the thick timber.
With 300 or 350 grain bullets loaded to their working velocities [no need to push 300 gr bullets over 1800fps] it makes a great deer and pig rifle.
The 9,3x62 would be a great bolt rirfle to go with your 458.
Baised on my use of the 9,3x74R with 286 grain bullets, I think it kills game out to 300 yards as good as a 300 mag, or a 375 H&H.
It does not shoot as flat as the 300, or hit quite as hard as the 375, but it sure has worked great for me.

Bob,
no offense taken...

btw, I have a 45/70, and no 9.3... but i DO have a 376 steyr, which is about the same thing..


we call the 45/70 the "crack head bigbore" as it weight 6.5# and throws 405s at 1800-1820 in a handirifle LOL

jeffe

NE 450 No2,

A couple years ago I traded my way into a Ruger #1 Tropical in .458WM. In a practical sense, it's a silly thing for me to own. I don't hunt Africa, and probably never will (other priorities for my money). But I do like shooting big guns.

Really, I'm a cast bullet nut, and I like the fact that large bore cast bullets work on deer and elk almost regardless of velocity.

I have tried about 30 different cast bullets loads in the .458. So far the 500+gr bullets have proven to be the most practical. The long throat and quick twist rifling are very tough on short bullets. I have a hard time getting any accuracy above 1700fps with 350-400gr cast bullets. The 500 grainers are more accurate accross the board, and ironically, can be pushed faster while maintaining their accuracy.

My deer load is a 525 grain cast as a soft nose, over enough IMR-4895 to push it 1550fps. In the eastern woods, this really hits hard and destroys little meat. Trajectory is poor, but it works fine to 125yds.

While not cast bullets, I would like to do some work with the 300-400gr spitzers or semi-spiters. I'm inspired by Phil Shoemakers comments about the effectiveness of 400gr Northforks on big bear. I will probably work up a fast load for the 350gr Northfork to use on longer range elk. I figure 2400fps should be easy to achieve and still have modest recoil.

Really the .458 is a toy, but I've had a ball with it.

Bob.

RangerBob
I have a 45/70 No1, it is one of my favorite rifles. Both of the 458,s I had and loaded for were bolt rifles. Speer 400 grain bullets with IMR 3031 shot well from 45/70 velocities to near max loads.

If I get another 458 It will probably be a No1 as I really like them. However if I can fine a Heym 458 double after I retire...... it would be my new pig gun.