Well guys, I have loaded up a mess of 535gr Woodleigh PP for my Jeffery. I am going to use the RL 15 load from the Loading pages of the forum and see if my shoulder can take the pain tomorrow. Wish me luck!

Have fun.

Hog Killer

Good luck -- take some pictures.

Lots of luck..

you are going to be pleasantly surprised that it doesn't amputate your arm... if it's about 2350, in a 10#, it's not so bad

jeffe

Can we have some pics of your .500 J !!

Good luck, give us a report. I will be interested in your assessment of the .500 Jeffery. Recently bought a action that I am thinking about having a .500 Jeffery built on . . .

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
Can we have some pics of your .500 J !!

x2

Save a few rounds fro me to shoot!!!!!!!!!!

Man wish I could have been out at the range with you all this morring hope all went well.

Next time Ill tell you how the hog hunt with DJ realy went

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Well guys, I have loaded up a mess of 535gr Woodleigh PP for my Jeffery. I am going to use the RL 15 load from the Loading pages of the forum and see if my shoulder can take the pain tomorrow. Wish me luck!

lb404,
IIRC, ALF suggested the 500 Jeffery load data of which you speak could have damaged a 500 Jeffery rifle of his, causing development of excessive headspace.

Tread lightly if you have a standard length Mauser action barreled to 500 Jeffery.

Have fun.

We are back and all seems to be fine. We shot 12 rounds of 535 gr. Woodleighs PP. I used 110 gr. Reloader 15 with a Fereral 215M primer. The rounds chronographed at an average of 2435 f/s. Accuracy was poor which is uncharicteristic for a big bore at 6-7 inches. I am using the lead sled for now. My shooting partner djpaintless shot about half of the rounds off the bags. He said the recoil was substantial and would not let me shoot it off the bags as I am still in rehab. from my right shoulder surgery earlier this year.

I am thinking a slower velocity might tighten groups. I have about 200 of the GS Customs in 540 gr.FPS that I want to shoot.

My rifle is a standard action. What Issues can I have with this that Alf was referring to? I am looking for another load to try this week, 100gr of Varget was one load suggested. Any other 500 Jeffery loaders out there that can share loading experiences and data??

I'm thinking those 535's at about 2150 is where we want to be. Recoil was unpleasant enough that without a lot of work I wouldn't be able to hunt with it using 535's at 2450 - it was a little stouter than I care for.
I'm thinking a 458 Lott may be the upper limit of my pain tolerance.
Of course that doesn't mean I'm not going to shoot it again next time. Ah, the things we do for friends..... .........DJ

Thanks for the report, Leonard! You take it easy!

Lb404,
I think you have a max load (for a standard Mauser bearing the 500 Jeffery bolt thrust) with 110 grains of RL-15 and 535 grainers. Probably about 40,000 psi by my SWAG.

However, original ballistics were 535 grain bullet at 2300 fps using 95 grains of Cordite. You are well over 2400 fps and showing poor accuracy.

I would consider backing off the RL-15 or substituting a similar amount of Varget, maybe start at 100 grains of Varget Extreme and work up.

Maybe use of a Dacron wad filler in the 500 Jeffery with Varget or RL-15 (like Nickudu did with the .505 Gibbs) will improve the accuracy.

That would be the best recipe (100 to 105 grains of RL-15 or Varget Extreme with Dacron filler) for least recoil, best accuracy, and you know that 2300 fps with 535 grainers will be well below 40,000 psi in the 500 Jeffery.

Your rifle should last forever.

/

Alf,
Then we have finally found something wrong with the A-Square manual.

The blurb on the .500 Jeffery was written by Craig T. Boddington (CTB). Pg. 598, half way down the page (1996):

"Original ballistics were a 535-grain .510-inch bullet, propelled by 95 grains of Cordite for 2300 fps and nearly 7000 foot-pounds of energy. This is pretty impressive ..."

I reckon Art didn't proof read Craig closely enough. I should have dug out your monograph on the 500 Jeffery and referred to it.


Some more remarks from Craig:

The original version had a slightly rebated rim, meaning that the case body has a larger diameter than the rim, as in the .284 Winchester. A few continental gunsmiths are making rifles in .500 Jeffery but, unfortunately, some are using the so-called "improved" version with a full sized rim. The cases for it are made in a guy's basement in Germany. All this has made a complete hash out of standardization. Since World War II, there was no bona fide firm to champion the .500 Jeffery (both Jeffery and Schuler had folded) and so it does not appear in the CIP. Art Alphin at A-Square and Dave Manson at Clymer found an original Jeffery drawing from 1928, researched the issue thoroughly, and have re-standardized the cartridge. A-Square is bringing out factory ammo for the .500 Jeffery in 1997 and through Art's connections in Europe, it may be re-introduced back into the CIP at the 1998 biennial plenary session."

That all sounds nice, but the drawing A-Square shows for the 500 Jeffery has a shoulder angle that differs from the 1928 Kynoch angle. Compare shoulder angles (all "semi-angles" or degrees per side at the shoulder):

Kynoch (1928): 12.63 degrees
A-Square (1996): 20 degrees
Romey "Hybrid" (1997): 19.97 degrees
and
RWS (1940) 12.7x70mm Schuler: 23.54 degrees

My pressure SWAG's are based on perusal of the A-Square pressure data, hopefully trustworthy for such SWAG.

Thanks for your comments, and any further that may be made on the fascinating 500 Jeffery.

It would seem that the new FN monometal solids available for the 500 Jeffery would take care of any concerns about lack of penetration.

.505/525gr for .505 Gibbs
.510(or .509)/535gr for Jeffery

Both at about 2300 fps, keeps pressures and bolt thrust a non-issue.

At RIPoff Arms we save the .509/570gr FN's for the 500 A-Square and 500/470 Mbogo, jacked up to 2400 to 2500 fps as a reason for being.

Note that 110 grains of RL-15 has been my favorite load with the 570 grainer in the 500 A-Square, giving an accurate 2405 fps from a 23" barrel, with XLC's, and GSC FN bullets to same POI. My SWAG on this pressure is 50,000 psi, with the smaller case and heavier bullet of the 500 A-Square.

For the 500/470 Mbogo, I will start from scratch with Varget Extreme at 100 grains and work up, with TSX 570 grainers for starters.

For the .500 Jeffery on an opened up Mauser 98, shoot for 40,000 psi or less. Seems Alf agrees with that.

Thanks guys. I was hoping that this rifle would be a bit better in free recoil than the 505 Gibbs I owned for a few years. I guess I am just a whimp when it comes to recoil. I really have no trouble with the recoil up to the 458 Win Mag and in my 458 Lott with a mercury recoil reducer in the butt. Not meaning to seem disrespectful, but when you guys that have the bigger calibers say they are pleasant to shoot I have to wonder what planet you are from. All of the ones I have shot HURT period. DJ and I shot all of 25 rounds of 505 Gibbs in one afternoon along with the other big stuff we have. That Gibbs had the best of us both on and off the bags. I just don't get it. I would usually walk away from a session with a severe headache. Susan, my wife and a great shooter/hunter in her own right, put the ixnay on the Gibbs so I sold it back to the maker. Every few years I get dumb again and repeat the same mistakes. I was hoping that I could load the 500 Jeffery down a bit 540gr. GS Custom FN solids at about 2150 or so. How much reduction in recoil would that yield?

Alf,
you are sort of right, though age doesn't actually have a thing to do with if it was originally loaded with cordite or not.

.. the 500 jeffe wasn't designed to be loaded, it was designed for GERMAN flake powder when it was the Schuler ... the gibbs was designed FOR cordite...

you should know that guys (mistakenly) say "original cordite loads" to mean the very low pressure original loads with original powders...

j

Jeffe,
It seems that somebody somewhere came up with a fanciful Cordite load for the 500 Jeffery, and it wasn't me. Maybe CTB got the 500 NE confused with the 500 J???

lb404,
I stuck your numbers into the AccuLoad recoil calculator, which doesn't require a powder charge specified:

1) 540gr/2150fps/10#rifle >>> 73.84 ft-lbs
2) 535gr/2435fps/10#rifle >>> 93.17 ft-lbs

I assumed a 10 pound rifle. We may see what some other recoil calculators show, with powder charge weight inputs, for what it's worth. At least some relativity here between the 2 loads with some constant for powder contribution (trifling differences).

A 535gr Woodleigh Weldcore and a 540gr GSC FN combo would be perfect at 2150 fps.

You will likely need the Dacron filler for sure to slow them down that much with RL-15 or Varget Extreme. I vote Varget for the ultimate in temperature stability and velocity consistency, hot or cold, though RL-15 is good enough.

I could load the 500/470 Mbogo down to 500 NE ballistics for comfort too, using Varget and filler, or a case full of slow powder like H4831SC, etc.

You might want to try duplicating 500 NE ballistics with your 500 Jeffery also:

570gr/2150fps/10#rifle >>> 81.22 ft-lbs

That should be well below 40,000 psi also, for the opened up Mauser.

Either the 500 Jeffery or the 500/470 Mbogo (loaded to 3.75" COL) in a Magnum Mauser equivalent would never need to go beyond this for about 50,000 psi:

570gr/2400fps/10#rifle >>> 101.21 ft-lbs

Glad to have stirred Alf up over the "Cordite."

/

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Jeffeosso:

The 500 Jeffery was not designed in England but in Germany and they did not use cordite ! Kinda like skipped that phase of the growing up

Heh.. which is exactly what I said, and that some people may mistakenly say cordite ...

How much dacron filler if I use 100gr. Varget loading?

lb404,
I am thinking 4 or 5 grains by weight of the fluff dacron packed tight over the powder. I have some 500 Jeffery brass and 500/470 Mbogo that I need to try with 100 grains of Varget.

You might beat me to it, but I will give it a try later tonight and report back. Please report back when you have a chance to load one and see how it fits.

lb404,
Only 3 grains should be plenty of the Dacron with the 535 grain Woodleigh. Maybe just 2.5 grains of Dacron for use with the 540 gr GSC FN, or my 570 grain GSC FN, all with 100 grains of Varget Extreme, packed tight.

A friend of mine used the 570 grains bullets for his .500 J and they were good and worked fine on the moose.

a little ot perhaps ,but maybe our holy father Taylor will forgive me.

Dacron wad for 100 grain Varget load in 500 Jeffery or 500/470 Mbogo: 2 to 3 grains depending on the bullet length and the brass variety.

That's my final reckoning, and I am sticking to it. I do not like to hear powder rattling around in a loaded cartridge.

lb404,
I have a 500 Jeffery as well and currently use 95 grains of IMR 4064 with the 535 Woodleigh and it chronographs at 2185 fps out of my 26" barrel.
I did also try 100 grains of Varget, same bullet, it chronographed at exactly 2150 fps.
I do not use fillers of any kind and haven't found a need to.
Groups at 50 metres only off a bench run under 1 " for 3 shots. Rifle weighs 10lb 14 ozs.

H7H_mad, Thanks again for the information on loadaing for the 500 Jeffery. I will try both the Varget and I4064 to see what it will do in my rifle.

Alf

I had a small number of .500 rounds in my collection ,all of which simply had .500 on the headstamp, one of them cane minus powder, presumably having been pulled or even loaded that way, as the original cruciform low neck crimp remained in tact.

I pulled the bullet out of curiosity (shame!) and on the heel of the bullet impressed into the exposed lead is a small "K", an indent utilised by Kynoch of much of their solid nosed bullet production. I have seen also bullets from amongst other calibres .450 N.E; .465 N.E and .475 N.E all bearing a similar K, the only difference being the size of the impressed "K".

I spoke to David Little yesterday and he is adamant that 2 small batches of .500 Ammo was loaded here in the U.K and boxed in 10 round buff cardboard slip top boxes bearing Jeffery's details and address and sold only by that firm.

I missed out on such a box with 3 remaining rounds around 4 years ago when it sold for £250

A friend here (Martin Golland, if you know of him) has the box and remaining Schuler loaded rounds (12 I recall) that featured in a book written by Chritopher Austen , the name of which temporarily alludes me (but is themed on British Sporting Rifles) as I am away from my library as I write this.

This does noting to add to the conjecture of cordite / nitrocellulose arguments as the particular case in question is inert but it does bear testimony to the argument that Kynoch did load their own bullets here in the U.K, presumably that as shown of Drawing BK 82 of August 1928 into cases supplied almost certainly provided by G.C. Dornheim of Suhl.

Of the remaining rounds I have, 2 of them if shaken clealry indicate being loaded with loose flake powder whilst the third, although looking identical does not have the distinct rattle of powder , this is not much of a test however as it could simply mean that any wadding present has just shifted allowing the powder to rattle. I don't know and am not willing to defile the remaining rounds.

Alf, is there any chance on this thread of you posting a few fuller pics of your original rifle, especially the front and rear sight detail and barrel mounted swivel loop. I ask as I have had a similar components made made for my own contemporary .500 and would like very much to compare the accuracy ?

Thanks

JT

/

Jonathan,

Was it Christopher Austyn's Classic Sporting Rifles? I have all three of his books but they are still in India. Need to go there and ship them across.

Cheers!

/

This thread got me to go back and clean up my personal (and hopefully the last) 500 I built.

thanks for the inspiration and pics

jeffe

Alf

Sorry I may have caused some confusion here, the two boxes to which I refer were one by Gecado that is featured on page 49 of classic Sporting Rifles, this is owned by Martin Golland in Hull, East Yorkshire, England and a second box that sold through Holts Auctioneers that was labelled with Jeffery's own paper label.


When Ispoke to David he mentioned the work of Casey Lewis and his Jeffery .500 but when I put it to him that Jeffery, or rather Kynoch on their behalf never loaded ammo in Birmingham, David disagreed with me, stating that two batches were loaded here, i did not however labour on the point of whether that amounted to simply replacing the Gecado bullet with one made by Kynoch, this is a distinct possibility as the round I pulled, although inert, does appear to have a kynoch made bullet. If I can get my camera to focus close in i will try and take a picture of the bullet heel, the weight of which is 2/10 grain under 535 grains, of cupro nickel and solid nosed.

I am to speak with David again next week on another matter but will ask him of his understanding of the true extent of Kynoch's involvement (or lack of it).


Thank you for the pictures of your own .500, it is a gorgeous loking rifle, I am most jealous.

JT

Mehul

You are quite correct, I spent the afternoon trying to recall the correct title, but failed miserably. Thank you

/

Well ALF if you get trouble of keeping the rifle, just give me a notice and ill store it for you!!

Cool that a ordinary gunfreak grabs that rifle instead of the zillionears once in a while. There was a auction in Sweden last year where they sold a .500 Jeffrey for 15000 Swedish kroner, 2200 us.