Hi forgiveness for the trouble again, but I've found this blog, which states that the 458 Winchester Magnum is more versatile and powerful than the 458 Lott. Can this be true? I leave the link.

http://bigborefan.wordpress.co...t-vs-458-winchester/

Thank you,

Oscar.

Oscar,

Comparing factory loaded ammunition to factory loaded ammunition it is not correct.

However for the handloader...it is correct only is your rifle uses the longer throated SAAMI spec 458 WinMag chamber and your specific rifle action would allow 3.6" or longer COAL...and then only when compared to a 458 Lott using the shorter throated SAAMI spec chamber. Of course this goes out the window if your Lott chamber is long throated and your magazine allows 3.7"-3.9" length COAL.

What crap/ mierda !

quote:

Now, as to this contest between the Lott and the Winchester: The Winchester will easily “win” when bullets are handloaded and seated to a max allowable COL and crimped into the bottom, or second from bottom, groove in banded bullets such as Barnes, North Fork and some others. That’s because it has slightly more powder room than the Lott using the same bullet and powder. ALSO, that assumes equal barrels

How does a smaller case have more powder room when loading the same bullets, you ask? Easy, do not seat the bullets to the same depth!

Then , there is this gem:

quote:

In a potential situation where a .458 Winchester with a 22″ tube, and constrained to a max COL of 3.34″ (as per SAAMI), there’s NO DOUBT that a .458 Lott with a 25″ barrel and a COL of 3.6″ will beat the Winchester by about 150 fps shooting 500′s. On the other hand, my rifle, loaded to max with the 500gr Barnes Banded, to a COL of 3.67″, will embarrass the Ruger Magnum MK II in .458 Lott with it’s 23″ barrel, and constrained to a max COL of 3.58″ shooting the same bullet!

So, by using two different COLs in two different manufacturers' rifle, he achieves...wait for it...different results!!!

Using scenarios specifically selected to minimize the .458 Lott's advantages, he declares the .458 Win. Mag. (for which he just happens to sell a reloading manual ) the 'better' round.

In any ballistic comparison between the two rounds where the guns, barrel length, and bullets are identical, and standard powder charges are used, the Lott wins.

George

458 Lott, no questions...IMHO.

Respects,

Phill

Loaded to the same OAL in the same length barrel they should be the same.

Same length barrel and the 458Win loaded to 3.34" the Lott walks away.

Bob posts here as 458 only, i believe. He set the bullets out to lott length or over, which gives net more case capacity .. which is only true in 3.65 length actions. in 3.34 length actions, the winmag is soundly beaten.

you can't put that much powder in a winmag case and seat to 3.34

Load results we did last summer between the winmag and the Lott, I used H335 for the Lott and could have gotten better results with the powder we used for the win mag but I achieved the 2250 I was looking for and also had fantastic accuracy at 50 with it. With the winmag, the powder they used got a 500 gr bullet to 2230 although the book listed it to be in the neighborhood of 2125. Our velocity goal of 2150 was achieved with 73 gr instead of max load. The Lott is the winner but the winmag can almost compete.

Unless we have entered some new era of transcosmic geometry . . . MORE is still MORE!

Duuuhh, the Lott wins.

I tallied in a pod with the longest and it can hold more powder lower benefits are achieved in a shorter sheath with less powder capacity. Just that. Thanks mates for your answers. And I apologize to the owner of the blog if I have been offended.

Oscar.

I'll tell you, after seeing CEB;s in action, I'd get a 458 Win Mag, stuff it full of CEB 450 solids and 420 non-cons at about 2200 or so and forget about it. Call it the 450 Rimless Express to keep all of the 458 WM naysayers quiet and go hunting.

quote:

I'll tell you, after seeing CEB;s in action, I'd get a 458 Win Mag, stuff it full of CEB 450 solids and 420 non-cons at about 2200 or so and forget about it. Call it the 450 Rimless Express to keep all of the 458 WM naysayers quiet and go hunting.

Hello, I'm not a critic of the 458 Winchester, I am owner of a 458 Lott and I would like to clarify if really worth owning a Lott or if instead the Winchester is as powerful as Lott, which would be meaningless existence of the latter.

Oscar.

btw, h335 is my all around powder.. from 223 to 550 magnum

quote:

Hello, I'm not a critic of the 458 Winchester, I am owner of a 458 Lott and I would like to clarify if really worth owning a Lott or if instead the Winchester is as powerful as Lott, which would be meaningless existence of the latter

Lo siento....

Did not mean to imply you were a critic of the 458 WM.

Check out Michael458's data on the 458WM and Lott with the CEBs, good stuff. http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...let-Performance.html


Necesito practicar mi espanol con mas frequencia para mis amigos de Espana para evitar la confusion!

I believe if I only bought factory ammo, the Lott would be the logical choice.
If I owned a 458WM and handloaded, I would not sell it for a Lott.
I happen to own both.

maybe, if pressures are not a concern.

Just buy a 450 Dakota or Rigby and stop worrying about such pipsqueaks...
500gr bullets at 2500 or a bit better. My Cape Buffalo loads in the CZ 450 Dakota were at 2470fps.

Rich

Not worried about pressures. Heck a 375 H&H pushing a 300 gr bullet @ 2600 FPS is as hot or hotter than a a 458 WM shoving a 500 at 2150 with AA 2230. No one ever complains about the H&H.
I have actually pushed a 500 gr Hornady ahead of 74 gr AA 2230 in about 100F (Texas) at over 2200 FPS without any bolt stickiness and primer pockets still snug (reloading). I am not saying that is advisable however I will typically run 72 gr to achieve about 2170 FPS out of a 24" tube ( Browning safari) and feel very comfortable in ANY heat. 100F is a 100F regardless of location , humidity withstanding but that will not effect the cartridge.
People say the same thing about a 416 Remington. I happen to have one of those as well. Never a problem with that one either with modern powders.
Besides most folks (not all!) hunt in Africa during the winter where it never gets close to 100F
Much to do about nothing IMO. Folklore.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Not worried about pressures. Heck a 375 H&H pushing a 300 gr bullet @ 2600 FPS is as hot or hotter than a a 458 WM shoving a 500 at 2150 with AA 2230. No one ever complains about the H&H.
I have actually pushed a 500 gr Hornady ahead of 74 gr AA 2230 in about 100F (Texas) at over 2200 FPS without any bolt stickiness and primer pockets still snug (reloading). I am not saying that is advisable however I will typically run 72 gr to achieve about 2170 FPS out of a 24" tube ( Browning safari) and feel very comfortable in ANY heat. 100F is a 100F regardless of location , humidity withstanding but that will not effect the cartridge.
People say the same thing about a 416 Remington. I happen to have one of those as well. Never a problem with that one either with modern powders.
Besides most folks (not all!) hunt in Africa during the winter where it never gets close to 100F
Much to do about nothing IMO. Folklore.

Spot on!

http://www.africahunting.com/3...l-than-458-lott.html

Asked the same question some time back on 3 different forums awseners never change

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
maybe, if pressures are not a concern.

Rich

pressure isn't .. no more than worrying if a telegram will reach san francisco in 2 days or less

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
http://www.africahunting.com/3...l-than-458-lott.html

Asked the same question some time back on 3 different forums awseners never change

I'm not a troll, maybe I'm a jerk, I do not deny that. But nothing troll. And I'll keep asking, where necessary and in the number of forums it takes as long as I have a question. A person who bother to keep it from the thread and as friends.

Oscar.

Thank you all for your responses. Including the person who accuses me of troll. I am ugly, but not so much lol.

Oscar.

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
http://www.africahunting.com/3...l-than-458-lott.html

Asked the same question some time back on 3 different forums awseners never change

By the way if anyone else upset and thinks I'm a troll, speak and I stop into the forum. I love this forum and I like to ask, but if people get upset and let the sacrifice will participate in the forum. As I say to my regret. The last thing you want is to disturb.

Oscar.

I have corresponded with 458only about this subject. The .458 Winchester, for some reason, has a lot of freebore and you can in fact do what he says if you have a CZ550.

It is also true, however, that with shorter magazines and 3.34" COAL length, it is very easy to exceed 2200fps with a 500 grain bullet in a .458 Winchester; and the .458 Lott, with equal pressures, will only beat the Winchester by about 70 fps.

Further, 450 grain bullets having large flat meplats, such as CEB, North Fork, G.S., etc., will penetrate further than traditional round-nosed "Kynoch shaped," and allow at least 50 fps more velocity with no adverse pressure consequences.

In short, if you're a handloader, there is no point in having a .458 Lott. It isn't worth the extra bolt throw length.

YOU SHOULDN'T BE LOOKING ANYWHERE ELSE BUT HERE AT THE AR FORUM FOR ALL YOUR SHOOTING QUESTIONS...... DUHHHH

If you were to use long for caliber bullets; Say 500 TSX's and 500 mono's. You would likely be better off with the Lott.
Not real sure these bullets are required any longer with really good 450's available (softs and solids). The 450's reduce recoil a bit as well. A 450 spire soft (TSX Swift, NF) out of a Lott @ 2400 FPS is a pretty good all around offering.
I shot some 450 TSX this morning @ 2370 FPS (12 Ft from the muzzle) that printed at the some point of impact as some 500 Hor. DGS @ 2230 FPS.
This particular rifle shoots about every load at the same POI. It is a bugger to shoot on the bench! Shot my Mod 71 afterwords; felt like a pop gun with 250 grainers...

quote:

So, by using two different COLs in two different manufacturers' rifle, he achieves...wait for it...different results!!!

Using scenarios specifically selected to minimize the .458 Lott's advantages, he declares the .458 Win. Mag. (for which he just happens to sell a reloading manual ) the 'better' round.

In any ballistic comparison between the two rounds where the guns, barrel length, and bullets are identical, and standard powder charges are used, the Lott wins.

George

Now George, you're showing bias!

You've just given a scenario with several assumptions that don't fit every situation (the same thing you accuse me of doing!

The scenario I presented was true for that rifle, and I experienced it. Many times. But, I did also present other cases (a 22" .458 Winchester with an action that would only allow SAAMI specs, as one example) where the Lott would beat the Winchester by 150 fps. Please be fair about that. AND it was mentioned that the difference between the two, all else equal--which they rarely are--is somewhere between 50 and 100 fps, based on Barnes and Hornady. That's not a precise figure, but approximate as I loaded my rifle at both Lott specs and Winchester specs. The difference in MY rifle was less than 100 fps, in favor of the Lott.

But using SAAMI specs the overall length of chamber + freebore is significantly greater in the Winchester than the Lott, and certainly true in the CZ550 in factory guise. I could seat long monolithics to 3.75" in the CZ... can standard length magnum actions do that? Say, a Rem 700, Sako 85 or Win 70... without some major alterations and expense?

And that thing about selling a manual... how rich do you think I'd get on that one? Yeah, they just about pay for themselves!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

Your stated conclusion that the .458 Win. is 'better' than the .458 Lott was based on your rifle samples, not on SAAMI specs. You used dissimilar seating depths, unequal freebore, etc. and skewed the results.

If you seat the identical bullets to the same depth with normal loads and identical freebore and barrel lengths, the .458 Lott case will produce more velocity, correct?

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Bob,

Your stated conclusion that the .458 Win. is 'better' than the .458 Lott was based on your rifle samples, not on SAAMI specs. You used dissimilar seating depths, unequal freebore, etc. and skewed the results.

If you seat the identical bullets to the same depth with normal loads and identical freebore and barrel lengths, the .458 Lott case will produce more velocity, correct?

George

Right George!

My point was NOT to prove anything! Certainly NOT that the Win Mag was "better", but simply to show that they are essentially the same, like "twins", only one twin being slightly taller than the other. What one will do so will the other, not more or less (unless you consider a diff. of 50 fps significant). In my CZ, with a 25" tube, I loaded it to over 2250 fps at SAAMI specs as a .458 Winchester. Loaded like a Lott (bullet seated out)it made 2282 fps. I think it could have made 2300 fps... maybe.

I think my point is being skewed, or missed. It is that the .458 Win Mag can equal, or exceed, the Lott, with a 23" tube, under certain conditions. Someone who picks up a Ruger in the Lott, goes to Africa with it loaded with handloads at 2250 to 2300 fps from 500s is NOT in a whole other world of ballistics than anothe r who takes a .458 Winchester with a 25" barrel loaded with 500s at 2200 to 2250 fps using premium handloads... is he? We are not talking factory loads, but safe handloads. According to Accurate Powder they received 2159 from a 500 Hor. at 53,808 psi from 2230 and 2192 from 2460 at 52864 psi from a 24" test barrel. That's close enough to Hornady and Barnes to be honest.

I had not trouble getting the figures I mentioned.

And, oh yes, they do not have identical freebores.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Thanks for the clarifications. Oscar was a bit nonplussed by what he read.

George

Oscar, you are NOT a troll! I like reading your posts. It is great to watch as you ask and learn about big bore rifles, and I hope you enjoy them as much as I do.

Jon

You are Spanish
I am American!

quote:

Oscar, you are NOT a troll! I like reading your posts. It is great to watch as you ask and learn about big bore rifles, and I hope you enjoy them as much as I do.

+1

Oscar is most definitely not a troll. He has been kind enough outside of the forum to send me information on Spanish gun laws and was most helpful.

Bigger case, bigger velocity.

The question is a bit absurd, but never hurts to drag out the AR physics experts.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Bigger case, bigger velocity.

The question is a bit absurd, but never hurts to drag out the AR physics experts.

Ain't it the truth!

Dear AR colleague, I thank you people would not consider me a troll and I acknowledge that I am a little heavy with the theme of the 458 Lott but this is a forum on guns and cartridges and whenever I am assailed by doubts I ask. Also ask in other forums in which I participate, there may be people who do not seem right but I'm not committing a crime only that I am a bore. And the person who said I was a troll, then simply tell him not into the issues that I started, but say no acknowledgment in vain.

On the subject of the 458 WM and the 458 Lott, I conclude that if you have a rifle in the Winchester cartridge really not worth buying a rifle in 458 Lott, nor convert the rifle in a cartridge Lott. I really am obsessed by nonsense, and I really like to buy a more powerful rifle cartridge and the one I like is the 500 Jeffery. But neither my budget allows, or the laws of my country either (by absurd rules 500 Jeffery cartridge is considered a war). And with regard to the budget I have an official salary, and is the only one who enters the house, plus my son has a hearing problem so you have to wear hearing aids and are quite expensive so you need to save for them, I think more important than rifles. In short, no more annoying. Forgiveness for having so widespread.

Thank you,

Oscar.

One last thing, I have a gun Ceska with a barrel of 65 cms (25.59 inches), what speed I can get with a bullet of 500 grains. I imagine that the 2300 feet per second. Thanks and I try not to bother for a while.

Oscar.

Oscar, with the newer powders as well as factory loads, the 458 Winchester will cleanly take any animal you might hunt, provided proper bullet placement, of course. Good luck with your rifle, and keep the posts coming!


Jon

quote:

Oscar, with the newer powders as well as factory loads, the 458 Winchester will cleanly take any animal you might hunt, provided proper bullet placement, of course. Good luck with your rifle, and keep the posts coming!

Hi mine is a 458 Lott. Thank you for your answer.

Oscar.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Oscar, with the newer powders as well as factory loads, the 458 Winchester will cleanly take any animal you might hunt, provided proper bullet placement, of course. Good luck with your rifle, and keep the posts coming!
Jon

Jon & Oscar,
Jon saved me some typing. The reason the LOT was created doesn’t exist today. The first factory 458 win mag suffered from lack of good powder. Now we have much better powder and projectiles. Yes the lott will give you a little more velocity or the same velocity as the 458 win mag with lower pressure.
Bill

I was able to get 2300 FPS with a 23" tube. I got 2280 FPS with Hornady factory 12' from the muzzle with a 23" barrel(CZ 550). You can do the same easily with AA 2520 if you can access that powder in Spain. I would suggest lead core bullets if you are concerned with compaction. Mono's are awfully long at 500 gr. Those 500's @2300 FPS will smack you pretty good on the bench. I personally settled at about 2250FPS with 500's. My preference with the Lott is 450's @ about 2400. I do not plan on shooting any elephants in the near future. I like 450's in the 458 WM as well @ about 2270 FPS.

quote:

Originally posted by ovny:
One last thing, I have a gun Ceska with a barrel of 65 cms (25.59 inches), what speed I can get with a bullet of 500 grains. I imagine that the 2300 feet per second. Thanks and I try not to bother for a while.

Oscar.

First of all the Lott is more powerful than the .458 win mag Period when loaded to SAAMI specs, END of Discussion!
With that said, I've repeatedly ( over 10 years here on AR in fact) talked about the fact that with long throated guns you can load the .458 win mag to literally equal a FACTORY LOTT. Been there done that! I've done it in Ruger N0.1s., CZ's, M98's and other guns. I use a Corbin cannelure tool to put a new cannelure on any bullet. Load the bullet out .25 inches and the case capacity is close enough that you won't notice the difference with the right powders. I've never ever been that excited about the Lott as there are many better .458 cartridges out there ( like the Ackley), however, I do own a few Lotts, but I don't get any more excited over a Lott than a .458 win mag. The only Lott I like in fact is my CZ 459 8lb O/U stopper, which I converted from a .458 win mag. The only reason it went to a Lott is because I figured some Doo-Doo brain aflicted with Lottitis would figure it was way more Powerful now and I'd get more money for it.-Rob