On other posts I've made here while awaiting my whitworth 458 win. It was mentioned some were made in yugo, and even that all were yugo made,and had never touched british soil..Well fellas, you just can't have a gun that has BNP stamped under a crown all over it without touching brit soil..I,ve no doubt there were off chutes, but when I look at this gun and see all those proofs,it did more than merely sale by on a ship as was suggested..

quote:

Originally posted by charger:
On other posts I've made here while awaiting my whitworth 458 win. It was mentioned some were made in yugo, and even that all were yugo made,and had never touched british soil..Well fellas, you just can't have a gun that has BNP stamped under a crown all over it without touching brit soil..I,ve no doubt there were off chutes, but when I look at this gun and see all those proofs,it did more than merely sale by on a ship as was suggested..

Charger, all the MK-X actions where made in Yugoslovia by Zestava, on equipment bought from FN of Belgium. The Alaska models ( the bargain basement rifles) from Interarms were built into rifles in the USA. The Whitworths Zestava MK-X actions were finished, barreled, and stocked in Mannchester, England, by WHITWORTH! That is the difference between the two seperate rifle systems made on Zestava MK-X actions, and imported by Interarms!

How do you know the Whitworths wern't barreled in Yugo and then stocked and PROOFED in England ? I'll bet the Alaskans were brought into the US as barreled actions .

There is also the possibility that the Whitworths had 2 different sources of barrels , as some of the members here have reported that their .375 s are fairly light , while other examples(including the one I own) are pretty heavy , around 9 lbs. bare rifle .

There also seems to be 2 different floorplate releases. Some have the lever at the front of the trigger guard , while others have a button at the upper front part of the guard at the rear of the floorplate .

I bought at one time a 375 Whitworth Express barreled action and stocked it in Exhibition French walnut. It had a relatively heavy barrel. I honestly think it had the best blue job I have ever seen on a factory rifle. It looked like an old time rust blue. There was a huge difference in quality between the Whitworth Expresses and the standard MkX.

I understand they all used German Bohler steel barrels. All were good guns and usually quite accurate. They all needed some pollishing of the feeding ramp and guides. That is no problem.

I have had four recently. One Interarms Mark X .458 and three Whitworths in 30-'06, 7mm Mag., and .458. The Mark X has express sights , and a plain stock with sling studs and a Whitworth pad. My Whitworths all are marked Manchester and appear identical as express rifles with nice color streaked straight grain stocks except the '06 has a standard adjustable rear sight even though the box is clearly marked express sight. I always thought of the .458 as a proper 45-70 as it is a bit light for a .458. For the low money in relative terms these Whitworths are very nice rifles. The Mark X is clearly a dicount rifle. The Whitworths are stocked for open sights while the Mark X is somewhat of a compromise.

All rifles sold in Britain are proofed, even American ones, unless there is an agreement with the producing country that they have independant proofing tests equal to or better than British ones.
Quite ammusingly Mannlicher used, in the old days, be stamped, not made in Britain and proofed usualy in Birmingham, BNP stands for
Birmingham Nitro Proof.
It's my understanding, but I could be wrong, that Whitworth rifles are not manufactured in Manchester.

As I understand it the true Whitworths were made in Yugo and assembled in Great Britten, not an unusual practice and thus the better quality....

"NOT ENGLISH MAKE"

You've been warned......

quote:

Originally posted by sdgunslinger:

There is also the possibility that the Whitworths had 2 different sources of barrels , as some of the members here have reported that their .375 s are fairly light , while other examples(including the one I own) are pretty heavy , around 9 lbs. bare rifle .

There also seems to be 2 different floorplate releases. Some have the lever at the front of the trigger guard , while others have a button at the upper front part of the guard at the rear of the floorplate .

There is a problem with a lot of folks calling all Interarms MkX actioned rifles Whitworth. This si not the case! There was a Interarms Mark X sporter bolt rifle that weighed only 7 1/2 lbs, was chambered for 9 calibers from 22-250, to 300 Win Mag. There was an Interarms Mark X Cavalier the same as the sporter, except it had a roll over cheekpiece, and rose wood grip cap, and fore end tip. There was a Interarms Alaskan that was the same as the sporter, except it was chambered for only 375H&H, and 458 WinMag, and weighed 8 1/4 lbs, and had a heavyduty recoil pad, and a cross bolt stock, but didn't have a barrel recoil lug. There were a couple Mannlicher style carbines, that were only chambered for 270,7x57, 308,and 30-06, and a plain utility stocked Viscount, the bottom of the Interarms line. Finelly there was the:QUOTE

"INTERARMS WHITWORTH EXPRESS RIFLE, AFRICA SERIES
Mauser-type bolt action. Calibers: 375H&H Mag, 458Win Mag. 3 shot magazine. 24-inch barrel. Weight: about 8 lbs, 3 leaf express open rear sight, ramp front sight with hood. English-style stock of European walnut , with cheek-piece, black forend tip, Checkered pistol grip, and fore-arm, recoil pad, Qd swivels. MADE FROM 1974 TO DATE BY WHITWORTH RIFLE CO LTD, ENGLAND!"

The above quote is from Interarms own specs from 1976!

All Whitworth rifles were fitted with a recoil pad with the Whitworth logo in the rubber, they all had the front swivel on a barrel ring, and all Whitworth express rifles had a recoil lug about 4" in front of the reciever on the barrel. The Magazine door release was always a spring loaded lever, with the button inside the trigger guard. All are stamped with an oval and Whitworth on top, and Whitworth on the side of the reciever ring, and along the left side of the action just above the wood, is the CZ logo, and INTERARMS, and MANCHESTER ENGLAND. The chambering is engraved in the barrel butt above the wood on the chamber area of the barrel. Action and barrel show the CROWN over "V" proof . The rear action ring is drilled and tapped for a reciever sight just ahead of the bolt handle, on the left side. the Blue is Rust blacked, not blued.

There has always been confusion about the Whitworth, simply because there were many other rifles made on the Zestava MK-X action. Addtionally, I believe there where those who had Alaskan rifles, who bought the Whitworth stocks, when the Whitworth was put in a synthetic stock for use in Alaska's rainy hunting season. I did exactly that, install one of my Whitworths in a synthetic stock, and gave the wood to a friend who had an Alaskan, where it resides today, but that doesn't make the Alaskan a whitworth, it's just wearing the uniform.

People seem to want to make any rifle made on that action to be a Whitworth, and this is simply not the case. This is a little like saying all rifles made on a Mauser 98 action are the same rifle!

Clear as muddy water, Mac. When I bought my Whitworth 375 H&H barreled action from Brownell's in the late 80s it had a slick barrel, no sights, sling band or barrel lug and no British proofs. It did have the Whitworth oval logo on the front receiver bridge. Also, it was definitely hot blued. In fact, I still have that action rebarreled to 416 Rem but the original barrel went away on eBay years ago.

Point being that the rifle left GB without proof marks. I assume it was a pass=through from Yugoslavia.

70s vintage Whitworths have some subtle differences from later models. The express sights are soldered rather than screwed on, the front ramp is long and straight and has a caterpillar blade that dovetails from the front, and the receiver ring has a castle embossed on the top rather than Whitworth in an oval. Mine weighs about 7.5 lbs (375H&H), a joy to carry, a mother to shoot.

No Mac , not all these rifles are exactly as you describe them , because I have the proof right here in my hand.

The action is plainly marked Whitworth in at least 2 different places. Barrel and action have the proof marks you mention , BUT

The floorplate release is a button rather than the lever style . The front sling swivel is mounted in the forend , not on a barrel band. By the way , it is definately a Whitworth stock as the recoil pad is so marked and it has the egg cheek piece . It does have the extra recoil lug on the barrel .

The express sights are screwed on , and the barrel shank is very heavy up thru the forend . The barrel does taper down to a pretty light contour at the muzzle , making for an excellent between the hands balance , and the stock is just right for the express sights . About the best pointing bolt rifle I've ever had my hands on .

But I'll bet there's a very good chance those guns came into England as barreled actions , with only the final finishing , stocking , fitting of sights , and proofing done by Whitworth .

quote:

Point being that the rifle left GB without proof marks. I assume it was a pass=through from Yugoslavia.

Tiggergate,

Any rifle made built or assembled on a commercial basis in the UK must be proofed, even if its for export.

I'm pretty sure its the same for barreled actions too..

I suspect yours has was sold as just an action??

Regards,

Pete

quote:

sdgunslinger
one of us
Posted 29 June 2005 00:04
How do you know the Whitworths wern't barreled in Yugo and then stocked and PROOFED in England

I dont know. The proofs do however speak to the previous idea that they never graced brit soil..They infact did,for one reason or another,and weather built there or final proofed there,its a sign of birmingham proof house satisfaction. Thats good enough for this kid.

The title has the wrong question...

there is no doubt on who the manufacturer is..

the actually question is MAKER...
Whitworth, a British Gun maker, would be the one's that sent them to the proofhouse.

So, the answer is, manf. Zavasta .. maker, Whitworth...

and little difference from the "famed" whitworth's that were custom mausers...

no wait, these ARE custom(ized) mausers

jeffe

Pete, then I'll have to assume the barreled actions never went through GB on their way here. It was not just an action. If I recall, the price was $175 or so at the time. Pretty close to what they sell for today, I think. I had it rechambered to 375 Wby and shot it like that for many years until about 97-98 when it became a 300/8 Mag and then a 416 Rem last year. I sold the barrel in 2001-2002 so my recollection is pretty fresh.

I suppose these could have the last production made for Whitworth before they quit and were never sent to GB. Interarms may have bought up the inventory and sold it as parts here in the US. Brownell's carried them for quite a while. Just speculation on an otherwise dull morning.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Clear as muddy water, Mac. When I bought my Whitworth 375 H&H barreled action from Brownell's in the late 80s it had a slick barrel, no sights, sling band or barrel lug and no British proofs. It did have the Whitworth oval logo on the front receiver bridge. Also, it was definitely hot blued. In fact, I still have that action rebarreled to 416 Rem but the original barrel went away on eBay years ago.

Point being that the rifle left GB without proof marks. I assume it was a pass=through from Yugoslavia.

TRIGGERGATE, I totally agree with you on the Barreled actions sold by Browell, but a barreled action is not a rifle! We are discussing the complete Whitworth Express rifle, as imported by Interarms. Many of the barreled actions where finished by smiths, and customers here in the USA, and the Barreled actions where available in other chamberings other than 375H&, and 458 Win Mag. That is why you some SO-called whitworth Express rifle that have been put together in take off Express stocks, and had the express sights installed here, chambered for things like 7mm Rem Mag. The complete Whitworth Express rifle was never offered in that chambering, but the sights, swivel ring, were available from Interarms, and the take off stocks were easy to come by! This is also why you see complete rifles, that have no barrel recoil lug, but the complete rifle from Whitworth did not come that way.

All this has resulted in a lot of bastardized
so-called Whitworth African Express rifles. What you have is the bastardized Whitworth by your own admission!

The fact remains the factory Whitworth African Express rifles where made by Whitworth, in Manchwster, England, and all were the same, and all have the Crown over "V" proofs!

It really doesn't make any difference, anyway, because if you are going to build your own rifle from parts, then it makes little difference what is stamped on the barrel or action, because what you will have is a one-off that has no real name other than what you want to call it, but it will not be a Whitworth Africna EXpress rifle!

Soooo, what you're telling me, this isn't a Whitworth? Even though it's a Whitworth action and sits in a Whitworth stock?

I wonder what a Winchester becomes after you rebarrel it?

Terry



P.S. Notice the floorplate release.

TC1, If that rifle came form the Whitworth factory as it is today, it still doesn't make it a Whitworth AFRICAN EXPRESS rifle. That's all I'm saying. What started all this was folks saying all rifles made on the Zestava action were the same, and the Whitworth 375H&H, and 458 WM, that was labeled WHITWORTH EXPRESS, AFRICAN SERIES are not the same, and makeing one up from spare parts doesn't make it one! Those rifles were made up at the factory within a certain serial number range. Not suggesting a Whitworth African Express is a collector's piece, but if it ever became one, the rifles made up of parts, would be considered composites, and not a true African Express series rifle. AGAIN, because a rifle is built on a Whitworth action, doesn't make it a WHITWORTH AFRICAN EXPRESS series rifle! The rifle you show is a beautiful rifle, and is difinetly in a Whitworth stock, but the bottom metel, and barrel are not origenal, because that factory designation applies to only one rifle made one way, in but two chamberings, it IS a whitworth rifle, but not a Whitworth AFRICAN EXPRESS! That name is like a trade mark, and applies to only the rifles that came from Whitworth with that name on the box! All others are Customs built on Whitworth actions. By the way what is your rifle chambered for?

This is going no place, and frankly, it isn't worth the effort! I like the Whitworth African express rifles, and own two, and have owned, and modified some others, but all mine started life as true Whitworth African Express rifles in factory boxes tha reflected that model designation.

I think get it. But why would Whitworth let so many action out with their name on them in such an uncontrolled manner? Did they go belly-up and lose control of that inventory?

quote:

All Whitworth rifles were fitted with a recoil pad with the Whitworth logo in the rubber, they all had the front swivel on a barrel ring, and all Whitworth express rifles had a recoil lug about 4" in front of the reciever on the barrel. The Magazine door release was always a spring loaded lever, with the button inside the trigger guard. All are stamped with an oval and Whitworth on top, and Whitworth on the side of the reciever ring, and along the left side of the action just above the wood, is the CZ logo, and INTERARMS, and MANCHESTER ENGLAND. The chambering is engraved in the barrel butt above the wood on the chamber area of the barrel. Action and barrel show the CROWN over "V" proof . The rear action ring is drilled and tapped for a reciever sight just ahead of the bolt handle, on the left side. the Blue is Rust blacked, not blued.

Mac,

I think we discussed my rifle a long time ago. I have a 458 Whitworth Express. Yes, it is a Whitworth. Not an Alaskan, not a parts gun. It was bought new and I still have the box marked Whitworth Express. Going through your list one item at a time . . .

It does have the Whitworth logo recoil pad.

It does not have the barrel band swivel.

It does have the recoil lug on the barrel.

It does not have the magazine release inside the trigger guard.

It does not have Whitworth stamps on the top or side of the receiver ring.

It does have the ZCZ logo, Interarms, and Manchester England on the left side of the receiver (also Alexandria Virginia).

The chambering is engraved on the barrel.

Action and barrel do not show a crown over 'V' proof, but do show what appears to be a crown over 'M' proof

The rear ring is drilled and tapped for a receiver sight on the right side.

It appears to be rust blacked.


FWIW
Cannon

Cannon what you have is a true Whitworth Express, African Series! I think on the Proof mark, what you are seeing as the legs of an "M" are the edeges of the stamp body used to stamp the Crown over "V" with what you are takeing to be the middle of the "M", is actually the "V". The stamping is a little sloppy on all rifles that are stamped by hand with a stamp & hammer!

None of this makes any difference to the shooter, but was given by me to answer CHARGER's question, and was not meant to start a crap fest here on Whitworth Express rifles. I think when Whitworth ended their contract because of the war in that part of the world where the Zestava actions were made, they sold their remaining parts to Brownell, and that is why you see so many different rifles with the Whitworth logo on them, with odd configurations. In any event, they are basicly very good rifles, and about as close as you will come to finding a true Mauser actioned Britt style express rifle, that was made that way at the factory! With a little tuneing that is occasionally needed, on them they are fine rifles. Since they are no longer available NEW, the price is shooting through the roof compared to the $425 US they cost in 1964 when they were first imported into the USA!

Mac,

I appreciate the information you posted, and wasn't trying to contribute to a 'crap fest'; just sharing the details on my rifle for information's sake. FWIW, mine was very late production; it was bought new around 1990 or 91.

If this thread accomplished nothing else, it motivated me to get mine out of the safe and shoot it for the first time in a long while.

I hate to jump in on this, but I also bought a barreled action, marked on the box and the barreled action as such, with no sights, no recoil lug, no barrel bands and with no floorplate lever. I didn't get it from Brownell's but from a dealer in Massachusetts who used to sell Ruger and other barreled actions at a steep discount. The metalwork was obviously way above the Interarms norm. What I suspect is that Whitworth bought the BA's already finished and then added their pieces and stocks. Some of them were diverted for whatever reason. The ones which didn't go through England weren't reproofed (although they came with a Yugoslavian proof; I still have it).

Cannon

What do you think your rifle would weigh ?

It sounds very close to the gun I have . I am thinking at some point during the later production the floorplate release was changed to the button style

The barrel contour was made heavier with the screwed on express sights........and

The front sling swivel was change from the barrel band to the forend location.

Hey Mac, The rifle pictured above is a .375 H&H. Now I know this is getting repetitive, but the stock is a Whitworth as you said it was and it's cut for the floorplate you see from the factory. It was also made for a heavy barrel rifle with the recoil lug on the barrel. So, what was it called? Just a regular Whitworth?

I'm not trying to be disagreable. But the stock did come that way. The action was sold as just the action though. But it came in the original Whitworth box and that is the bottom metal that came with it. Original? well I can't say for 100% sure that it is, but it matched up perfectly with the stock that was inletted for the floorplate release button so I'm assuming it is.

Of course on the rifle pictured everything from the action forward is after market, but Whitworth obviously made a rifle almost exactly like the one pictured, with the exception of the sights, quarter rib etc.



Terry

O.K. now that I'm confused how about some help. I received mine from my uncle. He was a hunting guide in Idaho for some time. He was guiding some guys from Germany for Elk. Well they got their elk and one of them gave his gun to my uncle as a tip. Said something about not wanting to pay a Firearm Import Tax(?) Anyway here is what I have.
-Caliber is engraved into the barrel 7x57
-Has the marking MARK X on the front left side of the action
-Also on the left side it is marked with a star inside a cirle followed by Alexandria Virginia followed by INTERARMS followed by Manchester England followed by The CZ stamp
-Has the barrel band swivels
-Floorplate release inside the trigger gaurd
-3 leaf fold down Express Site marked 100-200-300yds.
-Hooded front site
-Circle with the words Whitworth Express Rifle"on top of the barrel
-Whitworth logo on a 1" red recoil pad
-Looks like the Whitworth stocks I have seen in the past, with the ebony forend, but my cheek piece is different than the one pictured.
-And last a rust blue steel pistol grip cap.
What do I have? And, because mine was actually purchased in Europe some where, could they have sold different variations over there.--Thanks Mike
I have tried to look in the various blue books, but nothing they have exactly fits the description of this rifle.