I need some help in deciding which big bore I want/need.

Background: I'm a Yank banished to the UK the last dozen years. I have a firearms certificate here and have a .22, CZ .243, and a .30-06 double rifle. I'm planning on going to Africa (Zim, Tanz, or Namibia) to hung DG/PG in 2012 or '13.

I have talked to my Firearms Officer here and I can get ONE big bore for DG upon receipt of paid deposit on a safari. There are a couple of catches. The first is I will only be allowed about 60 rounds on hand to practice with at a time of solids, NO EXPANDING ammo PERIOD (stupid, I know, but its the law.) Second, before I apply to add the big bore to my license I have to pre-select the calibre. I can't just buy a .416, and .375H&H., and a .450/400 and shoot them until I pick the one I like.

So, which to pick?? My father in law back in Maine is willing to GIVE me his stainless action and synthetic straight pull stocked Weatherby .375H&H with countless bears to its honour. Fine gun, but damn if it ain't fugly I would HAVE to restock it with a nice piece of wood and coat the barrel with some kind of matte finish.

I LOVE my double .30-06 and am very tempted to find a double in .450/400. Problem is that while a double is fine for DG it won't really do for longer range PG. A bolt action would really be better for the PG in Namibia, etc.

So, maybe a Ruger No.1H in 450/400?? I don't mind single shots but more is always better. Classic gun.

If I opt a bolt gun and only get one big bore, maybe a CZ in .404 Jeffery would be the ticket.

So, in terms of usefullness, re-loading availability, etc., and only having one shot at it, which would you go for?? My brain says take the Weatherby .375H&H. My heart says go for a .450/400 double. My testosterone brain says,"505 Gibbs, DUDE!!!" Common sense says, "leave the Weatherby in Maine and use it for bears there and get a .404 or .416 bolt gun for DG/PG in Africa.

The voices in my head are starting to drive me crazy. Which should I listen too??

Folks are probably going to want to know what kind of DG you would be targeting.

Leopard or croc would result in a much different set of recomendations than say Buff or Elephant.

458 lott --
cz?

A Kreighoff double in 416/500. Fontal area of a 40+ caliber and velocity high enough to shoot flat and make 200 yd shots practical.

Buff! Then a little of the assorted PG (kudu, etc. and finish off with warthog.)Which is why the big fella in Maine wants me to take the Weatherby .375H&H.

.458's, while available at very reasonable prices, don't really interest me much.

I do like CZ's though. I traded my .243 Win for a CZ in the same calibre simply because I like the way it fit and the safety better.

And just for the record, budget is a concern. I could spend 2K or 3K for a good gun but 8K,9K, 10K or more is simply out of the question. I would rather spend that kind of money on a Ruger No.1 450/400, a pith helmet and trophy fees!

Well I am a Mauser guy, but for your situation a Blaser R8 in .416 Rem might work out. Then you could always get another barrel for it, something like .300 WM or .338WM or even 9.3x62. Blaser had a special package for around $3,500 with scope, case, etc. for the R8 with a synthetic stock.

I guess for under $2,000 the new Winchester Model 70 in .416 Rem would be a nice rifle. A new Ruger RSM in .416 Rigby if you can find one will be less than $2,000. As you said a CZ in .404 Jeffery would also work, I guess those are around $2,500.

Good hunting!

I would recommend a Heym Double in 450/400.

Scoped of course.

I'd suggest a CZ .416 Rigby or a RSM also in .416 Rigby. save your money for a good scope for it and maybe a trigger job. it will get the job done on Buff as well as plains game. It's easy to shoot and is a classic in it's own right. -Rob

A 416 Rem in the Winchester Model 70 offers a nicely balanced package. Plenty of power and accuracy. A bit better suited for DG, and in my opinion, THE best Buffalo cartridge.

I'm thinking the .416 is your way forward and since you like the CZ, I would go for the Rigby.

If you're banking on one African rifle, there's really no other choice than a bolt rifle. Both from your budgetary constraints and the range of intended game (Buff thru Plains Game), a 416 Rigby or Remington (or Ruger?), a 404 Jeffery, or perhaps even a 375 (not for Buffalo IMHO) would provide the most versatility and are available at reasonable prices. A Ruger RSM, new Win Model 70, or a CZ 550 done over by Wayne at AHR would be the ticket. A 416 in your case would be hard to beat!

Thanks for the inputs!

Which of these are reasonably easy (availability of cases, dies, bullets, cost, etc.) to reload??:

.404 Jeffery
.416 Rigby
.450/400 3"

Buying the rifle is only have the battle. Feeding it is the other!

And just why would one bother to live in the UK!!!!!!!

I'd go to see "Trigger" at the Westley Richards store in London. He'll find you a classic rifle in a real African caliber. You can at least handle a couple of dozen and see what you like best.

To tell you the truth, I'd take the 375 H&H and spend the rest of the money on trophy fees.

I'm a big 404 Jeffery and 450/400 fan, but I think on this occasion, take the 375 H&H. Ammo cheaper. It will do nicely for everything short of elephant.

Hope you have a great hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
To tell you the truth, I'd take the 375 H&H and spend the rest of the money on trophy fees.

I'm a big 404 Jeffery and 450/400 fan, but I think on this occasion, take the 375 H&H. Ammo cheaper. It will do nicely for everything short of elephant.

Hope you have a great hunt.

I'm with Rusty 100%
Not to mention it would probably please the old man to take his rifle on safari.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
And just why would one bother to live in the UK!!!!!!!

Honestly???...because my gov't pays me crazy money to be here! The day it does not pay as well to stay I'm on the first plane back to Arizona. Wide open spaces, warm sun, guns, desert off roading, bikinis...god, now I'm making myself homesick

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rusty:
To tell you the truth, I'd take the 375 H&H and spend the rest of the money on trophy fees.

I'm a big 404 Jeffery and 450/400 fan, but I think on this occasion, take the 375 H&H. Ammo cheaper. It will do nicely for everything short of elephant.

Hope you have a great hunt.

I'm with Rusty 100%
Not to mention it would probably please the old man to take his rifle on safari.[/QUOTE]

Very, very true. He would love it and I have no plans (in the next 10 years or so) for elephant so I would be okay.

But what about the synthetic stock and stainless action/barrel. This gun is perfect for cold, wet Maine winter hunting, and I know its vain, but quite possible the ugliest thing I have ever seen. How expensive would it be to give it a reasonable wood stock (ebony tip, of course!) and coat the action with something matte??

Thanks for the inputs. I really appreciate it!

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
And just why would one bother to live in the UK!!!!!!!

No earthquakes.

quote:

Originally posted by BwanaCole:

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rusty:
To tell you the truth, I'd take the 375 H&H and spend the rest of the money on trophy fees.

I'm a big 404 Jeffery and 450/400 fan, but I think on this occasion, take the 375 H&H. Ammo cheaper. It will do nicely for everything short of elephant.

Hope you have a great hunt.

I'm with Rusty 100%
Not to mention it would probably please the old man to take his rifle on safari.[/QUOTE]

Very, very true. He would love it and I have no plans (in the next 10 years or so) for elephant so I would be okay.

But what about the synthetic stock and stainless action/barrel. This gun is perfect for cold, wet Maine winter hunting, and I know its vain, but quite possible the ugliest thing I have ever seen. How expensive would it be to give it a reasonable wood stock (ebony tip, of course!) and coat the action with something matte??

Thanks for the inputs. I really appreciate it!

Its abit non traditional but look at some of Michael458's rifles in the B&M and
tbp threads- I have come to like the look of stainless in wood-its sharp sometimes-.I will probably build that way soon.

That would give you both options with the 375 and like was said above--more trophy fees-

SSR

Again, regarding the affordability, the .416 Rem is the cheapest and most powder efficient of the lot.

375 H&H will work just fine for buff. Dropped this one last week with my CZ in 375 H&H.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I would recommend a Heym Double in 450/400.

Scoped of course.

A scope on a double rifle is like putting a moo moo on a supermodel (not that Nicole Ritchie is a supermodel) ...

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1

I would get either a .375H&H, .450/400, .416 Rem Mag or .404 Jefferey

If you are going to be restricted to solids only, order some Woodleigh Hydrostatics

quote:

Originally posted by Oddbod:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
And just why would one bother to live in the UK!!!!!!!

No earthquakes.

What earthquakes, you don't notice them when blasting away your big bores to your hearts content.

quote:

Originally posted by JabaliHunter:
I would get either a .375H&H, .450/400, .416 Rem Mag or .404 Jefferey

If you are going to be restricted to solids only, order some Woodleigh Hydrostatics

I just saw a Ruger #1H in .416 Rigby advertised for 450 pounds sterling. Am having coffee with my FAO on saturday...hmmmm

Don't buy it, you don't want a single shot for DG and I've heard Ruger #1's kick like hell in big bore chamberings due to their stock design.

Two points. I shot my Buffalo with a Savage stainless with composite stock 375 H&H - one shot and he was dead and he never said a word about the rifle.

I use Ruger #1 450/400 it doesn't kick any more than any other comperable big bore caliber.

Bwana C,

Share your taste in rifles and lament your predicament in the UK. Would hate to be limited in number of rifles I could own, or number or type of rounds I could possess. Given those restrictions, however, I love doubles, but they are not that versatile.

If I could only have one rifle for everything, it would be a .416 Bolt Action, I'm partial the Rem., but it really doesnt' make much difference. With that, you are good to go -- certainly out to 200 yards -- and beyond with a bit of practice. And, it will handle anything on the planet with proper shot placement.

quote:

Originally posted by Oddbod:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
And just why would one bother to live in the UK!!!!!!!

No earthquakes.

United Kingdom
• 1979 12 26 - Carlisle, Northern England - M 4.5
• 2002 09 22 - United Kingdom - M 5.0
• 2008 02 27 - England, United Kingdom - M 4.8

quote:

United Kingdom
• 1979 12 26 - Carlisle, Northern England - M 4.5
• 2002 09 22 - United Kingdom - M 5.0
• 2008 02 27 - England, United Kingdom - M 4.8

I'm from CA originally. These are not REAL quakes. Heck, I would not even reach for my wineglass unless it was at least 6.0

I have gone through exactly the same questions but without the limitations of the number of guns!

My heart has said 450/400 for about 20 years! My wallet says a Mod 70 375 H&H or 416 Rem and my head with some nudging from my heart says build a 404 Jeffery on a Mauser action with a Lothar Walther barrel, quarter rib, rust blued with nice wood. In the mean time I am trying to find ways to import this nice Mauser Mod B in 10.75X68 that I have tracked down!

My honest suggestion is to get a Winchester Mod 70 375 H&H - a classic rifle in a classic caliber.... or use your dad's.

quote:

l

I went thru the "Which gun to buy?" dilema recently and finally settled on a new Model 70 in 416 Remington. I cannot say enough about how much I enjoy the rifle and I have a lot of lesser caliber guns to compare it with. The quality and value of the FN Winchester is fantastic.

That being said have you considered renting a gun from your outfitter? I have read where people saved a considerable amount of money to go toward trophy fees by renting. You can rent double rifles if you are like most people and want one on a DG hunt. I realize it's not the same as owning and using your own rifle but in your case the restrictions are absurd.

And I thought California was bad.

You can't go wrong with the 375, but I understand your desire to hunt with something that you'll be happy to have in pictures with you. Cost to stock it well, (unless you get a take off stock from another one) would be more than just buying a factory gun. The RSM with it's quarter rib and other integral hardware in 416 rigby would be high on my short list. With your budget you're not really in the double range and better to spend that money on the hunting.

Mod 70's are awesome, and don't need anything special once you're sure they'll work. Over there in UK maybe you can find some cool old mausers though, a model a or b in 10.75 or 404 or similar would be super sweet.

I think ammo wise the 416 rigby and 416 remington are going to be easiest on ammo in the over 40 club. Bigger than 416 isn't really necessary for what you're talking about, and other than the lott is going to get expensive to feed.

if you've shot the cz's and like the fit then it's an easy answer, and they come in every chambering you can want, and probably a few you don't. hard deal to beat.

Of course you could give all your neighbors something interesting and get a 416 ruger.

Red

I have nothing against the 375 H&H or Ruger, its a decent buffalo round just like the 9.3x62 and I have one of each and love them both..but if challanged to one DG rifle I want more soup as the lighter buff caliber are not ideal for frontal shots without solids or raking shots without solids..I also am sure the buffalo as a rule run further shot with the 375, 338, and 9.3s than they do with a 40 caliber.

I think the 450-400 is an ideal buff gun and damn fine elephant caliber with solids on elephant of course..

I also like a loaded down to 2150 fps .458 Lott, but my all time favorite DG caliber is the 40 caliber, the .416 Rem. is the best, but if, like me, your a nostlagic then get a .404, again I have both a 404 and a 416 Rem. One is as good as the other in the real world, but who on the internet lives there!

So, had a little chat with the Firearms Officer the other day...

Turns out that once I show proof I have genuine need for a large bore rifle (read=safari deposit receipt) I can apply for the rifle. If it is a .375, even though it is just a bit over the top for the job, I can also add use for large deer (such as Scottish Stag hunting) and boars. You cannot ask for the .375 JUST for stag/boar hunting, but if you already have it, you can use it with expanding ammunition. Cool! So, I can get the .375H&H for Africa and still use it here.

Now comes the good bit. I go to Africa and come back with a buff and then show pics of charging buff, elephant, etc., to the Firearms Officer and then say I NEED A BIGGER GUN! No worries, matey, just show receipt for next safari and its yours. That way I end up with the .37H&H in cabinet and a .450/400 double

Well, thats the plan anyway!

Sounds like a good plan. The .375 will kill anything that walks and is an excellent killer. You can load it with 235 grain to 350 grain bullets and the 350 Woodleigh is a very effective killer, as is the 300 grain Swift A Frame. I've taken everything from Canadian white tail to buff with the A Frame.

Then upgrade to a bigger bore if you feel it is necessary. If I were limited to just one rifle and one caliber to the exclusion of all others, it would be the .375 H&H.

Having used the 350 gr. PP and RN in the the .375, I can attest that its hard to tell much difference in them and the 400 gr. bullets in the .416 or the 450-400 all of which I have used for more than a few buffalo..By the same token the 450 gr. .416 and 404 seem to kill as good as the 458 Lott and with less blast, recoil, and trama! thus my love of the .416s.

I would vote for the 404 Jeffery. I have a 9.3x62, 375HH, 404 and 458 Lott. Out of the four, the 404 puts the most lead down range with the most acceptable recoil. I wouldn't worry too much about only being able to load and shoot solids; your PH in Africa should be able to provide you with soft points needed. I have two hunts in South Africa and both of my PH's carried "backup" ammo for whatever caliber I was shooting.