I was just reading an older thread about new big bore model 70s. I have been looking for a .375 H&H for a long time.
But The thread got me wondering about the .458 win.
I have never owned a .458 and not really planning to buy one, but is it not a standard (30,06)length round ?
Why would not it be chamberd in a standard model 70. I supose it would kick like hell, but it seems like a heavy barrel contour , a nice banded front site and sling swivel , would help with that , and it should be cheaper to prouduce than any cartridge bassed on a H&H case.
And I guess while i am wondering that, why the heck is nobody making the .375 Ruger except ruger.
I think the ruger hawkey chamberd for the 375 is really a very practicle rifle.
Not near as heavy as the RSMs and the sights on the ruger are excelent.
But I really wonder why a .458 win should be so expensive when it can built on a standard length action...tj3006

Yes 458 Wins are made on 30-06 lenght actions. The 375 Ruger is the new kid on the block, the 375 H&H is a well established round with ammo found the world over.

The .458WM. IS ...based on a H&H case...

quote:

And I guess while i am wondering that, why the heck is nobody making the .375 Ruger except ruger.
I think the ruger hawkey chamberd for the 375 is really a very practicle rifle.
Not near as heavy as the RSMs and the sights on the ruger are excelent.

A better question is WHY is Ruger not offering an Alaskan with the long action in 375H&H. Would be same weight, balance and cost with an ounce or so added for the action weight? Same sights, same stock, same finish?? Why? Who really NEEDS a new 375 ctg? New dies, new cases, for what identical ballistics in 1/4 inch shorted ctg?

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

quote:

And I guess while i am wondering that, why the heck is nobody making the .375 Ruger except ruger.
I think the ruger hawkey chamberd for the 375 is really a very practicle rifle.
Not near as heavy as the RSMs and the sights on the ruger are excelent.

A better question is WHY is Ruger not offering an Alaskan with the long action in 375H&H. Would be same weight, balance and cost with an ounce or so added for the action weight? Same sights, same stock, same finish?? Why? Who really NEEDS a new 375 ctg? New dies, new cases, for what identical ballistics in 1/4 inch shorted ctg?

Yeah, really.
And the .458 Win doesn't kick like hell. It's not bad at all. Mine weighs 8.5 pounds. You know you've shot a rifle when you let it off, but if you can shoot a .375 accurately you can shoot a .458 Win with no problems.

They really werent that much more expensive when they were produced, they've gone up a lot more than the other Winchesters since they shut the old plant.

The safari express was listed at around 750.00 in Maryland around the year 2000 (I got a 375, but there was a 458 and 416 right next to it-wish I would have snagged the 416 too), at that time a sporter LT in 30-06 was around 595.00. The safari express had sights, barrel band, recoil lug etc, which pretty much accounted for the price difference. Nothing special about it being 458.

They will probably go down if the new win plant starts making them again.

Plenty of other relatively inexpensive 458s out there. You can still find older Ruger model 77s pretty cheap.

Why so expensive?
limited Audience to buy it.

A 270/30-06/7remmag will sell 100 to 1 of a 458, even at the same price. If one makes 5%, but with 100 turns per year, one must charge FAR more of a 458 to make the same $, and still loose turns on inventory

Another option for Ruger would be the 458 Win Mag in the Alaskan. It would fit. Ruger is close with Hornady, they could coordinate with a 458 400 grain bear load.

Assuming the stock is up to the job. Stock seems hollow with only the perimeter of the recoil pad only supported by the hollow stock. I almost put my thumb threw the center of a pad the other day!

What Jeffe said plus sights fitted, barrel mounted recoil lug, different barrel contour.

"The market" is also use to the idea that in general prices for rifles, ammo and components will rise once you reach 375.

One of the reasons calibres such as 338/06 and 35 Whelen have not been a commercial success is because "the market" will only bear 30/06 type pricing but with their small volume they need higher pricing to do well.

I know the .375 ruger is the new kid on the block,and the H&H is the tried and true round.
But Balisticly the Ruger is at least the equal. And if winchester and remington would prouduce rifles and ammo for it , it would in my opinion become an emensly popular round.
I still want a .375 H&H just cause i want one.
But I have seen new ruger africans go for 700.00
not sen a good new H&H go for less than about 900.00
I also thing thta alaskan ruger in .458 would be great.
But for alaskan hunting the .375 and certainly the 416 ruger are plenty. But the .458 in that platform would be cool.
I wish ruger would make a different stock available for the alaskan.
If I were to buy a .375H&H today , I think it would be a sako 85. But in no hurry so i will see what the winchesters look like.
My gunsmith has started one too so I might see how it comes out ...tj3006

"Limited audience/market..."? Perhaps, but more likely it is/was their Corvette, and they cost more because... well, just because! This has been an irritant for me for nigh onto forty years.
There isn't a dollar difference in the cost of steel and walnut in a rifle between the 22 Hornet and the 458WM in a M70. All P64's had the same action, they only made one size.

Rich

Idaho Sharpshooter said it well.
Add some sights and a heavier barrel, and a better recoil pad.
Should add a little to the cost but not much.
Mabye 150.00 ?
...tj3006

Thomas, you could buy one of the newer Ruger "black" stocks and slap it right on one of the 375 Alaskans. That is what I just did and it turned out great. What a difference in handling and weight...and looks when I shucked that Houge stock. You will have to do some minor fitting in the barrel channel...but not much. Make sure to get a black stock from a magnum rifle so the barrel channel is the larger one.

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:

But I really wonder why a .458 win should be so expensive when it can built on a standard length action...tj3006

I think replacement cost might effect the price, not to mention supply and demand. I wish I could buy Win 70 Safari express's all day for 750. 2 years ago I bought a SE 375H&H on gunbroker for 900 but that had a break installed, nobody wanted it.
Unless the bottom really falls out, except for the distress sale I don't expect to see these guns under a 1000 bucks too soon.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Thomas, you could buy one of the newer Ruger "black" stocks and slap it right on one of the 375 Alaskans. That is what I just did and it turned out great. What a difference in handling and weight...and looks when I shucked that Houge stock. You will have to do some minor fitting in the barrel channel...but not much. Make sure to get a black stock from a magnum rifle so the barrel channel is the larger one.

You don't happen to have a pic of your rifle do you? It sounds interesting.

Woodrow,
I happen to have a stainless hawkey in .338 win. Nice shooter too.
And your point is a good one. But I think Ruger should sell the rifle with that option.
I think I would opt for the african if I end up with a .375 ruger.
My hunting partner has a .375 H&H on a enfield action.
Prety nice .
But Sako has a few vesions of the 85 in .375 H&H and i like some of them and they are about 1600 to 1700.
That ain't cheap but i like it better than a CZ or a RSM ruger...tj3006

The really great thing about a .458 Win for American use is that it is very easy to download into a deer/hog rifle - either with factory bullets or cast lead. I used to load several thousand 450grn cast bullets at 1500fps for appie PH's to use in practice. A barnes .350grn TSX at 1800 -2400fps is an awsome plains game round with manageable recoil.- and then when you do finally come to Africa to knock over a buff, you have a rifle that you are very familiar with and has had all the bugs ironed out.

The .375 Ruger has as much chance of catching on in Africa as the .375 Blaser or .370 Federal- basically nill - if any ammo maker is looking for a niche to fill try a true .400 (like the tembo) shooting a 350grn Bullet at around 2400fps (kicks like a .375 and hits like a .416...well almost ) or .44 ganyana- 450grn .429" bullets at 2325fps (and 240grn Horniday XTPs at 3000fps for vaporising baboons )

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Originally posted by Ganyana:
(and 240grn Horniday XTPs at 3000fps for vaporising baboons )

Oh what a vision I am having this very moment! Exploding Baboons!!!!!

Michael

Michael...I started off swagingXTP's down to fit in a .404- worked fine. Swaged a bunch of 300grn down for the lad who bought mt .404 and (at more moderate velocity) he uses tem for game up to kudu.

I have loaded some Sierra 300grn bullets intended for .45-70 at 3000fps from a Lott- and the lad who owns that rifle reports it is awsome on baboons.

In the Tembo you can use any .40 cal pistol bullets.

Ganyana

Yes, I suppose all those suggestions would be jam up at exploding baboons. My big problem with that is that most of the time I have my big bores along POI is for bigger heavier bullets, I have tried many combos, but never get the fast light ones even close to the same POI as the heavy bullets. But, while not as good as a big bore exploder, I built myself a baboon rifle---Win M70 slightly heavy contour 24 inch barrel, in 6.5 WSM and 120 gr bullets at 3300 fps. Adequate for sure, but would love to explode one with an exploding big bore bullet! Excellent!

Love shooting those things, love a baboon safari!

Michael

My solution on the .404 was the parker hale peep sight (on cocking piece) zeroes for 400grn bullets and leuplod scope in original qd mounts zeroed, initially for factory 300grn SP and later for 240grn XTP's.

On my mates Lott. He has iron sights for 450grn an Leupold 2-8 in QD mounts for plainsgame load (350grn at 2500fps) and an old Weaver in a spare set of rings zeroed for the 300grn baboon, 300m poacher engagement loads.

The more I learn about european genuiney QD rings the more convinced I am that you can wring sooo much more enjoyment out of one rifle.

My main hunting rifle usually wears a no magnification red dot (its faster than peep sights) but have two different Leupolds and a nightforce than can just clip in for different applications. In 4 years I have never needed to rezero a scope... (I cannot on the most commonly usedscope. I super glued the settings in place so that nobody could alter them...had an incident where I caught a tracker idly twirling the adjustment rings on a clients scope....Since it frequently isn't posssible to fire a verification shot I took a short cut to prevent it from ever happening to me.

(If you like Leupold you might say I have ruined a top of the line scope. If you are a nightforce man...then it was only a Leupold )

I found two front sight blades were the answer with the aperture sight (bridge mounted) on my 404. I have cast 350gnGC bullets at 1900fps and 2365fps that regulate on the one blade and serious 400gn soft and solid with a bead. As Ganyana said a next step would be a QD scope (possibly semi scout set up) for shots to 300yds.

Von Gruff