Initially, I was dead set on the 404 Jeff. I've always been infatuated with the 450/400 nitro, and as of a year ago, I had a 450/400 Heym sxs on it's merry way. Needless to say, my luck changed and I had to cancel the order and sell all of my big bore rifles, doubles and bolt action alike.

My luck had improved somewhat as of late, so I purchased a 9.3x62 CZ as a "working rifle." In the last couple of days, I've decided it needs a big brother, but I still can't afford a 450/400. So, I immediately considered the "poor man's" 450/400, the 404 Jeffery (although these bad boys aren't exactly cheap). a 404 Jeff in a cz would be a perfect paring for my little 9.3.

However, a friend (showbart) was quick to point out that a cz in a 416 rigby was much less expensive (even with wood upgrade), and with handloading, had superior versatility in ballistics.

Now I'm torn. I'm drawn to the Jeff b/c it's not typical and I just dig it, and I'm drawn to the Rigby for both utilitarian and economic reasons ( I don't yet handload, so I'd have to learn to get the Rigby down to the velocity of the Jeff).

My question; is there any advantage, other than "cool factor" (although the Rigby certainly has an extremely interesting history as well) of the Jeffery that I haven't mentioned? Or visa versa with the Rigby.

Also, I've heard that the fancy grade wood of the CZ is soft and easily dented. Has anyone had this problem?

Thanks to all for incite, suggetions, et al.

Personal choice both 416 and 404 cases are dirty cheap thanks to hornady brining em out what ever your heart is set on get but i suggest if you go the cz route go through ahr they slick up there actions and upgrade those rifles into really nice peices

Since when did "practial" enter into a gun purchase? If the 404J trips your trigger, then that is the answer...

Besides, the new Hornady ammunition is 400gr bullet at 2350fps.

Be happy...

Rich
Buff Killer

Madden, Take your pick, they're both good options. Reloading components are/will be available at reasonable prices and both are reportedly easy to load for, I know the Rigby is.

The only advantage, in my mind, to the Rigby is the large case capacity gives you a little more flexibility. For example, I'll be using Woodleigh 450gr. bullets in mine. I don't think they're available for the Jeff, at least not yet. There are a few more options in .416 bullets as well, from several mfgs., but the new found popularity of the Jeff may correct that issue, and I suspect it will.

Either will do the job equally well. I don't own a Jeff as of now, but it's on the continually growing list.

Pick one and have fun. By all means, buy your loading equipment, get some training, and get after it. You'll pay for the basic equipment needed with the savings from far fewer boxes of ammo than you might think. Brass aside, I can load 416 Rigby plinkers for well under $1 each. The best you can do on factory ammo is Hornady at about $4+ each. Do the math and it won't take long to convince yourself.

David

maddenwh

PM sent

maddenwh,
CZ was using 1:16.5" twist barrels on their .416 Rigby's, when I got mine. Check to see if they have modernized to 1:14" like Ruger.

CZ was using 1:10" twist McGowen barrels when I got my 404 Jeffery CZ. Right up my alley.

The CZ 404 Jeffery holds 5 down in the box, and it has perfect geometry for flawless feeding.

The CZ .416 Rigby holds 3 or 4 down in the box.
I have owned 4, still have one, the others were "parts" guns for rebarreling. They vary, about 50:50. A tight 4 down or a loose 3 down.
They do not feed as flawlessly as the 404 Jeffery does from that one-size-fits-all box.

Even the 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs use the same box as the .375 H&H in the CZ "Custom Shop" models.

That box works best with the .404 Jeffery.

The .416 Rigby CZ with the Euro hogback does have the balance and feel of an original John Rigby .416 Rigby magnum Mauser that I have handled, perfect with a 25" muzzle that is about .666" to .670".
CZ got that part right.
Then they blew it with the Fat American stock.
The synthetic American-style stock restores the balance to perfection.

Just food for thought.

You can buy a synthetic stock for the CZ 550 Magnum by Bell&Carlson, with full aluminum bedding block,
from CZ USA for $425.

If I wanted another 404 Jeffery besides the M70 and CZ that I have,
I would buy a used CZ 550 Magnum .375 H&H, common and cheap, and rebarrel it to 404 Jeffery. Restock it to perfection later. Whatever grade and shape of wood, laminate, or synthetic that turns your crank.

The synthetic is a drop in for the .375 H&H through .458 Lott CZ 550 Magnum Safari rifles, all use the same barrel contour. No crossbolting needed.

Of course you can get the .416 Rigby ready to go.
And ready to get gunsmithed too.
Fancy American-style stock in walnut with crossbolts or,
synthetic stock that is same comb profile as American, but not as fat, a good replacement for the old hogback Euro stock.

The 404 Jeffery with the McGowen barrel from CZ or barreled yourself is very flexible, accurate from 2150 to +2400fps with 400-grainers. Safe and easy. RL-15 or Varget with filler on the low end or a case full for the high end.
Or just use H4831 to slow it down accurately.

The .416 Rigby may not be as accurate when slowed down to 2150 fps with 400-grainers, and will have a bit more recoil at the top end due the larger powder charges required.

Your call.

RIP- wow; that's really the answer I was looking for. Thanks for the elaboration, and I mean, elaboration. obviously, you're not a golfer...

Thanks again for the info. You may have just convinced me to roll with the 404, but rebarreling the 375 sounds intriguing as well. My first thoughts on the Jeff were that it was a bit on the bulky/heavy side, but I imagine rebarreling the H&H solves that conundrum.

Allez avec Dieux tous les jours.

ALso, I'm still curious as to whether anyone has any complaints about the integrity of the fancy grade wood on the CZ's, although I guess RIP could have answered that and I missed it all together.

A close friend who lives overseas owns a CZ Safari Classics .375, and I'm holding it for him now. It has very nice wood, and I don't think it's particularly soft. However, there are some blemishes in the finish around the cross-bolts--strangely sloppy workmanship on a gun that's otherwise great. For $3,000, it's a very nice gun, and I've been thinking of buying one in .404. For what it's worth, the gun feels and looks much better than a standard .375 American Safari CZ 550 I handled a few weeks ago. I've never handled the standard gun with the wood upgrade, though, so I can't comment on that.

In either chambering, Norma's African PH factory ammo w/ 450 gr Woodleigh bullets at 2,150 fps looks really great on paper, but perhaps someone on here will shoot down that notion.

The 404 will do what the Rigby will do in a slimmer, trimmer rifle.

No debate: 404 is your answer.

Chris,

Concise and rational as usual. Let me know asap if you have one you're trying to sell.

Let me know if you are going to be in the Houston area. You are welcome to come to my range and shoot my 404 Jeffery all you want!

maddenwh,
Yes I meant 1:10" twist is what CZ put on the 404 Jeffery I have, clarified above.

I have 2 of the fancy "Safari Classic" CZ's (404 and 505), the other dozen I have are standard grade.

The fancy stocks are American Black Walnut, right?
I have not found them to be soft.
They are "pretty."
If you go with wood, just make sure it is properly crossbolted and glass bedded.

The CZ 404 Jeffery can be made up to be only 1/2 pound heavier than the opened-up standard Mauser 98.

You can make a CZ plenty light and handy and it is stronger and has a 6-shot capacity compared to the 4-shot capacity of the standard M98.

The extra length and depth of the CZ 404 box is an advantage. It is perfect for a .404 Jeffery.

It is the best functioning rifle CZ ever made, least likely to give a problem, as long as you don't get the rare bad barrel ... which CZ should stand good for if it happened ... or barrel your own.

The initial post stated the advantage of the 404 was the factory ammo at lower power of 450/400 level. Next we get a reply that the actual advantage of the 404 was hopped up factory load (equall to ribgy) from the only reasonable cost vendor, Hornady.

Cannot have it both way. The initial premise was no hand loading & mild loads. I am really upset with the Hornady decision to magnumize the 404. I wonder who gave then that idea? Bigger is better once agian! How many 416 clones do we need?

In the latest CZ catalog, was offered a lighter neatly trim down stock as on option. Seems ideal for a 404. Anyone see on of those yet? The Ruger Alaskan might be another ideal, dream on..... (with origional load) another dream....

Any extra weight of the the CZ 550 Magnum 404 Jeffery versus the standard action opened up: No more than 1/2 pound.
And it is in the action, right between your hands, and adds up to a great balance when the stock and barrel are properly matched.
Lively, not a fence post.

Extra length of the rifle: Less than 1/4 inch.

Extra depth of the box: It adds two extra cartridges down, 5 instead of 3.

400-grainers at 2350 fps from Hornady?
The 404 Jeffery is about the most trouble free cartridge there is to reload, anyone who owns one will want to do it.
Easy to get 2150 fps to +2400 fps with 400-grainers.
Much better safety margins and perfect function in the CZ 550 Magnum, than a standard M98.

Original Jeffery Mausers were offered in the Square-bridged Magnum Mauser, soon as they were available.

The current 404 Jeffery was born in 1905.
There is no older and more successful bolt action DGR.

I have never heard of anyone having a misfire or loading problems due to the 8.5-degree long-sloped but broad 404 Jeffery shoulder.

The .416 Rigby takes just a little more care due to the hideous 45-degree shoulder, harder for brass makers to form too.

Remember that Lothar Walther barrels may be on the lower side of .423" groove diameter. One has been slugged at .4226" by a well known bullet maker.
Krieger advertized a .424" barrel last time I looked.
My McGowen barrel slugged closer to .424" than .423", it was just under .424".

So,
.424" barrels will give lower velocities and lower pressures than .423" grooved barrels, for the same powder burned.

The 404J is the one cartridge / rifle combo that is highest on my list.
As stated above, you can choose your poison and load it to what velocity you want.
With modern bullets (Swifts / X's) @ 2350 FPS you get a 250 yard plains game gun if the opportunity arrises. Like a 416 Rem, you can get 4-5 down in the magazine.
All this stated above and cheap reloading components with Hornady in the business.
I am saving for my future Empire in a 404J.

EZ

I had never reloaded prior to buying my CZ 404 Jeffery. I found that it was easy. I quickly found a load that pushed a 400 gr woodleigh to 2185 fps and shot to minute of buffalo and have been happy with it. Should I go for Elephant I may try to get another 100 or so fps, but the std ballistics sure worked on buffalo. The recoil is just enough less than the 416 to make it easier to shoot. The 416 rigby is a fine caliber, but I'm happy with the 404J.

EIther is a good choice. Having a M70 in 404j, I am obviously bias. In the field, either will perform the same on game. You can handload the 404j to duplicate 416R vel. with the accompanied recoil, or just shoot it as it's designed & have a comfortable shooting rifle that will kill well from impala to buffalo & beyond. With the CZ holding one add'l. round & slightly better feeding, now that Hornady is making ammo, brass & bullets, it's an easy decision to me.

And if you want to just have fun, the single barrel Ruger #1 is available in .450-400 NE at a relatively modest price too. Ruger entrapped me into it, because years ago I promised myself I would buy the first "cheap" .450-400 NE to cross my path, feeling safe that would never happen because all the .450-400 I had ever seen were doubles, but Ruger did me in! Now, with Hornaday turning out the components there is no problem to enjoying the boom of the old .450-400 NE, but I don't know if I really want to face a Buff with a single shot rifle! Buy what makes you happy!
LLS

Any of the classic magazine cartridges .416 Rigby, .404 Jeffery, .425 Westley Richards, .505 Gibbs, and .500 Jeffery/12.7x70 Schuler would make a nice addition to your 9.3x62. The .425 WR was the first being introduced around 1909 and followed by the .404 Jeffery introduced around 1910. The settlers in German East Africa had a need for a "big brother" to their 9.3x62 so the German firm Schuler engineered the 12.7x70 Schuler (.500 Schuler Jumbo/.500 Jeffery) to meet their needs. In that regard the 12.7x70 would be historically the perfect mate to your 9.3x62.

To your original post, the .416 Rigby is a better choice for you because of the much better factory ballistics of the .416 Riby(400 gr bullet @ 2400 fps for 5000 ft-lbs energy) compared to the .404 Jeffery(400 gr bullet @ 2125 fps for 4000 ft-lbs energy). The 9.3x62 generates nearly 4000 ft-lbs of energy so the .404 Jeffery isn't a real step up in this regard. Also, the .416 Rigby is a standard production rifle costing far less than CZ Safari Classics.

I smell a Bullwhiff. Bad poop again!

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Let me know if you are going to be in the Houston area. You are welcome to come to my range and shoot my 404 Jeffery all you want!

I was living in Houston/MD ANderson until December, but wasn't in much condition to shoot big bore rifles. Had something called a pick line in my right arm and shoulder that wouldn't have handled recoil too well. I certainly do appreciate the invite. I do make it back down every two months for a good "honeymoon" visit back to the hospital, but other than those pleasure cruises, I do most of my shooting in Austin Now.

RIP-

I appreciate the additional data, and as I stated before, I suspect I'll go ahead with the 404J. However, I am considering stepping it up a bit and going with a Heym 450/400 (I've had a romance with that cal and those rifles for a while now), but I'm not sure I have the patience to wait for one of those. Also, I'm not sure I'm in an economically liberal mood right now either. You've mentioned making the 404 lighter weight; I assume you mean restocking it with a synthetic and shortening the barrel. I take no issue with shortening the barrel, but as I said earlier, I am shallow enough to enjoy the aesthetic of a purdy wooden rifle. You mentioned barrels, is the stock barrel with the 1-10 twist up to par with the standard of the rest of the rifle?

I want to thank all of those that have contributed opinions, questions, and otherwise. Thanks again folks. I never want for opinions on this forum.

Even if you are in no condition to shoot, drop me an email and we can at least do lunch with some buddies and talk about big bores and doubles! We are always looking for an excuse to get together. rkmojo@aol.com

Rusty is a good man! Even if he wasn't too thrilled about shooting my 550 Gibbs.

Rusty,

is there any serious talk about a shoot this fall?

Rich
Buff Killer

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Rusty is a good man! Even if he wasn't too thrilled about shooting my 550 Gibbs.

Rusty,

is there any serious talk about a shoot this fall?

Rich
Buff Killer

Yep - Rusty IS a good man .. and there's talk

quote:

To your original post, the .416 Rigby is a better choice for you because of the much better factory ballistics of the .416 Riby(400 gr bullet @ 2400 fps for 5000 ft-lbs energy) compared to the .404 Jeffery(400 gr bullet @ 2125 fps for 4000 ft-lbs energy). The 9.3x62 generates nearly 4000 ft-lbs of energy so the .404 Jeffery isn't a real step up in this regard. Also, the .416 Rigby is a standard production rifle costing far less than CZ Safari Classics.

Really? The new Hornady ammo is loaded to 2300fps, so let's compare apples to apples. To say that a 400gr bullet @ 2300fps i snot a step up from a smaller diameter 286gr bullet @ 2500fps is telling me something about your experience w/ heavy rifles. That is so close to factory 416rigby as to fall w/ lot to lot vel. deviations. SO again, in the field, there is little practical diff. There are more 416 bullets avaialble to the reloader, but enough in 404j to keep even the most finicky hunter happy.

Maddenwh,
The Flawless 404 Jeffery of 1905 is indeed the first and best bolt action DGR.
This is my conclusion from decades of study and shooting, including shooting of bull with both, on two continents.

The stock barrel on my CZ Safari Classic is 25" long with muzzle diameter of .666"!
This is a McGowen 1:10" twist that has the integral rear sight island and secondary recoil lug machined from the same donut on the barrel,
just like the standard CZ 550 Magnum Safari rifles, in .375, .416, and .458 calibers.
.375 through .458 all use the same barrel contour.

This contour is perfect for the .416 and .423.

The weight of my 404 Jeffery CZ 550 Magnum Safari Classic is exactly 9.5 pounds, bare/empty/dry/naked.

With the purty but phat American walnut stock, it is slightly butt heavy at 9.5 lbs.
It balances a mere 1/2" rearward of the center of the front action screw.

That walnut stock with the steel F-block in place in the forearm weighs 3 pounds.

If you put the Flawless 404 Jeffery barreled action (6.5 pounds) into the sexy-slim-straight-combed-American-style
2.5 pound synthetic stock offered by CZ (from Bell&Carlson with full aluminum bedding block):

Voila! 9.0 pound dry weight Flawless 404 Jeffery!

Perfect!

Original W. W. Jeffery rifles chambered in Flawless 404 Jeffery had 24" barrels.

I would never want one shorter than 24" barrel.

I'm a doctor, not a physicist!
Bones in Star Trek 2009

You can reload a 416 Rigby with 400 gr bullets to +2500 FPS. The max loading of the 404J (2400 fps) lags by about 100-150 fps however from all I have read on this forum. a 400 gr bullet out of a 416 /423 at 2400 FPS will about out penetrate any hunting cartridge available. It would appear that from a pure diverse perspective a 416 Rem, 404J or 416 Rigby are probably the best all around rifles to carry in Africa where plains and dangerous game may be taken. They will all shoot with little hold over out to 250 yards and all stop a charge at close range (according to experienced folks on this forum).
I do like the fact that the Rem and the Jeff can be made in a slimmer rifle and carry a extra cartridge in the magazine without such a deep drop.
I doubt what is on the receiving end would know the difference what they were hit with between these.
I would pick one with a rifle that fits you best and you have confidence in.
I have a custom Mod 70 in 416 Rem & I would like a 404J in the future. Not sure why? I think I just would like an Empire and the cartridge would be the 404J.

EZ

The Ruger RSM in .416 Rigby is also about as perfect as you can find in a factory rifle straight out of the box.
Ditto the Winchester .416 Remington M70 Classic.
Only the Flawless 404 Jeffery has the perfect cartridge, however.

The Ruger .416 Rigby, Third Generation RSM mind you, has a .750" muzzle diameter and 23" barrel length.
The magazine box of the Ruger RSM is shallow and wide, and a perfect fit for the .416 Rigby.

It too weighs 9.5 pounds dry.

The bedding system is not the best for stock-cracking resistance in the factory Ruger RSM.
However it has the best accuracy potential of all the big bores.
If properly glass bedded with pillars (good luck with the 45-degree front pillar),
the recoil plate in the forearm bedded too,
and given a hidden crossbolt/allthread-pin added between the magazine well and trigger well,
and tang releived,
... then it will be accurate and crack resistant.

After all is done to perfect the factory models:
1. Flawless 404 Jeffery CZ 550 Magnum (9.500 lbs. in walnut with 25" barrel, .666" muzzle diameter) -- 5 rounds in box
2. Or .416 Rigby Ruger RSM (9.500 lbs in walnut with 23" barrel, .750" muzzle diameter) -- 3 rounds in box
3. Or .416 Remington Winchester M70 Classic (9.125 lbs in walnut with 24" barrel, .715" muzzle diameter) -- 3 rounds in box

These are the easiest and best-buy DGRs out there.
The Winchester is the lightest and slimmest out of the box.

If you cut the stock CZ "Flawless 404 Jeffery" off at 24",
the muzzle diameter is .678".

If you cut the stock CZ off at 23" (same length as the Ruger RSM) the muzzle diameter is about .695".

I have heard of one member here who got a bad CZ barrel on his CZ otherwise-Flawless 404 Jeffery rifle.

He returned it for a refund.

IIRC correctly his rifle would not shoot the Barnes TSX bullets accurately, they keyholed.

All the TSX bullets I have measured are are under-sized by 0.0010" to 0.0015".

If a rare bad barrel is over-sized, the Barnes TSX bullet would be the bullet to have problems.

I'm a doctor, not a physicist!
Bones in Star Trek 2009

Saw a super mint .404 Jeff Ruger #1 at the gun show saturday for $950. Only 364 made by my research. Wanted it bad but alas no cash miles are down for this poor trucker. I dreamed of it for the last week!!!!

quote:

After all is done to perfect the factory models:
1. Flawless 404 Jeffery CZ 550 Magnum (9.500 lbs. in walnut with 25" barrel, .666" muzzle diameter) -- 5 rounds in box
2. Or .416 Rigby Ruger RSM (9.500 lbs in walnut with 23" barrel, .750" muzzle diameter) -- 3 rounds in box
3. Or .416 Remington Winchester M70 Classic (9.125 lbs in walnut with 24" barrel, .715" muzzle diameter) -- 3 rounds in box

Had a remy 416 remy in said state... dug the rifle and the cal., but I had to sell all but my "working" rifles to pay for chemo. Really didn't end up liking chemo much; should have kept the rifle.

Interesting you say this about the Remy, as I've heard many bitch about big bore remys. Mine was light weight smooth, balanced, and shot as straight as I could shoot it. It also had a great aesthetic... real character in the wooden stock.

I'm hoping to replace it and all it could have been for me with a cz 404J. Scope; no scope; QD mount, what's your poison? Think I'd go Leupold 1.5x5 with quick detach(simply b/c I don't have enough big bores to go both ways, so splitting the difference betwixt open sighted and scoped works for me).

I'll be shopping, and hopefully purchasing one next week. I will miss my remy though... got lucky and ran across that one in stock at Cabelas.

Didn't hear you mention anything about Winnys? A biased, or a legit criticism you haven't mentioned here? Maybe I shouldn't ask...

Everyone can have a good or bad experience with a gun manufacturer. I have Rugers that will shoot straight and others that will not.
I have had probably a dozen win model 70's over the years: Pre 64's, push feed featherweights and post 64 control round feed actions. I have only had one that would not shoot straight and that was a push feed featherweight 7X57 and with some of the feedback I received on this forum, we got that rifle on track.
I simply have to fidget with all my rifles. With a model 70, the first thing I will do is adjust the trigger to 2 lbs with no over travel. That takes me about 5 minutes; Then tpically have the action glassed and barrel floated. Generally remove the factory claw and install a "Williams" billet claw ( do not know if this is necesary but I do it on suggestion) I never broke a factory claw). On some guns (big rifles) I have the action polished and made to feed flawlessly.
Sometimes I have the safety spring replaced with a unit not quite as stiff. I like the release of my safety quiet!
The same care AHR puts into a CZ should be considered on a Mod 70 to make a "fine" weapon.

Not often mentioned are the old Oregon Kimbers; I have two; a 7mmmag and a 375 H&H. Both are flawlessly inletted and the actions are butter and THEY SHOOT! At least mine do!
They are much better than the current Kimbers and they are not that expensive. The have very nice slim stocks.
They made some in 416 Rigby; I would not mind looking for a deal on one. Nice action!

EZ

I was referring to the Winchester M70 Classic in .416 RemMag.
Never saw one with a slick barrel.

My idea of perfection on the barrel accessories for any hunting rifle?

Banded front sight with push-button-removable-securable hood to protect a big gold patridge/post. Hood cutouts are nice too.

No barrel-mounted rear sight needed, or a fold down is permissable just to get it out of the way for peep use.
A flattopped-square-notch rear to go with the gold post if you must.

No barrel-band sling base. Sling base should go on the tip of the forearm.

A barrel-mounted secondary recoil lug is desirable for rifles of greater than 404 Jeffery or .416 Rigby with wood stocks.

Rear sight is an aperature with screw-in peep. Ghost ring or small peep as needed, mounted on the rear bridge, removable for scope use.

Scope everything and only go to iron sights when scope goes tits up. Have a backup scope in pre-zeroed rings.

Just my preferences.

quote:

I was referring to the Winchester M70 Classic in .416 RemMag.
Never saw one with a slick barrel.

My mistake... misread it.

Open sights work if one is 27 years-old and has 20/20 vision or better (shooting within 100 yards). I'm 27, but I don't have 20/20 vision. Thus, the QD mounts.

When u say scopes should always be used, I assume you're just referencing bolt action rifles... or are you?

When I say "smooth," I wasn't referring to the barrel. I meant the action was smooth. Guess I left out a comma and an explanation of the obvious.

Yep,
Scope a bolt action.
Who cares about double rifles? Well, they are just toys for big boys, and they sure are uglied up by a scope.

Hold on thar Good Missooora doctor........there are some beautiful lines on some bolt rifles that should not be scoped and the .500/.416 double definitely deserves a scope and not "uglied" in any way shape or form by a scope.

I'm glad you're not a physicist.

Missouri, Kentucky, whatever.
Western Kentucky and eastern Missouri do border at the Mississippi River, and do share the same seasonal pollen aeroallergen belt, the worst in the nation.
Close enough.
I sure am glad I do not suffer from hayfever in the least. I am perfectly adapted to breathing that pollen.

I don't understand all that physics stuff but damn glad everything is ok, i.e. strong as a Missouri mule, i.e. strong as a buffalo bull.