What is it about the belt on many magnum cartridges that seems to upset so many people??

I don't know.
I was ecstatic when I read that the 'original', H&H, was coming out with more of their own; especially after a few noted gunwriters sounded the crystal ball death knell on them...

OOPS.

This is reason alone for me to celebrate by getting that .375 H&H I've been raving about!

It's mostly due to an over-active set of imaginations that have been fueled by certain gunwriters who are mostly trying to sell new concepts - and thus new products - for various manufacturers who are trying to desperately compete in a saturated marketplace. You may also call it 'mental gymnastics' for want of a better term, or 'Chicken Little alarums', or something like that........

All I can say is, I've been shooting belted magnums and hunting extensively with such cartridges for over twenty-five years, and if there's any practical drawback to those gawdawful belts, I've yet to discover it.

One of my friends has won some pretty incredible hunting awards, and since about 1952 he's hunted almost exclusively with the .300 Weatherby cartridge, complete with its useless, archaic, problematic belted case. He's taken almost all of the world's big game with that cartridge, and he owns a trophy room that's three stories tall, and must be over 5,000 sq. ft. in size. I haven't heard him complain about any problems associted with the .300 Wby's belted case, nor does it appear as though that belt's gotten in the way of business for him any more than it has for me.

I think I'll keep on hunting with belted cartridges. They suit me........

AD

allen day,

quote:

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It's mostly due to an over-active set of imaginations that have been fueled by certain gunwriters who are mostly trying to sell new concepts - and thus new products - for various manufacturers who are trying to desperately compete in a saturated marketplace. You may also call it 'mental gymnastics' for want of a better term, or 'Chicken Little alarums', or something like that........

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Man do I wish I had said that. Well said and very true. I've been banging away with belted magnums for over 40 years(1962) with everything from .224 Weatherby to .375 H&H/Weatherby and about everything in between and have yet to have one hang up. Like you I'm keeping my belted magnums. Lawdog

Case life is shorter on belted cartridges due to the fact that the shoulder dimension is far more open than on rimless cartridges. Thus the first shot results in web that is strained and thinned. It's all right there in the cartrige and chamber drawings.

None of the great designers used belted cartridges. Not Mauser, Springfield, Browning nor Kalisnakov.

Due to the circumstances of history most of the work of Newton and later european designers did not survive.

The H&H cartridges had belts for a reason, as do the .458 straight cases.

Everything else is marketing. 50 years ago it was just another gimmick by the big companies to get folks to buy new rifles. They were afraid we wouldn't purchase their new products unless it had the words "belted" and "magnum" in their names. Now they are pulling the same trick with "ultra" and "short magnum."

There are plenty of tradional cartidges still around for purists, and there are plenty of belted cases & magnums for those who prefer them. They both get the job done by putting a bullet down field. To each his own.

Personally, I consider 1924 to be the turning point. There were more than enough fine cartridges to take any game on earth. Manufactures should have been concentrating on producing finer rifles. Instead they have been taking the easy way out and just changing the shape of the chamber every few years, to attract new buyers.

The belt is the "unnecessary gimmic." A belted case headspaces on the belt. This is inferior to headspacing on the shoulder. Location of the belt will vary by manufacturer. Even if there were no variance, who wants to line their bullet up with the rear end of the case? The RUM line of cartriges (and many others) headspaces on the shoulder and utilizes the entire case diameter for containing powder. I like powder more than a brass ring. JMHO.

I disagree on the shorter case life. the case life on my .338 win. is no different than any of my other rifles. I had a 7x57 that had much shorter case life. If you necksize your brass, you should have no problems.

Case life on a belted magnum is no shorter than any other round. Anyone that experiences shorter case life with them is not reloading them properly. The fix for that is to learn how to reload, not to avoid belted cases.

I agree that belts are unnecessary on most cartridges. However, they don't hurt anything either so the constant critism is unfounded. The original purpose of the belt on holland & holland's cartridge was to allow positive headspacing while at the same time having a generous amount of space between the case shoulder and the chamber which would allow some dirt and grime to get into the chamber and still have the rifle function. In that regard belted cases do offer an advantage over standard cases that headspace on the shoulder.

You've got to be very, very careful when loading the belted magnums into any magazine. You need to remember that the pointed ends go towards the muzzle.

Oh, wow...I thought the belts were there to keep the cartridges from falling out between your fingers when you hold them like the Double Gun guys!
Silly ME.

The other day I had in my hands one of those new short fat short magnum cartridges. Just like the Ultra-Nonsense cartridges, they don't bring anything else to the table that I can't do with my archaic belted magnums. jorge

Damn, D'Arcy, I fell out of the chair. Nice post.

So, what do I do with those truncated cone monometal solids I have been shooting in a Lott? They do not have a pointy end. No wonder I have been having misfires. Guess I will have to paint the bullet end red.

The feeding problems with belted cartridges is another perpetuated myth. You don't know the meaning of the word "smooth" until you cycle a mauser action in 300 H&H. The magazine stacking problems come with RIMMED cartridges. jorge

Straighter cases headspace best on a belt.
And if you don't want so called wasted space,
that belt might take up, go bigger diameter;
like the followng.Ed

I love all the un-belted 404s I have owned...I cannot imagine not owning a 375 H&H or 416 Rem, but my 9.3x62 doesn't have a belt....

Soon the belt will go away and be replaced by non belted rounds of modern design, then in another 10 years some brilliant gunsmith will start building rifles in the New belted magnum cases and it will once again rule the gunworld...the circle goes unbroken guided by the hype of the bean counters...

I like one as well as the other btw....

ED and I LIKE BELTED cartridges. so did dummies like H&H . They headspace just fine. There is no real difference in accuracy( How many 1000 yrd matches are still being won with 300 H&h derivatives.. The belted cases last just as long as non-belted cases. Don't believe all the bS you read.-Rob

I see that there's still plenty of disinformation floating around on this subject to last for another generation or so, at least.

Any time you encounter a rifle that does not feed belted cartridges well, you can be sure that the rifle was not built properly to begin with. Unless a custom gunmaker or manufacturer is using a magazine box and follower that are correctly dimensioned for the cartridge at hand, you can count on sluggish and/or disfunctional feeding every time.

How many times have you seen so-called custom 7mm Rem. Mags., .338s, etc., that were built on opened-up .30-06 actions with nothing more done to the action that open the feed rails and bolt face, plus alter the extractor - yet the original magazine box and follower that were correctly designed for the .30-06 (not the 7mm Rem., for example) remains. This is two-bit, lazy, ignorant riflemaking at its worst, and has helped give belted rounds a skewed reputation as sometimes problematic feeders. This is not a cartridge problem - it's a rifle problem.

To prove the point, pick up a pre-64 Model 70 in .300 H&H or .375 H&H and test the feeding for yourself. If you have you know that these rifles feed with uncanny, effortless sureness and smoothness. This is no accident, but a carefully calculated design feature in that Winchester engineered the magazine boxes for the exact correct stack angle required for those two H&H cartridges (Paul Mauser's way), and as further proof, these rifles hold four-down instead of the conventional three, and no, the boxes are no deeper. Winchester did NOT follow the same proceedure (cost-cutting was in full swing by this time) when the .458, .338, .264, etc., were introduced, and feeding is not as smooth or sure with these cartridges.

AD

Allen is right.If the cases are not stacked right
in a mag they don't feed for crap.One 30-06
size doesn't fit all.You put a stack of Rummies
or Wussams in a too narrow box and they won't feed
either.

Now the reason Rob really likes belted, is the
600OK...Think of it; He has gotten over 2250 fps
with 900gr bullet, using turned brass. TURNED
BRASS BELTED CASES,THAT FALL OUT AFTER FIRING!!!
Running about 36-38,000 psi!!
As long as belt head space dimensions are properly built,on a straight case, they last it seems like forever.My 458HE running 40,000 psi
loads last a hundred reloadings or more.Ed.

The best reason for a belt is that it does headspace on the belt.

A couple members here have had real horror stories trying to build 404's, and getting them to headspace properly.

Bad gunsmiths are a good reason to go with a belted case.

s

When you actually work with belted cartridge designs you quickly come to learn the advantages. Too many people simply read the BS of the gun writers and project these same totally baseless criticisims. The fact is that belted cartridges work, work well and THEIR ONLY fault IMHO lies in the fact that they require a larger magazine box than an equivalent unbelted cartridge. I've measures a number of factory unbelted cartridges and the variation in the shoulder to base dimension (WHICH ESTABLISHES THE INDIVIDUAL CARTRIDGE HEADSPACE) varies as much or more than similar belted cartridges. YOU THINK RIMMED CARTRIDGES ARE UNIFORM, MEASURE SOME. In fact some rimmed cases vary by .010 or more.
Fact is there is absolutely nothing wrong with belted cartridges. Section one sometime and find out how well they are constructed. H&H knew what they were doing.-Rob

Short case life in belted cartridges came from inferior brass in the early days of the belt...It has since been corrected and no longer exists unless one does not know how to reload belted cases, and thus overworks the brass..I get about 10 to 15 loading in my belted cases depending on how I load them..On full max loads I would probably get 7 or 8 loading before I tossed them...but I don't load my big bores near max...My 375 scoots out at about 2500 and my 416 about 2300 to 2400...Less recoil and kills just as well on what I use them for...

WARNING:

To reloaders who have been reading this thread. The belted magnums should not be reloaded with a casual approach as they have a built in design flaw that weakens the web of the case. It's just that the shoulder dimension in the chamber of a belted cartridge is open on the plus side and rimless cartridges are not. Therefore if you size a belted case with the die set to the shell holder you may set the shoulder on the case back with each FL sizing and therefore weaken the web rapidly and suffer a head separation.

Of course this can happen with any case design however the belted cartridges are worse in this respect.

For someone to say that they never had a problem is not enough information as to their circumstances.

The new Sierra manual mentions this. On the 300 Winchester Magnum page they write "As with any belted magnum care must be taken to avoid resizing the case anymore than necessary for smooth chambering. This will enhance both accuracy and case life."

While I try to avoid belted cartridges I like powerful ones and thus I currently own four rifles so chambered. I reload them with extra care and therefore they give reasonable case life and are accurate.

The belted case has it's purpose. In life one can ask yourself when your offered a benefit as to what your giving up? Without the belted design we would not have the 458 Winchester for instance unless it headspaced on the rim like the .30 carbine or 45 auto but then it could not be crimped!

So take extra care in setting the FL reloading die on belted cartridges and check each one with a feeler gage for a weak web.

Thank you for reading this and taking the time to understand.

Savage99-Half the folks I know who reload non-belted case have over length chambers and have to
set sizing die back a little to keep from stretching web, if they want good case life.One is a 50 cal.If resizer isn't set back, that 50 will only load twice safely.Ed.

arty,

quote:

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That is true with all cartridges.
cartridge failure with a belt is not the belts fault. it is the reloaders fault for not sizing the brass properly.

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So very true. Lawdog

"The well-dressed cartridge wears a belt." Don't remember where I saw it, but it fits here.

Savage99- You really ought to shoot and reload more and post less. Savage99 the expert on all things gun related speaks! NOT!.
What do you think happens to a non-belted case when you set the shoulder back and then fire it? Of course no one here could possibly know anything about properly adjusting dies for belted cartridges. Why bother when Savage99 can instruct us!
Do you really think that belted cases are more prone to head separations? If so you really have never reloaded for them have you? TROLL ALERT! BS meter on tilt!-Rob

Rob,

Did you read the informative post by System 98 on the thread about the Mauser that was misfiring? He mentioned some historic fact about various headspace standards.

I enjoy posting here so that I can express what I know and also I like reading posts here and learning from others.

In the past, there were some chambers cut for the belted magnums that were a little on the "long" side in head-to-shoulder dimension. This permitted cases to stretch a bit too much oon firing, then people set the shoulders back when full-length sizing, and the cycle was repeated, a lot like has happened with the .303 British in the SMLE! The results were early case head separations, which were blamed on the fact that these cartridges were supposedly headspaced on the belt. Thus a lot of unhappy campers. There is no reason why a chamber for a belted case can't be cut right, so the case headspaces on the shoulder, eliminating this problem.

I have heard that the .300 H&H and .375 H&H have such a steep taper and such a shallow shoulder that they MUST headspace on the belt. In my experience, this is not true! There have been a few case designs that suffered from such a failing, but they weren't belted! The two that come to mind most readily here are the .400 Whelen and the old .35 Remington. Belted cases are just as good as any design, if the gunsmithing is first-rate. However, belts are NOT NECESSARY, either.

What I would like to know is how many belted cartridges has Savage 99 ever owned and/or reloaded for? Lawdog

500grains--And doing that to any case, belted or not is crazy.I seen 50 cal from long chambered
machineguns that thinned so much on the first
firing, that if reloaded
and fired in same gun they'd separate on that second shot.I have seen cases fired in guns with setback breeches, that would have separated on
a second reload in same gun. Showed one guy how to back off die and have tight headspace and load a dozen times.Ed.

Hey, all my BB guns are single shot and thus rimmed, may I offer myself as an impartial witness.

Observation 1: Belt exists for purpose of headspacing. The advantage is that you have greater reliability in the bush with a generously cut chamber yet retains proper headspacing.

Observation 2: Belted cases from rifles with chambers designed to take advantage of the advantage of belted ammo tends to have a short life when full-length sized. Some have been known to grumble of inferiority while not shooting DG.

Observation 3: Some have been known to buy custom guns with tight chambers and neck size all their ammo so case life is infinite; with either belted or rimmless (or rimmed, for all it matters) cases. They have great results at the range and in the field. They are perfectly happy with whatever cartridge works for them regardless of such small matters like the presence of a belt. They rarely have a need for "ultimate" reliablility and as a result the presence or absence of a belt is superfluous.

Observation 4: If one is careful sizing cases on practice ammo, even on "sloppy" chambers, one can get good case life. And if the few field loads (at least DG) that will be loaded are full-length sized with new brass, then one may take advantage of the purpose of the belt whenever they may find the need.

Of course, I am only a humble shooter of the single shot BB and have little sway in this arena. As for the issue of magazine fed guns, I cannot comment on the advantage or disadvantage of belted ammo therein; except that, were it not for the magazine-fed bolt gun, there would be no need for the belt and we would all be shooting rimmed.

[ 08-15-2003, 08:42: Message edited by: 45LCshooter ]

I will step in and kick the 'gators in the mud in this post.

Belted cases do not have a build in design flaw.

I have chambered many, many belted chambers and fired thousands of belted rounds and reloaded thousands.

The problem is the &^%$# factory chambers are too big, and, for all you would be gun plumbers, SAAMI reamers are way to big for the brass. So, gents, when you fire that belted case, you stretch the brass to fit the chamber. Resize and reload a time or two, and the stretched brass fails above the belt, where the chamber in the rifle is WHAT? Too big.

Throw in the reamer dimensional variations and you can wind up with a huge factory chamber. Gun Manufacturers have the reamers ground oversize when new, so they can stand a grind or two for resharpening, cuts down on tooling costs.

You can learn a lot by simply measuring new cases and measuring the diameter of the chamber just ahead of the belt.

I have my reamers for belted cartridges ground to my specs. No stretching and no failure of the case above the belt.

Most folks sticking belted reamers in barrels do not understand the belt thickness relationship of the case to the Go Gauge and the proper way to ream the chamber. I am reaming a 416 Rem chamber now, some of you gents would learn a lot if you could watch over my shoulder.

I posted info about headspace, belted cases, chambering, etc, several months ago, I am trying to find this post now and bring it back up. It explains some of the finer points of successful chambering of belted cartridges.

You have two problems with most belted chambers: Chamber is too big, as mentioned above, and the headspace on the belt is excessive.

There is a difference, however, in the proper way to set up a DGR belted chamber and the proper way to set up a chamber for a match rifle.

Can't learn all this stuff in books, so where does it come from? Trial and error and mistakes.
Some call this experience, but it really is just a walk down the rocky road.

One thing many overlook is the that belted brass, as originally designed,was not intended to be reloaded. And, chambers were sloppy so any and all cartridges would chamber. This sloppy chamber spec has passed down to us today. If you are going to reload beleted cases, be sure that the expensive custom rifle of yours has a chamber for preservation of cases.

Here is the post. Read what I said, think about it, and take a close look at the photo. Tells a lot about headspace on belted cartridges.

http://www.nookhill.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=002993#000002