I need to write a piece on the .458 Lott for an upcoming publication. I've slapped at it a few times but just sounds like every other .458 Lott article. I'd like to ask the guys here in the bigbores section to put on your objective shoes and help me pin down something fresh and or a bit off the beaten path for the merits of this cartridge. What makes it so good?

Nick,

I think that the ease of rechambering an existing .458 Win Mag to .458 Lott is what is reaponsible for many of the Lott rifles out there. Some are good, some are less good.

I would build the article around a "photo study" of how to build your own Lott rifle the right way.

jim dodd

Nick:

In addition to what Jim said, I would also emphasize the ability to duplicate traditional Nitro Express loads at relatively low pressure, i.e. 2150 to 2200 fps with mild loads; an important consideration in hot climates and where ease of extraction is critical. Also, I think that the Lott is in many ways, the .458 diameter equivalent of the .375 H&H, not spectacular by the standards of the high velocity wiz-bang crowd, just a good solid no frills, no thrills performer for the stuff that bites back. Probably why it has become so popular with PHs who hunt dangerous game.

Dave

Yes, Jim, the relative ease of rechambering is certainly a key factor. Thanks.

Boomer! How are you? It's been too long, my friend. Good thoughts there, I am in complete agreement. Thanks.

I am thinking that the terminal performance vrs casehead size relationship is overlooked by many.
Here we have a chambering that offers "stopping level" foot pounds on the smallest of all caseheads, or am I missing something (?). The .470 Capstick is the only chambering that may surpass the Lott in this regard while still offering identical magazine capacity. I think this provides a viable distinction in favor of the Lott over the bolt action competition at this power level. Do you agree?

The single biggest advantage, besides the 2300fps/500gr Bullet power and ability to shoot .458 win in an emergency is that the 458 Lott/450 Ackley class of cartridges can be made to work in std long actions like the pre-64 Win etc. They don't require a Magnum Mauser action like the .416 Rigby/460 wby class cartridges which means the guns can be made lighter, and more importantly are easier to handle and carry due to their more svelt dimensions in the action atrea. One of these, set up with ghost ring sights is a true joy to hunt with! This is a major advantage in a gun that will be carried all day on a Buff tracking hunt!-Rob

This is obviously mentioned in every article about the Lott but the fact that you can use Win mag ammo in a pinch makes the Lott more attractive. Nothing like readily available ammo that is workable in your "wildcat" if things go wrong in some way.

JohnTheGreek

Yes Sir!! There's meat on that bone. Thanks Rob!

Yes John, no doubt about it. I'm hoping to bring more to the article and that's why I posted here.
Good hunters, good gunsmiths and some wildass thinkers like Mike375 & Daggaron! What better place?

I shouldnt comment as I am new to the big bores,and my oppinion wont mean much, But I think the Lott just might become the working mans big bore.
1. Reasonable priced factory ammo.
2. reasonable priced brass.
3. reasonable priced bullets for target shooting.
4. reasonable priced reloading dies.
Next to a 375 looked like one of the cheapest rounds to shoot and reload.
I buy my guns to shoot and the lower cost the ammo the more you can shoot.
The 458 win part is an added bonus.
Ps i guess i am just cheap. But ill spend my money saved in Africa.
dean

Tahili Kemosabe'

You give'em damn good reasons!

The one thing that never gets mentioned about the lott, and win mag for that matter, is you can load 350 gr bullets @ 2400-2500 fps, and have recoil on par with a 375 H&H, yet much more terminal performance on large thin skinned game.

The only thing unique that I have to offer is that a number of PH's in Africa carry the Lott as their back-up rifle. My PH did and it came in quite handy.

On my first and only Buffalo hunt, I ended up shooting 9 times and he shot 6 times to keep it from making it to the thick stuff. The Buffalo ended up in the water and was trying to come out and stomp us into a bloody wet spot. My PH said "shoot him again!" I told him "I'm out of ammo!" He handed me one of his two last rounds and said that we had to brain him if he came out. Thankfully, I had filled him up with enough lead that I drowned him.

There is a lot to be said that you can use 458 Winchesters as a back-up, but there is a heck of a lot more to be said that you can use your PH's ammo in a REAL pinch.

Thank You, Paul. Excellent thought.

Longbob,
Holy Shit. 15 shots! That's the thing about buffalo, you never really know what's gonna happen. Some of them are quite unbelievable. Wish you had that action on video!

Hi Nickudu:

My two cents or even less. Everybody associates powerfull cartridges with the Nitro Express Fame.

If you use the old standard Velocity and Energy Foot Pounds measurement. The 458 Lott and family really pack a punch.

The Hornady factory load advertised with a 500 grain bullet, velocity of 2300+ FPS in a 24 in barrel equates to around 6000 Energy Foot Pounds at the muzzle.

To beat it, with factory loads, you have to get up around the 500 Jeffery, 505 Gibbs, 577-3" NE and the 600 NE....you can throw in the Weatherby 460 Magnum to.

There are a hell of a lot of calibers below that treshold. I know energy charts aren't the end all beat all for actual hunting of DG. But the 458 Lott packs enough punch to be called a REAL STOPPING RIFLE...and more powerfull than many double rifle calibers.

Regards... Jim P

I agree Jim. That's where I was going with my casehead size vrs power level theme a few posts up. I'm pretty sure a larger casehead is required to outperform the Lott which results in either reduced magazine capacity or a heavier rifle with a drop magazine. Had Winchester released the full length Watts, rather than the short Watts parody, today's bigbore scene would look very different, IMHO.

I'd reiterate these points that have already been made:

(1) Versatility- everthing from 45-70 type cast loads to near 460 Wby power
(2) Easy and inexpensive to handload
(3) Ability to use standard length Mauser-type actions
(4) Easy to convert many 458Win rifles
(5) Ability to substitute 458Win in a pinch
(6) Optimal power/velocity for most dangerous game situations and about as much power/recoil as most shooters can accurately and confidently handle.

Just to be clear the only thing the Lott has over the 450 Ackley is that factory ammo is available with proper headstamps ( for those pathetic countries where this seems to matter). The 450 Ackley is a Lott on Steroids. One thing that I really like about both of them is that both cases can be made easily from .375 H&H brass. In truth the 460 WBY performs best on animals at 450 Ackley/ Lott velocities.
In fact the recoil level of the Lott/Ackley is about the limit that most "experienced" shooters can tolerate with satisfactory accuracy or MOB(minute of Buffalo).
Finally at least one Commercial company ( Ruger) makes Lott's, while 450 Ackley's are at present custom rifles..-Rob

I can appreciate the cartridge for one reason. It just makes sense.
It harkens back to the pre-war days when cartridges were designed by hunters to serve a purpose, not by marketing directors trying to sell more rifles.

Classic rifles deserve classic chamberings. I think the 458 Lott has lots of class.

Kurt - Yes, it does make good sense. Well put.

Craigster - Perhaps not "Classic" in the usual sense but certainly from the perspective of "what should have been".

Nick,

It is Neo-classic.

Nick,

I like the casehead vs performance angle particularly when compared to the 416 and 505.
Also, as a 2 rifle battery, the 375 and the 458 lott has advantages of common brass, common actions (i matched my 416 and 505 so i could practice with the 416 as if the 505), and if you look at the two as one , you get bullets from 270 to 500g in essentially the same rifle. In my mind, perfect match.

regards,
steve

Steve,
I like the way you think!
A .375/.458 Lott tandem is irrefutable.

Thanks Guys!

Hi Nick,
What about the fact that the .458 bullet selection for reloading is second to none in the big bore catagory. What about reduced loads for North American game. What a great Brown bear cartridge for a guide in a 9 lb. rifle.
Take care
Dave

Nick.
some thoughts for you.
Smart guys ahead of me so I'll try not to be stupid.
Lott will push a 400gr.X with the same S.D. and trajectory as 35 Whelen 250gr. or, 308 win. 180 grain ( non dangerous game ).
Sight in at +2.5" at 100 yards, zero at 200, -9.5" at 300 yards with 400 X at 2550fps. Hits harder at 300 yards than a Marlin 45/70 does at the muzzle!
If you can shoot a 458 win. you can shoot the Lott. There is more difference in gun design than there is in recoil.

Hope this helped Nick. Good Luck!

Jamie

Dave.
Who do you use for a gun smith.
I need some local help with my 500 project.

Jamie

Dave, Jamie ... Good purnts ... I'm ready!

Just to be flapping my typographic jaws on this Nickudu thread, another summary of the above:

The .458 Lott is the Universal/Best DGR (forgive me King Rigby) and the "one rifle African battery" because:

1. It hits a little harder than any of the sub-45's for stopper use, with 500 grainers. It is fully adequate for anything, exceeding 2200 fps at reasonable pressures in 24" barrels, hot or cold.

2. It will easily exceed 2400 fps with 400 grainers and 2600 fps with 350 grainers for flexibility on smaller/softer game at long range, for those rifles that will shoot the lighter bullets accurately.

3. The penetration with 500 grainers is better than a 470 NE or 470 Capstick. The Capstick might be able to get a bit more velocity with the 500 grain bullet, but not significant.

4. The bullet selection and quality for various uses cannot be beat with the .458.

5. The ability to fire .458WinMag ammo in a pinch.

6. Ready availability of the Hornady factory loads and properly headstamped brass from other suppliers as well.

7. Magazine capacity of 5 or 6 down in the drop box, and one in the chamber cannot be beat, for total firepower without the need to reload.

8. Ability to use any action from M-98 to Brevex, and all that that entails.

9. Extension of the chamber neck by 0.05" will allow use of Watts ammo or let the brass grow beyond 2.800" with less frequent trimming and no problems with longer "Lott" loads one might encounter across the pond.

10. Ability to rechamber to the 3.000" .458 Express cartridge of RSA if one got a wild hair.

Who would need anything else if his bullets flew true from a .458 Lott?

DaggaRon-And the ability to rechamber to my
458HE wildcat in Ruger #1's and long bolt actions.
Will be doing a couple of #1's in a few weeks.Ed.

Ed,
True! Even the 3.000" is too long to work with the common 500 grain bullet cannelures in the common magazine rifles, however, without some modifications. Your 3.250" is definitely the ultimate single shot 45.

Scratch number 10 of mine above, for magazine rifles.

Hi x-man,
I tried to e-mail you through AR but it wouldn't go. I'm working up in Grande Prairie at the moment and will e-mail you with the information of a local gunsmith.
Take care,
Dave

Nick,

I think the 458 Lott is somewhat like the 375 H&H...lots of desirability in combination with lots of practicality. Many calibres have one of these attributes but not both.

I have never owned a 458 Lott so I am guessing on this next point. As issued, 458 Winchesters have a huge amount of freebore and this can lead to hangfire problems with mid range loads and lighter bullets like the 45/70 300 grainers. I imagine the 458 Lott reamer would effectively reduce this freebore by .3". Thus a 458 Lott might bet better for "playing about" than the standard 458 while on the other hand offering far more top end performance and lots more pizzaz.

My own view is that the large majority of articles on 375 H&H and up concentrate on the good/bad points for Africa and other very big game. However, I think the reality is that most are used and purchased for smaller animals, rocks, trees etc. and the "just to have" factor.

With far less freebore (I think?) it should be much better for cast bullets than the 458 and at the same time not have grease grooved and gas checks poking down under the neck like a 450 Ackley.

Last but not least, the 458 Lott shares with calibres like the 416 Rigby/Wby, 45 Wby/Dakota/Rigby and of course the 50s a situation where top loads are a bit much of a good thing. This allows for a lot of relaxation with reloading. I think that reasoning is one of the pluses that Saeed sees in his 375/404s, that is, he can have absolute top end 375 H&H ballistics but with all sorts of loads.

Mike

DaggaRon- Yes my 458HE is mainly for singles,
And it is 3.45 in long.I can get a mag to work
for cartridge on the P-14 I chambered for my wildcat. That's why we are also trying to get the
PH Action built long.

It is poetic justce that the Lott is going and growing, as it is what Winchester should have done first instead of short one.A vindication of hunters and wildcatters from the 40s and 50s who
had it right,and company ignored them.The Lott
with 400 gr spitzers are great for NA big game
at long distances.Many more will be doing that here as opposed to African hunting.I put a 400gr
spitzer through a whitetail buck, a doe, and half
way though pine stump.Intant kill.And stump didn't get away either.From my wildcat
458 HE..Ed.

Mike375,
Ah ha! Good to see you back, mate. Have you joined AR Anonymous yet? I am thinking about it.

DaggaRon

No not yet. I only posted on this thread because of some emails I was having with Nick and over here it is a long weekend for our version of your Memorial Day. I will resurface "full time" after June 30. June 30 is the end of our financial year.

Did you like my assessment of the 458 Lott?

Mike

YES! Thanks again to all!

The point Ron raises about the Lott vs. the 470 is a good one worth mentioning IMO. I was recently at Cabela's in MI, and the story of a hunter who had an unfortunate elephant run in while hunting something else came up. He was armed with a Lott at that point, and traded it for a 470 NE 'for better stopping power.' The salesman and apparently the hunter didn't get the point that (allowing for velocity and SD) the Lott is the better of the two in that regard -- at the very least, they're equal. Granted most 470 NE's are doubles, and the rapid second shot may be worth the compromise. But it's still a good myth to dispel.

Todd

The nitro express cartridges were and are enough gun, 500 grains at 2150 fps. The 458 Lott is undeniably in the same class and is enough gun.

The 458 WM wanted to duplicate the old NE performance and fell only 100, or maybe 200 fps short of it. Still, it's probably enough gun. Except at 1950 fps and pushing the pressure envelope, the 458 WM is a little bit like an old Siamese Mauser round, namely, the 45-70 Government cartridge. While it is true that the 458 WM picks up where the 45-70 leaves off, there was never a very broad beam of daylight between the two cartridges.

Without going to a very expensive double rifle or a very expensive Magnum Mauser, the 458 WM used to be the closest thing to the real thing. The 458 Lott is the real thing.

H. C.