All of the recent discussions on the attributes or lack thereof of the various solid bullet designs got me to asking the question "Which solid design is the most versatile?" My desk top dictionary defines versatile as "able to do many things well" for our discussion lets amend that slightly to "able to do the most things well". To successfully answer the question we must be objective and leave swollen and bruised egos aside.

Realize that I approach this discussion from a little different direction than many of the posters here. I approach it as a hunter looking for the bullet that will give me the best chance of success rather than a shooter that has hunting as a secondary consideration.

My nominees for the most versatile solid design are the truncated nose FN designs such as the North Fork and GS Custom. The FN ogived mono metal designs such as the Barnes solid and Nosler, the FN ogived steel jacketed designs as typified by the Hornady DGS and the steel jacketed RN designs such as the Woodleigh, old Hornady and the original Winchester design. The last category to consider is the ultra-heavy weight designs as exemplified by the Woodleigh RN steel jacketed bullets such as the 450 grain, .416s and 550 grain .458. I have not included the RN mono-metal designs such as the A2 or old discontinued Barnes solids. They were inferior penetrators and were known to veer much to regularly to be considered a DG bullet.

First let's consider a frontal head shot on elephants. From my experience all of these bullet designs have enough penetration to reliably reach the brain from any angle, assuming that you don't hit the tusk socket or a molar in route. None of them can be counted on to fully penetrate those bones. We have no choice but avoid them. On frontal shots all are tied.

On stern follow up shots on elephant again all have sufficient penetration to reach the hip joint or break the spine. None can be counted on to reach the heart/lung shot from this angle although the truncated cone FN bullets and the ultra-heavy weights have the best chance due to there tremendous penetration .

On side body shots again all have sufficient penetration to reach the heart/lung vital area and go beyond from any reasonable angle. Elephants are very susceptible to this shot and seldom go much beyond 50 yards when hit in this area. Even a 375 will handle this shot quite nicely.

Too much penetration can be a real problem on side body shots well it isn't a problem on end on shots from either direction. When using one of the FN or ultra heavy weight designs you have to be very careful that there isn't another elephant behind the one you are shooting at. The other elephant isn't always visible. You are forced to pass up shots with deep penetrating solids. You may or not get another chance at that animal. With the RN steel jacketed designs you can confidently place your bullet on the top of the crease behind the shoulder or 4" forward and know that the bullet will stay in the elephant. If you have to pass up shots that reduces the versatility of the bullet.

So, I believe that the RN steel jacketed solid at 2,150 fps from 416 to 475 caliber cartridges are the most versatile for the modern day elephant hunter.

I fully expect that there will be disagreement to this conclusion and I welcome such, because that is one way we learn.

465H&H

465H&H,

FYI, about 50% of my Woodleighs exit on broadside shots on cow elephants. 100% of the NF's. On bulls, the Woodleighs don't exit, and the NF's exit most of the time.

Right now, if I had to pick only one solid, it would have to be the Woodleigh .458", 500gr.

Also, on Quartering away shots, the NF's relibly penetrate into, maybe exiting, the off side shoulder or are found under the skin or to have exited from the front. The Woodleighs do not penetrate to that extent, and so do less damage to the lungs and heart.

The beautiful thing here is that I do not have to select just one bullet, I can select two, and use the one most suitable for the circumstances. A useful feature of double rifles.

JPK

MY experience with Woodleigh hhave been in .465 and .475 diameters. They do not exit on broadside shots. I may have to modify which RN designs are more versatile.

465H&H

The most versatile solid......is the one that regulates with my "soft"....most of it is gravy after that....having said that, I do prefer solids with a flat nose like Barnes or Northfork, but I don't have a problem using Woodleighs.

quote:

Originally posted by MHC_TX:
The most versatile solid......is the one that regulates with my "soft"....most of it is gravy after that....having said that, I do prefer solids with a flat nose like Barnes or Northfork, but I don't have a problem using Woodleighs.

When the search for the most versatile is limited to elephants, then the softs are irrelevant.

But I have never had too much trouble getting various bullets to shoot together, have you?

I had a bit of trouble with a 375H&H bolt rifle, but that is because I limited my soft choice to one bullet, and had to find the solid that would shoot to the same POI, rather than being able to select between both softs and solids.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
JPK,
The .425 and the two 470s loaded with Woodleigh FMJs worked flawlessly with five brain shots and one heart shot.

OzHunter recently returned from a four elephant hunt. Thought his report on bullet performance would be insightful.

JPK

quote:

So, I believe that the RN steel jacketed solid at 2,150 fps from 416 to 475 caliber cartridges are the most versatile for the modern day elephant hunter.

The first time, I didn't read anything until the end cause I knew this conclusion would be down at the bottom somewhere. I know you like a book!

Don't really remember any body shots of note but Woodleighs have routinely bent on head shots. And so do most.

I don't remember any exiting body shots. That would seem tough to do. But then I don't look for them either.

I suspect that flat point solids would, in theory, be best. I would want straight-line penetration on elephant brain shots. Body shots probably don't matter as much.

Whether the ideal flat point solid is out there yet I do not know.

On the other hand, shoot 'em with those big guns so the bullet type doesn't really matter. Then Woodleigh or NF or .... who cares?

For peashooters like the 416, I want straight lines.

Heck, even 500grains flatly states that FN bullets out penetrate everything else in elephants...

I am going to go with the the RN solids -- ten elephant so far and not one compliant. All have been Woodleighs, all have been head shots and not one has bent. The worst I have experienced is a little lead obtrusion from the base.

Never shot a elephant however for folks in the USA it would seem that the Hornady DGS would be a good choice. Relatively inexpensive, good performance, readily available and will feed in a double or bolt reliably and is a shorter pill for 500 gr that will not impare powder capacity.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Never shot a elephant however for folks in the USA it would seem that the Hornady DGS would be a good choice. Relatively inexpensive, good performance, readily available and will feed in a double or bolt reliably and is a shorter pill for 500 gr that will not impare powder capacity.

IMHO, Price of the projectile should be way down the list of considerations
or is irrelevant. We are hunting Elephant, and the only thing between you and it being dead on a $10,000 hunt is a piece of metal that you want to save 50 cents on ?

I often wonder why people spend thousands of $$$$ hunting all types of game and then skimp on one of the major things that can affect the outcome.

Just my HO.

Hey, you try to peddle Aussie Woodleighs and we'll try peddling Hornady's.

we are NOT hunting elephant, a specialized experience, we are discussing the most versatile solid.

When's the last time a SPORT hunter was killed hunting elephant?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
we are NOT hunting elephant, a specialized experience, we are discussing the most versatile solid.

When's the last time a SPORT hunter was killed hunting elephant?

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

First let's consider a frontal head shot on elephants. First let's consider a frontal head shot on elephants. From my experience all of these bullet designs have enough penetration to reliably reach the brain from any angle, assuming that you don't hit the tusk socket or a molar in route. None of them can be counted on to fully penetrate those bones. We have no choice but avoid them. On frontal shots all are tied.

On stern follow up shots on elephant On stern follow up shots on elephant again all have sufficient penetration to reach the hip joint or break the spine. None can be counted on to reach the heart/lung shot from this angle although the truncated cone FN bullets and the ultra-heavy weights have the best chance due to there tremendous penetration .

On side body shots again all have sufficient penetration to reach the heart/lung vital area and go beyond from any reasonable angle. Elephants Elephants are very susceptible to this shot and seldom go much beyond 50 yards when hit in this area. Even a 375 will handle this shot quite nicely.

Too much penetration can be a real problem on side body shots well it isn't a problem on end on shots from either direction. When using one of the FN or ultra heavy weight designs you have to be very careful that there isn't another elephant elephant behind the one you are shooting at. The other elephant isn't always visible. You are forced to pass up shots with deep penetrating solids. You may or not get another chance at that animal. With the RN steel jacketed designs you can confidently place your bullet on the top of the crease behind the shoulder or 4" forward and know that the bullet will stay in the elephant. If you have to pass up shots that reduces the versatility of the bullet.

So, I believe that the RN steel jacketed solid at 2,150 fps from 416 to 475 caliber cartridges are the most versatile for the modern day elephant hunter. for the modern day elephant hunter.

465H&H

Well my reading of 465's post says Elephant.


I don't know when the last sport hunter was killed by an Elephant and frankly don't care - if you hunt DG, you know the consequences if it's turns to shit.
.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Hey, you try to peddle Aussie Woodleighs and we'll try peddling Hornady's.

LOL

not untill the 4th paragraph, as a consideration, not as the topic of discussion ..

if you choose to bend it to ONLY elepahnt hunting, then i can move this thread to african .. however, the title is most versatile solid .. period ..

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

I don't know when the last sport hunter was killed by an Elephant and frankly don't care - if you hunt DG, you know the consequences if it's turns to shit.
.

If you don't care, then why do you care about the solid?
my POINT is, that more hunters get hurt by buffalo and hippo than elephants .. you are the one demanding this is a elephants only thread, and I am telling you, by your own statement, that the population of possibles is tiny, to the point of exclusion

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

I don't know when the last sport hunter was killed by an Elephant and frankly don't care - if you hunt DG, you know the consequences if it's turns to shit.
.

If you don't care, then why do you care about the solid?
my POINT is, that more hunters get hurt by buffalo and hippo than elephants .. you are the one demanding this is a elephants only thread, and I am telling you, by your own statement, that the population of possibles is tiny, to the point of exclusion

Not disputing your point, yes, we know that is true. I am not demanding, just stating what
I thought the thread was about based on 45H&H's original post.

Many factors could be that someone got flattened. Elephants charge unprovoked when a bullet
hasn't even been fired. Or an another one charges after dropping it's mate.

I restricted the discussion to elephanr because I see no need for solids on buff. Good soft points such as the Swift, Nosler Partition and North Fork softs provide all the penetration and stopping power you will ever need. They also will reduce the chance of shoot throughs. I suppose we should include rhino and hippo. Oh yes, I will definately load a FN solid the next time I am called out to shoot a stranded whale on the beach.

There wasn't much press about it but a client was killed by an elephant last year in Zimbabwe.

465H&H

There wasn't much press about it but a client was killed by an elephant last year in Zimbabwe.

Well that adds a little spice to the whole thing doesn't it.

465H&H[/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by els:
There wasn't much press about it but a client was killed by an elephant last year in Zimbabwe.

Well that adds a little spice to the whole thing doesn't it.

465H&H

Anyone that is so scared of elephant that he feels the need to use a .577 NE shouldn't talk.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I am going to go with the the RN solids -- ten elephant so far and not one compliant. All have been Woodleighs, all have been head shots and not one has bent. The worst I have experienced is a little lead obtrusion from the base.

Mike,

The tit is likely from just firing the bullet. The tit is formed when the bullet swages and accomodates the lands.

Not to say that some additional lead may extrude from the bullet because of what it might hit in an elephant, but every Woodleigh that I have shot, even those into softs targets has the small tit.

BTW, a good percentage of the Woodleighs that I have recovered from brain shots were either bent or tail flattened, or even split at the tail. But they all did their jobs and penetrated straight so far as I could tell, and I was looking for deviation.

I think the Woodleighs and other RN steel jacketed solids tumble frquently, but only when they have lost most all of their velocity, and have penetrated plenty far to have done their jobs.

JPK

Jacketed bullets better have a tit, or your barrels in a double barrel may go tits up at some point.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
465H&H,

FYI, about 50% of my Woodleighs exit on broadside shots on cow elephants. 100% of the NF's. On bulls, the Woodleighs don't exit, and the NF's exit most of the time.

Right now, if I had to pick only one solid, it would have to be the Woodleigh .458", 500gr.

Also, on Quartering away shots, the NF's relibly penetrate into, maybe exiting, the off side shoulder or are found under the skin or to have exited from the front. The Woodleighs do not penetrate to that extent, and so do less damage to the lungs and heart.

The beautiful thing here is that I do not have to select just one bullet, I can select two, and use the one most suitable for the circumstances. A useful feature of double rifles.

JPK

Now that's logic for you, shoot a solid for penetration and then pick the one that penetrates less...... WOW

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
The idea that Cup & Core bullets whether RN or FN are in any way comparable to FN monometal solids is utterly laughable. Hunting elephant with them is the equivalent of entering a Model T in a Formula One race. The only reason to use them other than they're cheap is nostalgia. Then there's the ignorance (or ignoramus) factor. Here's what happens when you shoot a semi-hard target with a RN C&C bullet and a Monometal FN. Same velocity, same load, same gun, same target.

I agree with this post