RIP,

Me bad!

Thanks for correction.

Ive got CRS syndrom. (Cant Remember S_ _t).

Andy

I need a drink!

quote:

Velocity cannot make up for lack of SD in the real world.

I have done the plywood thing: I built my first plywood stop box in '84 or '85. I have done the water bag/bucket thing: I have built more of these contraptions than what I care to think about and always wind up shooting them to pieces. I have done the real world knocking down animals thing: Since 1993 it was specifically to compare bullets. The game shot for this purpose numbers into many hundreds.

Andy is right about penetration in wood. Rip is right about penetration in water. RIP, Macifej, Warrior, the three of you are wrong about the real world. Not only do I know so from personal experience, this opinion is reinforced by customer feedback almost on a daily basis.

pichon1,

Gerard,
You have conveniently neglected to make a statement about shooting into the combination of wood and water, nor have you said whether you ever tried it. However, I am sure I know what that statement will be.

You better tell Saeed that he is "all wet" for using 300-grain .375 bullets for his immense game bag, instead of 265 or 270-grainers, whether soft or solid.

My limited real world game experience in Alaska, Africa and Kentucky from deer to cape buffalo, is that with a standard 1:12" TWIST the 300-grain .375 bullet of any construction is superior to a lesser weight bullet of the same construction, at any velocity.

I am not saying 300gr bullets do not work in a 375. Especially in fast 375s where the extra speed translates to higher stability factor numbers. Maybe Saeed could make some 260 or 270gr bullets and give them a try. I don't think he has made the comparison. Saeed?

RIP, did you not shoot a Cape Buff with a shorter than normal, 380gr, lower Sd but higher stability factor 416? The same bullet that penetrated two substantial thorn trees to continue and start mining operations in Botswana? And the Bison, that was done with a 570gr FN from a 1:10" twist. So, the stability factor would be similar to that of a 500gr FN from a 500 Jeffery with the standard 1:20" twist, or a 500NE with a 540gr FN from its standard 1:15" twist.

See, it is all in the high stability factor, not the Sd.

Alf, don't start on this please, you know the answers.

quote:

wrong about the real world

Wrong about what now oh exalted one of legend??

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
I am not saying 300gr bullets do not work in a 375. Especially in fast 375s where the extra speed translates to higher stability factor numbers. Maybe Saeed could make some 260 or 270gr bullets and give them a try. I don't think he has made the comparison. Saeed?

RIP, did you not shoot a Cape Buff with a shorter than normal, 380gr, lower Sd but higher stability factor 416? The same bullet that penetrated two substantial thorn trees to continue and start mining operations in Botswana? And the Bison, that was done with a 570gr FN from a 1:10" twist. So, the stability factor would be similar to that of a 500gr FN from a 500 Jeffery with the standard 1:20" twist, or a 500NE with a 540gr FN from its standard 1:15" twist.

See, it is all in the high stability factor, not the Sd.

Alf, don't start on this please, you know the answers.

O.K., but a standard .375 H&H load delivering 2530 fps MV with those crappy-long, old-style, Barnes-XFB (one cannelure) bullets killed everything without fail on plainsgame, with a 1:12" TWIST.
Where is the problem with that?

quote:

Andy is right about penetration in wood. Rip is right about penetration in water. RIP, Macifej, Warrior, the three of you are wrong about the real world. Not only do I know so from personal experience, this opinion is reinforced by customer feedback almost on a daily basis.

I thought Roy Weatherby died. Who knew he moved to South Africa.

quote:

Roy Weatherby

JIM!! PLEASE!!!

Don't compare Roy to Larry and Curly in the Bush...

Gerard,

You will be interested in knowing that my good friend of almost 30 years, Bill Steigers, the inventor of the original and probably still best bonded core hunting bullet, the Bitterroot (in 1965), also believes that the faster you drive his bullets the more they penetrate.

This is with a bonded bullet that has huge frontal area and routinely 95% wieght retention. It is not a solid base either, so it continues to expand with increased velocity, but it has a thick enough V-shaped jacket that it holds up to very high velocity even with relatively low SD.

Bill was in business so long and had so many customers hunting all over the world that I have always found virtually anything he said in his later years proved to be true!

Bill was also an early advocate of a quick twist, even for soft points. He had a large collection of mushrooms that had not expanded uniformly. (They were tipped to one side). He demanded his own bullets to have perfectly perpendicular mushrooms.

Its interesting you both have made the same observation.

RIP,

I ran the Penetration Index on your three bullets. Remember that Alphins PI was within +/- 10% of actual results in the wood stop box with two exceptions. (The high velocity 375 was not quite as good as it appeared to be and the 400 grain .458 Winchester was off by 20%).

Based on my tests the .338 will probably not be quite as good as it appears in the PI due to its lighter weight, though the 1-10 will probably make up for that! (3-4 boards worth of extra penetration).

PI of .338 = 141!!! (3rd highest of all bullets predicted by Alphin).

PI of 300 gr .375 at 2500 fps = 115.

PI of 270 gr .375 at 2,700 fps = 107.

When you consider a .416 is only 124 it is hard to believe the .338 will be that much better.

Andy

quote:

Bill Steigers, the inventor of the original and probably still best bonded core hunting bullet, the Bitterroot (in 1965), also believes that the faster you drive his bullets the more they penetrate. This is with a bonded bullet that has huge frontal area and routinely 95% wieght retention. It is not a solid base either, so it continues to expand with increased velocity ...

Mo/Xsa tells us it is not so, as the increased expansion of the cross sectional area devastates/inhibits penetration to a significant extent, which is fed by the increased velocity.

A good case in point is the often seen shallow penetration in game from a .510 Wdl Soft RN bullet that is prone to over expansion.

Warrior

Warrior

Pushing the "non-deforming" bullet faster = increased penetration. All materials are deforming at velocity X.

600 Woody soft at 2400fps...

quote:

that is prone to over expansion.

Bitteroots do not over expand, they just expand alot.

Think of a Woodleigh that was made right (and 30 years before).

Closer to a North Fork than a Woody.

Andy

Holy Shit, this is confusing! Is there a "pain index"? ie which bullet hurts the least to get shot with? I need another drink!!

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:

quote:

Andy is right about penetration in wood. Rip is right about penetration in water. RIP, Macifej, Warrior, the three of you are wrong about the real world. Not only do I know so from personal experience, this opinion is reinforced by customer feedback almost on a daily basis.

I thought Roy Weatherby died. Who knew he moved to South Africa.

Jim,
That is another 400-pound gorilla of a joke. Do you write for Dennis?

Andy,
Don't count on your woodpile giving a reality check. Gerard has passed judgement on that. It ain't real. Add some water between the wood to negate velocity and favor SD, just like real game.

Also you seem to be wanting to have your cake and eat it too, regarding the Bitterroots. If it never quits expanding with increasing velocity, there is no way it can penetrate better with higher velocity. At some speed it is going to spread wide enough to put the brakes on very early in its path in game, and it is going to penetrate less than it would at lower speed (lesser expansion gives lesser resistance). There has got to be a stop on expansion if ever higher velocity is to possibly give better penetration, or at least not reduced penetration.

This is really wierd. I am agreeing with Warrior's latest pronouncements.

Gerard has also lumped me in the same class with Mad Mac and Warrior.
I guess the truth hurts.

quote:

This is really wierd. I am agreeing with Warrior's latest pronouncements.

Yep!

quote:

Gerard has also lumped me in the same class with Mad Mac and Warrior.
I guess the truth hurts.

I'd be more concerned if someone lumped me in with Gerard than you two!!

This thread reminds me of going to and watching a really bad movie. It is so bad that you really want to get up and walk out, but you paid your money and some sick, twisted part deep inside your brain insists on watching to the end just in case it starts to get better ...

Oops, I meant "WEIRD."

You know, I have every Weird Western Tales comic ever published by DC Comics except #17. Always looking to find that one. You'd think I would remember how to spell "weird." It's just weird.

Speaking of movies: I hear there is going to be a Jonah Hex movie. That should be really weird.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Oops, I meant "WEIRD."

You know, I have every Weird Western Tales comic ever published by DC Comics except #17. Always looking to find that one. You'd think I would remember how to spell "weird." It's just weird.

Speaking of movies: I hear there is going to be a Jonah Hex movie. That should be really weird.

If I come across that issue, I'll pick it up for you. Now if that particular comic was popular in N.J. - now that would be weird.

RIP,

quote:

Add some water between the wood to negate velocity and favor SD, just like real game.

It does favor SD and bullet weight.

Send me a PM with your address (one of many?) and I will send you an 18 page article I wrote in 1982. I recovered every 375 bullet made at the time from point blank out to 500 yards in 100 yd incriments at both standard 375 and improved velocities.

I have killed many bison w this bullet.

One shot kills in their tracks.

375 Bitterroots expand to about one inch in diameter at 2800-3000 fps and retain 95% of weight.

By 300 yards they expand into 4 propellors rather than a homogenous mushroom. Lower FA makes penetration similar to closer range where FA and velocity is greater. Down to about 3/4 inch by 300 yds.

Only cup and draw bullet to control expansion as well or better than a solid base. (I say better because they expand more up close but dont over expand).

No mystery about more penetration with more velocity as they quit expanding at one inch.

Andy

Andy,
How does the Bitterroot stop expansion at 1" when it is a bonded cup and core? Must be a very thick cup at the base and tapers toward the nose? Not a solid base bullet but behaves like a solid base bullet?
Like having your cake and eating it too, with ice cream!
Do you have a picture of a cross-sectioned Bitterroot?
PM will be sent.

Paul,
If you find Weird Western Tales #17, I shall be eternally grateful.

I am still pissed off that I traded off Incredible Hulk #1 when I was six years old. That was the first comic I ever bought, and I bought it with my first ever allowance payment of 25 cents. I got two comics with that first quarter.

quote:

I am not saying 300gr bullets do not work in a 375. Especially in fast 375s where the extra speed translates to higher stability factor numbers.

Gerard,

The extra speed account for little to almost nothing. The twist rate is the variable that really makes a difference. That is why barrel makers vary the twist rate, and hardly if ever do they suggest higher velocities to obtain stability.

We could model the 375 H&H with a 1-in 12" twist rate at 2500, 2600, 2700 & 2800 fps with a 300 gr bullet and see the sensitivity if you like. It should put a lid on things fairly fast.

Warrior

quote:

O.K., but a standard .375 H&H load delivering 2530 fps MV with those crappy-long, old-style, Barnes-XFB (one cannelure) bullets killed everything without fail on plainsgame, with a 1:12" TWIST.
Where is the problem with that?

RIP,

There is no problem.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Paul,
If you find Weird Western Tales #17, I shall be eternally grateful.

I am still pissed off that I traded off Incredible Hulk #1 when I was six years old. That was the first comic I ever bought, and I bought it with my first ever allowance payment of 25 cents. I got two comics with that first quarter.

I had every FF from #2 through whatever in 1975. Stored them in cardboard boxes in an aunt's basement ...

So far so good on #17 ...

quote:

My limited real world game experience in Alaska, Africa and Kentucky from deer to cape buffalo, is that with a standard 1:12" TWIST the 300-grain .375 bullet of any construction is superior to a lesser weight bullet of the same construction, at any velocity.

The question of the 270 gr vs 300 gr FN bullet in .375 caliber has been discussed before at length, but more importantly, it was conclusively demonstrated by RIP that the 300 grainer is superior in the 375 H&H, and it is in no way negatively influenced by the lower SF value. Just to refresh the memory, Gerard stated ... "With FN bullets we recommend a stability factor in excess of 2.5 for reliable linear penetration. The 300gr FN has a stability factor of 2.39 to 2.44 from 2000fps to 3000fps. Again not ideal."

Remember Pieter Olivier's hunt, the Blue Wildebeest he shot in the Kalahari. He used the 9,3/270 GS-FN bullet loaded to a MV of 2,500 fps striking at around 1,700 fps at 220 yards. His rifle has a standard twist rate of 1-in 14" and the bullet gave absolute straight-line penetration. The SF value? The calculated SF was report by Gerard himself as ... "It is a hair over 2 at 2.04 at 1200fps to 2.09 at 2600fps." What is clearly evident here is that the role velocity plays in the stability factor is absolute minute - a change in velocity of 1,400 fps (167%) changed the factor only from 2.04 to 2.09 - that is by 2.45%. And nor do we need a SF value in excess of 2.5.

Here is another real life comparison, the 9.3/286 gr Rhino Solid yields a SF value of only 1.39 with a standard twist of 1-in-14". It provides straight-line penetration, as confirmed by various PH's despite the fact of a lower SF value. Likewise, many buffalo have been shot with the .416/400 gr Rhino Solid at 2,400 fps in a standard twist of 1-in-16.5" yielding a SF value of 1.44. This is proof that a SF value between 1.39 and 1.44 is adequate both for Softs and Solids, as straight-line in-target penetration is not governed by the twist rate, but rather by the geometry of the bullet.

Warrior

RIP,

quote:

O.K., but a standard .375 H&H load delivering 2530 fps MV killed everything without fail on plainsgame, with a 1:12" TWIST. Where is the problem with that?

No problem with that at all. I would be astounded if there is any kind of plains game that does not fall down when hit with anything fired from a 375H&H, provided the shot is well placed. The analogy makes me think of a couple of "testimonials" where an Impala and Kudu were shot with a 458 to prove the efficiency of a particular caliber and bullet combination. It is my opinion that, when I go out to test the capability of a bullet/caliber on game, I must find the limits, if possible. No one will find the limits of a 375 or 458 on plains game, unless you load the thing with talcum powder and bullets made from tissue paper.

quote:

This is really weird. I am agreeing with Warrior's latest pronouncements.

I don't think so, he has done a flip flop to have someone to side with. You have to watch out for him!!

quote:

Gerard has also lumped me in the same class with Mad Mac and Warrior. I guess the truth hurts.

This is entirely your fault. The moment you said it, you should have known they would agree with you.


Macifej,

quote:

Don't compare Roy to Larry and Curly in the Bush

Coming from someone who has the comments below to his credit, I will take the above whence it comes:

quote:

Question: How does a properly placed bullet kill?
Macifej: Energy transfer (or the lack of it)

Energy transfer? Yeah right, you are the expert.

quote:

Question: Why the absence of grooves to the rear part of the shank of the bullet?
Macifej: You can groove the whole thing down to a gnats ass but you give up a lot of weight and most guys here opt for weight over reduced surface area. Additionally, too little rigidity in the rear may induce a slight wobble and reduce accuracy.

A 500gr smooth bullet weighs 494gr when done with drive bands. Big deal. The wobbling lack of rigidity is an amazing revelation, though. Where did you get your engineering know all from? Same place that taught you about Brinnel(sic) hardness?

quote:

I prefer something in the middle ground - brass or bronze alloys. Besides! Copper isn't shiny enough for me!

Someone said something about if it does not go, chrome it.

quote:

I just make em' I don't shoot em!!

quote:

The difference between us is that I don't do lab testing

quote:

How good is the gas sealing? Can't tell ya cause I didn't test em.

quote:

Mike at Northfork could have saved himself a lot of trouble by choosing a better alloy for his application.

Ah, yes. And Somchem is a half assed who knows who company.

quote:

Hey if you follow Gerard's logic, his copper bullets should cause more barrel wear since copper is harder on tooling.

That slip, which proves your real background as a quasi-engineer, must still be hurting.

quote:

Given that the biggest animal I've blasted was a Condor sized Canada Goose that was pissing me off..

That explains a lot and puts the following entirely in perspective.

quote:

The fact is that a friggin' lopped off section of bar stock will kill em all deader than a doornail.

Given that less than a year ago you did not even know who to farm out your designs to, your sudden revelation of vast experience is quite surprising.

quote:

1 August 2007: Anyone have a CNC Swiss type screw machine with 1.375"+ bar stock capacity?? ...

Does anyone understand what you mean by:

quote:

Pushing the "non-deforming" bullet faster = increased penetration. All materials are deforming at velocity X. 600 Woody soft at 2400fps...

Of course not. Such half phrases that are left hanging are designed to give the appearance of knowledge when in fact it is running a bit thin.

quote:

I'd be more concerned if someone lumped me in with Gerard than you two!!

Heaven forbid! But thankfully that would be most unlikely.

quote:

Warrior posted: The extra speed account for little to almost nothing.

Words of wisdom from he who does not understand the concept of splitting hairs or sweating the details. He who is incapable of visiting more than one concept at a time.

Chris, you take issue with the fact that GSC places a particular stability factor spec on the FN bullets. You state that other manufacturers do not deem this neccesary. I have to ask: Have you ever heard of a GSC FN that did not perform terminally as it is supposed to do? GSC has been making FN bullets to this spec for 11 years - several hundred thousand of them and we have yet to hear of a single failure. But failures from other solids are reported frequently, in addition to the successes you always trot out. Could it be that our rigid adherence to our stated specification has something to do with the reliability of our FN designs?

It is funny when you get so worked up that you forget how to type: What on earth is a "satbilily factor"? Go on, go fix it quickly, the guys are grinning at you again.

quote:

Warrior posted:
straight-line in-target penetration is not governed by the twist rate, but rather by the geometry of the bullet.

You can relax RIP, he is disagreeing with you again. Told you he flip flops all the time.

quote:

Could it be that our rigid adherence to our stated specification has something to do with the reliability of our FN designs?

Gerard,

Your deduction that it has to do with SF values is wrong. That is where we disagree. The terminal performance of the FN Solid is excellent and this is where we agree - better than any RN design.

Warrior

Mister desperation is on the attack again!!

You're not even a good liar/disinformation artist. If all you can come up with is cut and paste re-hashes of comedy then you are in deep shit Jethro. I see a guy who's built a whole business (sort-of) around his own proclaimations of greatness when if fact you don't really have the expertise you claim do you Gerard?? Can you tell us from which University you received your PhD in AME?? Which ballistics lab did you work for? Which munitions manufacturer did you work for? Hmmmm...

I'm guessing this latest school girl attack is in response to you getting busted by RIP copying one of my designs - probably a good idea on your part since you almost got one of your customers killed with your brilliant driving band crimp feature up front. See Gerard, when I came up with that idea it was just common sense - I didn't have to pontificate about it for 25 years.

Regarding your now classic diversionary tactics here...

Do you have a screw machine that will load 1.375" barstock - NO! You don't so STFU.

Regarding SOMCHEM - I hope you are getting your monies worth with your $2.00 per shot testing regime.

Doesn't it seem a little strange that someone who claims to be in the bullet business for 25 years is thrashing about cause someone else halfway around the world made a few bullets for experimentation. Even the thought of a little competition throws you into a panic doesn't it Capt. Paranoia.

It's Ok Gerard - Don't Cry!!

I may get bored with all of this and go make something else...or maybe I won't!!

PS Dear - Does Karl Marx know you stole his routine??

quote:

Your deduction that it has to do with SF values is wrong.

My testing and observation tell me I am right: A years worth of shooting at water, clay, wet paper, logs, stop boxes and animals, before a single bullet went to market. Hell, I wore out a Steyr Mannlicher rifle just in 375H&H. I rebarreled and refinished the borrowed 9.3, 416 and 458 rifles before returning them to their owners. That is probably why I am recoil shy today. We had successes and we had failures. Once we wrote the spec and went to market with the successes, they just continued. The failures all had one thing in common: Too litle S/F and too much Sd.

Now what do you base your opinion on again?


Macifej,

quote:

copying one of my designs

You walked right into that one. The bullet pictured is older than what you have been making bullets. You have a short memory, just like Warrior.

quote:

Do you have a screw machine that will load 1.375" barstock - NO! You don't so STFU.

A better question is: Do you have one?

Gerard,

Why is your experience not in line with RIP's findings when he evaluated the 270 gr FN vs the 300 gr FN?

Could it be that RIP is totally mistaken?

Warrior

quote:

You walked right into that one. The bullet pictured is older than what you have been making bullets. You have a short memory, just like Warrior.

Yeah ok!!

If that were the case I wouldn't know cause I haven't been worshipping at the Gerard Temple.

Whether chicken or egg you should go to that design as it's better!

quote:

Why is your experience not in line with RIP's findings when he evaluated the 270 gr FN vs the 300 gr FN?

How does RIPs findings differ from my experience? Both bullets he tested have a S/F more than 2 and tracked straight. Seems to me that supports my view.

Macifej,

quote:

If that were the case I wouldn't know

You got that right!!

quote:

Whether chicken or egg you should go to that design as it's better!

Been doing them for more than 14 months now and they are not the same as yours. You don't do drive bands, remember. You can't see it even when it is right in front of you.

/

quote:

Can you tell us from which University you received your PhD in AME?? Which ballistics lab did you work for? Which munitions manufacturer did you work for? Hmmmm...

I quote myself cause you aren't able to do it honestly...

So the entire world is waiting to hear your answer...oh exhalted one who copies other's work!!

It's OK Gerard!! Even you may be smart enough to make improvements when needed. (even if it takes 25 years)

quote:

quote:
Why is your experience not in line with RIP's findings when he evaluated the 270 gr FN vs the 300 gr FN?

How does RIPs findings differ from my experience? Both bullets he tested have a S/F more than 2 and tracked straight. Seems to me that supports my view.

Gerard,

You just said a minute ago .... more SF and lower SD is the way to go.
Then you claim RIP agrees with you, when in fact he stated categorically the 300 grainer is better than the 270 grainer.
What a flip-flop !!!
RIP's 300 grainer has more SD and lower SF than the 270 grainer - not so Gerard?

Warrior

Warrior, Truvelloshooter, Chris Bek,

I will use short sentences so that you can follow better.

You started by quoting that I said: "With FN bullets we recommend a stability factor in excess of 2.5 for reliable linear penetration."

Linear means straight, not deep.

You seemed to understand this by confirming that a 9.3 FN "gave absolute straight-line penetration".

Then you quote RIPs evaluation which found a difference in depth. Both bullets were found to penetrate straight, though.

I replied with: "Both bullets he tested have a S/F more than 2 and tracked straight. Seems to me that supports my view."

Now you say: "You just said a minute ago .... more SF and lower SD is the way to go. Then you claim RIP agrees with you,"

Yes, more S/F and less Sd for linear penetration and that is what RIP found.

Then you continue and fret about: "when in fact he stated categorically the 300 grainer is better than the 270 grainer."

RIP said the 300gr FN went deeper than the 270. Not less or more straight.

How do you manage to confuse "straight" with "deep"?

This is what I meant when I said you have difficulty addressing more than one concept at a time.



Macifej,

quote:

Can you tell us from which University you received your PhD in AME?? Which ballistics lab did you work for? Which munitions manufacturer did you work for? Hmmmm...

I assume you have done these things. If you have, ask for you money back (tuition) and give them their money back (salary paid), they taught you squat and you learned little. Least of all astute observation.

quote:

oh exhalted one who copies other's work

I have the patent with another pending. Let's see yours, if there are any.

quote:

since you almost got one of your customers killed with your brilliant driving band crimp feature

The incident that only you know of. You have so many secrets, or should I ask which thumb you sucked that from. I have asked to give me more details about this incident but none is forthcoming. I have to ask: Does it exist only as a figment of your fertile imagination?


Alf,
Pardon the unpleasantness above, you know how it goes. More grist to the mill.

quote:

The incident that only you know of.

The incident that many know of...and if the guy wants to come forward he's here and can do so of his own accord.

The question was put to YOU! Gerard - what are YOUR qualifications? - since you claim this is what distinguishes you from all of us laypeople.

NONE! apparently....as we thought. You are a machinist with a claimed 25 years of tinkering experience...no better than any of the other guys here who can also read and quote other's work and apply it in the field.

Keep digging that hole for yourself...