The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 375's H&H versus Ruger...Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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that is the beauty of America Jeffe, we all get to express our preferences with our debit cards! For a non-DGR hunting rifle the tang safety Rugers are simply awesome. For accuracy the Savage 12 BV-SS-S is the only way to go, and for big things that fight back, CZ or Enfields. I got no problems personally, with Ruger, just don't trip my trigger. Rich DRSS Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost... | |||
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Speaking as a newbie to the 375 caliber and wanting one, I purchased the Ruger African. Cost and weight was a significant factor in my decision. As a handloader, the thought of putting together loads for a brand new cartridge was very appealing also. I hold the H&H in high regard from a historical perspective, and it will be around for a long time to come. It's a venerable cartridge. However, I believe the 375 Ruger will eventually overshadow the 375 H&H like the 300win overshadowed the 300H&H. I haven't heard much from the African guides on the 375 Ruger, but it sounds like it's caught on in Alaska already if Shoemaker is any indication of trends. | |||
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IMHO, the H&H will continue to outsell the Ruger, simply because NObody else is likely to adopt the "new guy". The new M70's will likely stick with the H&H, Remington will not likely chamber for the Ruger design, and nobody else matters in terms of sales. Kimber doesn't have the huevos to drop their too-short for the round action and go to the Ruger...nobody will admit to a mistake these days for fear of a lawsuit. As far as Africa, haven't heard of anybody seeing the ammunition in stores there, and several countries are screwing the hunters by requiring them to have ammunition on an approved list. They have gone about promoting the cartridge the wrong way, also IMHO. When the first rifle shipped from Ruger to distributors, Hornady should have had 50,000 rounds of solids and softpoints sitting in those distributors warehouses the week before. They are also using that "unobtanium" powder to load the ammunition. First, the loads did not meet specs, it shoots with the H&H, not faster. Then the supply issue... When I read about a new "wunderkind", I want to drive over to Cabela's and see one, and ammunition that day, not six to eight months down the road. Rich DRSS Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost... | |||
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Ditto. | |||
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I hate to sound like a Ruger salesman as I am not. But I have used an awful lot of rifles in my life and have yet to see a 375 H&H that feeds any smoother than these new factory Rugers. Try them - as Dave Berry says "I'm not making this up" As for inherent accuracy - how many belted cartridges with long sloping necks do you see on the benchrest firing lines vrs how many short, fat cartridges that headspace on the shoulder? I have not sold any of my 375 H&H rifles - nor do I intend to anytime in the near future - but I'm willing to bet the 375 Ruger is here to stay. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Dave Barry.  | |||
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I think Wby Vanguard and the Howa would be a chance. No competition to Wby's own 378 as evidenced by Wby chambering 375 H&H in Mark V Synthetic. One reason the 375 Ruger (at least initially) may not get chambered in rifles like the Vanguard and other rifles where currently 338 Win is the biggest.....could be due to barrel contour. I think the potential market for the 375 Ruger is for a cheaper 375, sort of a competitor to the 338 Win. I can't see the 375 Ruger making much noise in more expensive rifles, that will be all 375 H&H. It would seem to me that even if Ruger was the only gun maker to sell 375 Rugers then that could add to a lot 375 bore guns. Mike | |||
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Phil, apples and oranges...competition is a whole 'nother game and set of performance priorities. There, the perfect BR rifle would be an air rifle, except they want to shoot at 100/200/300yds. Where else would someone complain about the recoil of a 62gr 6mm bullet at 3200fps in a 13.5lb rifle off the bench disturbing their aim? Target guys want the absolute minimum necessary to do the job. Nobody going up to hunt with you asks what the absolute minimum cartridge is, ditto for Africa...I hope. The reality of the 375 Ruger is: it's primary advantage is in a 3/8" shorter action that weighs all of 4-6 ounces less and is less than half an inch shorter OAL with the same barrel length. Eat ONE Big Mac or Whopper less a month and you can cover that. It offers no realistic advantage in terminal ballistics, no animal on earth can tell the difference at 50yds. I would bet, if you can get us into the Ruger plant; that we will find as much difference in velocity between individual 375R's as there is claimned between the two cartridges. Describe a scenario where the 375 H&H is inadequate, and I'll shoot it with my 416 Rigby or 505 Gibbs, or 550 Gibbs, or 577BME....not a 375R. As Jeff Cooper said when asked about DA autoloaders, "...it's a dumb answer to a question nobody asked...". Here, it's a good answer, but still a question nobody asked. Haven't heard a groundswell of support for it and stories of people hurrying to the gunstores to trade in H&H's for Rugers. As a second voice in support, Ruger hasn't shown the confidence in the cartridge by dropping the old obsolete H&H themselves yet. I would love to see how many of each they sell in 2008. It's a neat cartridge, but who really cares? Rich DRSS Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost... | |||
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It is not about only having to move the bolt back 3/8" less. It is about rifle availability or conversion of existing rifles. Consider the following: 1) The shooter has zero interest in H&H nostalgia. 2) He has a Model 70 in 7mm Rem/300Win/338Win and wants a 375 magnum. 3) Why would he go to the extra trouble of converting to H&H only to wind up with a smaller case capacity than the 375 Ruger. 4) If buying a new rifle then ownership of Rugers in small calibres seems way above CZ. Thus when similar calibres and similar pricing exists it looks like Ruger is the choice over CZ. Well, that situation now exists with the 375 bore size. Of course the reintroduction of the Model 70 might change things if it comes in 375 H&H.  Mike | |||
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If you live and hunt the ABC islands of s.e. Alaska ( where the brown bears are) the stainless RUGER is KING there is no better rifle for the salt water ride by boat then a steep ass climb maybe 3000 ft or more in the rain or a 4 wheeler ride, they just dont rust like other high end stainless guns, but the 338 with a 24 in bbl was your only option. now you can get a short bbl with375 power this is pure genuis on rugers part. stainless rugers are sold by the truckload in s.e. Alaska, i think the 375 ruger will leave the H&H in the dust If your gonna be dumb, you gotta be tuff. | |||
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Wbypower, admittedly the 375 H&H does not match the advertised MV/ME of the Ruger...but then, neither does the Ruger on anybody's chronograph except theirs! People who have purchased them aren't seeing the MV/ME the round claims to have. Today, you are not a serious player in big bores if you do not chamber for the H&H...let me know when somebody else announces production of 375R ammunition and rifles, until then it is a promotion item, not a player. Even Kimber bypassed what would have been a better offering in favor of a known winner...the H&H. Rich DRSS Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost... | |||
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Kimber is a more expensive 375 and as I said a couple of postings ago, I think the 375 Ruger is for cheaper 375 market.
But Ruger does chamber for 375 H&H, different rifle, but still has Ruger name | |||
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That's why I have a Stainless and Laminate stocked Ruger No. 1 in .458 Lott. Where does .375 come into this again?  | |||
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you rarely see a ruger #1 in a gunshop or anywhere around here, my brother had one in 458 and he kept buying it back from people who couldnt handle recoil when he would sell it.any way they are nice but people prefer repeaters in general and gunshops usually dont stock the ruger 375 h&h because of the price. 375 recoil is about as much as most people like to endure .the 45 70 guide gun is real popular here with buffalo bore ammo because it is short and handy on a 4 wheeler this new 375 is short and will offer better trajectory, locals dont as a rule spend a lot of time hunting bears but they do spend a lotof time out hunting deer or fishing on creeks ect, i was bluff charged in august and saw about 10 others ive had to avoid already this year If your gonna be dumb, you gotta be tuff. | |||
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Ruger would have to sell everyone in Alaska a 375R to recoup the cost of tooling and R&D. As far as rebarrels, the number could reach a hundred if everyone here who touts them built one. Ruger GAVE rifles to several gunwriters and treated them to a trip somewhere to hunt free...those are the only folks who have hunted with one that I know of. The Idaho F&G sends a questionaire out. In three months we'll see how many 375R's were used VS 375H&H's here. I'm betting on zero to one 375R. Rich DRSS Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost... | |||
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anukpuk: That's all well and good but I am speaking about me rather than generic "people". I buy guns for me not to measure up to somebody's definition of what the average "people" might want. I'd also wager I can get another round in my No. 1 faster than the majority of the "people" you speak of can operate their bolt. .375 of any kind doesn't seem entirely trustworthy on bears. AS for .375 recoil, I've never noticed it to be much of anything at all. A part of me thinks recoil responses some people have are more fear induced than real. | |||
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Idaho, you seem to be dead set against the Ruger 375 as it doesn't do anything the H&H won't. You can turn that around and say the 375 H&H won't do anything the 375 Ruger can't do better. Either way it is a silly argument. Performance wise they are identical. For what it is worth, I did not receive a free hunt or rifle from Ruger but purchased not one but two with my own $$. I also carried one daily from spring bear season in May untill a week ago when I finished guiding Brown Bear on the peninsula. Both rifles have all the makings of a truly great, classic rifle. How much experience do you have with them? Give one an honest try. Every hunter and guide who handled mine said they wanted one. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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not anti-375R, just see no reason to upgrade for the reasons you mentioned. It's like my friend who works at the local Dodge dealership...I bought a 2004 and 1/4 Dodge Cummins when they announced the new HD 325 horse/600ft/lbs of torque heav(ier)y duty package. 4-door longbox with everything. I had it in for an oil change last month, and he tells me the new MegaCab now comes with a bored and stroked 6.7 liter engine, 350/650. The MC also has eight more inches of legroom in the backseat...I should have one. Mine is paid for, and the tow rating is not much different. Why would I want a new one? The Ruger is the same, it's future relies on competing with the H&H for sales. That takes an industry-wide push, and it ain't gonna happen. There's nothing wrong with it, it just offers no real world advantage. The 375R vs H&H is a testimony to "...if it's new it must be better...", just like the "...all new and improved post-64 Winchester Model 70...". You mentioned not getting a free hunt, do you think Craig Boddington paid his own way to Africa? Did Ruger give you the rifle, and ammunition? I'm not ragging on you, or Ruger, or the cartridge. When you hunt with either, do you marvel at the shorter throw and handy, compact size of the Ruger over an H&H with the same length barrel? Can you tell? My crystal ball says only Ruger among the big 3 will chamber for it, and no other ammo manufacturer will make brass or loaded ammunition for it. It's about a 376 Steyr, and we know the hordes clamoring in line for one of those... Enjoy yours, just don't think anybody will trade a 375 H&H in for one. It's a boutique cartridge. Still friends... Rich DRSS Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost... | |||
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Hmm...Sees to be some wild misconceptions around here... 375 Ruger Feeding? Excellent, just fine. Feeds properly and well. Despite the cries of "H&H feeds better because of the case shape" gun makers have figured out how to make cartridges with a steeper shoulder and straighter case walls feed. I know, hard to believe that we are in 2007, but it's true. Accuracy? Just fine, excellent, just as good as any H&H. Not surprising, since it's just a cartridge like any other one, and they can all be accurate. I have got plenty of 1" or less groups with my Alaskan. I think it's okay for hunting purposes. Velocity? Well, my Alaskan with a 20" barrel gets about the same as an H&H with a 24" barrel. Thats good enough for me. The load I currently use is sending a 260gr Accubond at 2755 fps, using Hornadys max load of H4350. Factory ammo I chronoed came in right where they were supposed to be. I think that is okay, too. Nobody gave me a rifle, nor did they take me to Africa. I have shot one bear with it, though. However, I didn't have to spend $1500 or so on it, like a comparable H&H, nor did I have to have one built for me. I've shown it to a few BC hunting guides, guys that guide for and in remote grizzly country, and they have all said the same thing- "Wow. Perfect bush rifle. Compact. Powerful. Affordable. Trajectory like a 30-06? Do great for sheep as well as grizz." I suspect Phil likes his for the same reasons. 375 Ruger- The NEW KING of the .375's!! | |||
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I have the h + h in the safe, if I was to purchase another, it would be another h + h. The track record on the h + h is extensive and ammo can be purchased almost everywhere. It is hard to beat a proven winner in my book. | |||
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Gatehouse, was the Ruger less than $800US? That's what I paid for my brand new CZ 375H&H in September. I actually saw my first round of 375R the same weekend. Still haven't seen the rifles yet. No offense to anybody, but the number of people who actually need a rifle over 30-06 is not enough to make Ruger's payroll for a week. The vast number of sales are to people who just WANT! a big bore. They have not read Robert Ruark or Hemingway, or Capstick, or Boddington, or ANYBODY speak in hushed reverent tones of the 375R. DG rifle sales are 90% fantasy fueled...dreamers of Africa or Alaskan adventures. They don't care if it is 3/8" longer, or that it weighs a little more than their 7mm Mag, they aren't carrying it much farther than from the tent to a horse or four-wheeler scabbard. They like the weight, because they don't like recoil; but they'll shoot it every now and then just for the "jones". You can have a too-weighty or too-long rifle lightened/shortened to suit pretty easy. If the stubby barrel you have robs you of velocity, there isn't much you can do cheaply, and adding enough weight to make a difference will destroy the balance. I own eight rifles .375 caliber or larger. I like shooting them, but I also like the association, if only in my mind with dangerous game hunting. "...the PH turned to me, bloodshot eyes reflecting the seriousness of the situation...an hour earlier I had put a 300gr solid thru both shoulders of a 51" Buffalo...and the bullet had not only put him down, but had wounded another behind him...now, an hour later, we were crawling in places where the mopane scrub was too thick to penetrate elseways...hoping that each black spot in the undergrowth was our second bull...sssshhh! I think that's our boy up there...nervously I moved up alongside him and flicked the safety of my model 70 off. Companion of half a dozen safaris and trips to Alaska, the familiar feel of the 375H&H was a comforting one. At the metallic sound, the mass of black was up and moving towards us...my mind flashed back to what Robert Ruark wrote half a century ago..."they look at you as if you owe them money"...and at the same time the model 70 pad hit my shoulder, the sights lined up on the bull's nose...tilted up half an inch and the rifle slammed back against my shoulder. As I worked the bolt I remembered the words of wisdom from Phil and Gatehouse; warning me against taking the puny old school Holland to Africa with me for Buffalo. "It's too long a cartridge, the action is a magnum length bolt throw, you'll never be able to work the bolt in time to stop a charge, what if it rains...? Suppose you run into Paris Hilton out there, wouldn't you be embarrassed to be so un-fashionable in front of her...?". The words of the PH snapped me back to reality, "I have clients with bigger guns, but I told you the old 375H&H would do its job if you do yours...". It's going to take twenty years for somebody to write something like that about the 375 Ruger, if they are still chambering them. Rich DRSS Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost... | |||
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I've found that a PH picking you up at the airport with a .375H&H never suggests you brought the wrong rifle. Just my empirical experience. | |||
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ALF, I thought you were first on the backorder list at Wholesale Sports? I recall you typing that here anyway. I guess I was first afterall then. Got an African a few months ago. Wholesale has had a few Alaskan's through. On your second comment above, if they made them the same standard as their other magnums, they would cost the same...ie. twice as much. I don't think they missed the boat at all. Cheers, Canuck | |||
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You don't seem to pay much attention around here. There are reports on the African Forum, Gates posted about his bear on this forum.....  Canuck | |||
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If you were that ambivalent about it, you wouldn't be starting all these threads/polls etc about the 375 Ruger. It seems something about it really bugs you, or you'd just ignore it. Perhaps you just really don't want it to succeed? Are all these threads to convince others to feel the same way as you? A one-man campaign to kill the Ruger before it gets off the ground?  Cheers, Canuck | |||
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Idaho Sharpshooter, Given that the 270 WSM and 300 WSM have been a success, especially the 300...and keeping in mind that the WSMs are a little smaller in case capacity than the 7mm Rem and 300 Win....the 375 Ruger should do well against the 375 H&H because the 375 Ruger is a larger case. Personally, I think forum polls and opinions are long way removed from the real world of buyers. As an example, AR would indicate that there is a 9.3 X 62 behind every second bush. However, bullets made by Hornady, Sierra and Speer would indicate just the opposite. If Ruger/Hormady introduce a 300 Ruger then that will really boost the 375 Ruger. Mike | |||
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I think the Alaskans are great rifles (I've never handled an African) -- it's about the same price as a CZ, but in a much handier, lighter package. It handles wonderfully, has good accuracy, and w. a simple mod by a 'smith, has a wonderful, crisp trigger. Additionally, it has little recoil, esp. given it's weight. I am a person who sold his H&H for a 375R And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor. | |||
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IS, I am in Canada, so we need to compare apples to apples with pricing. I paid about $1100 for the Ruger. Here is the listing for a CZ at Wholesale Sports, Canadas "Cabelas" type store: Features: American pattern style stock • Express sights (1 standing and 2 folding) • Fixed magazine • Mag. Cap.: 5 (Rigby - 3) • Controlled round feed and fixed ejector • Rate of twist: 1:14" • Wt.: 9.9 lbs. • O.A.L.: 46.5" • Barrel Length: 25" • Dovetail: 0.7". Walnut: "Fancy Grade" black walnut. Laminate: Brown laminate. CZ 550 AMERICAN SAFARI MAGNUM · Walnut Caliber: 375 H&H Mfr. # PFA550063 · 227772 $1,599.95 As you can see, the CZ is not only more money, but it lacks some features I personally find desirable in my Ruger Alaskan. It's heavier, longer, it's not stainless and it has a 2 position safety. CZ's are decent rifles, but I prefer Ruger. The factt hat you haven't personally seen the rifles does not mean they do not exist; I shot mine today in my back yard, and I assure you it was real.
Well, all but Boddington are dead, so I am reasonably sure we won't be getting much out of them. Boddington has written at least one article on the 375 Ruger, though.
Dreaming is a good enough reason to get a big gun. They may not care about weight or length, but I do. Most of the guys that buy Alaskans probably care about it to some degree. At least they have the option.
The "stubby" barrel is one of the things that makes this rifle so appealing to me. Ruger and Hornady claim 375 H&H velocities from a 20" barrel. According to my chrono, Hornady factory ammo and my handloads all achieve velocity that is claimed. I've mentioned that the load I am using shoots a 260gr Accubond at 2755fps. It appears to work fine. The rifle is comfortable to shoot. It requires no more weight.
While your story is amusing, it's not even close to accurate. Nobody has been saying the 375 H&H is a bad choice. We are saying that there are other choices, too. Here, I will say it again: It's not about how bad the H& is, it's about how good the Ruger is.
How long did it take until some famous writer wrote about the H&H? There has already been written about the Ruger, in actual fact.  375 Ruger- The NEW KING of the .375's!! | |||
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375 Ruger- The NEW KING of the .375's!! | |||
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Gatehouse, points well taken, but to sell the 375R has to be better, and the numbers do not support that. I bought a new CZ for less than the 375R would have cost me, and...oh, yeah, they had them in stock...not back ordered. They also had 375H&H ammunition and dies in stock. I am glad you are happy with the rifle, it's the way we should be after wanting one for a while and shelling out the $$$ for one. It just does not seem that many people share your view and back it up by buying one. There's nothing wrong with the cartridge, it's also true that there is nothing wrong with the H&H; and a clearcut advantage is the primary reason to get the 375R instead if you are shopping. For the same $$$ you can have a 458WM, and if you hunt dangerous game, the 458 is a much better choice. It's what Phil packs often, from what I have read. I would have to see a lot more difference to convince me to get a 375R. Rich DRSS Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost... | |||
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Alf, I am sorry that they sent the rejects to Canada. They are not all that bad. Ruger, CZ, Whitworth, Winchester Classic and Pre-64: These are a few of my favorite 375's. I like them all. The .375 Ruger Hawkeye is a phenomenally good buy when compared to any other mass produced rifle ever made.  | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 375's H&H versus Ruger...
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