I am working up loads for a 458WinMag. I am shooting a 500grain bullet. What velocity must one attain for this bullet to be considered a stopper??

What about the 450gr TSX bullets??

This rifle weighs 8.5 pounds, and is generating 56+ft/lbs of free recoil at 2058fps. The object is to achieve the goal (stopping) at the lowest possible velocity, ie, pain level. Kudude

Ha! If you haven't bought my book, and Taylor's African Rilfes and Cartridges, you really should.

Everyone will chime in about there is no such thing as a stopper, blah, blah, but you need about 5000 ft-lbs and at least a 400 gr. bullet to have a decent chance at knocking anything down or out.

To get that you need almost 2150 fps and your 450 gr. at about 2250 fps.

May all the contrary anecdotes now follow....

I agree with Will, and think it is easier to get 2250 with a 450 than 2150 with 500.
The 450 still has a SD of .306, and I really think it would do better as a standard factory loading than the 500. I think A2 did a splendid job with their 465 grs loading.

..............Wow this is great ....I totally agree.......I haven,t got a good 500 gr bullet load in my 458 , and I,ve tried many combos .....I had pretty high hopes for the Remington Premium Safari ammo loaded with the 450 gr Swift ., but I never got even 2100 fps from it with 3 different barrels , the longest of which is 25" ....But the 450 gr TSX , ect,, will get 2200 fps at least which is c lose to the 5 k ft lb threshold ......

quote:

Originally posted by kudude:
I am working up loads for a 458WinMag. I am shooting a 500grain bullet. What velocity must one attain for this bullet to be considered a stopper??

What about the 450gr TSX bullets??

This rifle weighs 8.5 pounds, and is generating 56+ft/lbs of free recoil at 2058fps. The object is to achieve the goal (stopping) at the lowest possible velocity, ie, pain level. Kudude

..................................Lighter bullets equal less pain in the neck .....If you have to get that velocity [2150]fps with a 500 gr bullet , would it be possible to go to a larger case , like the 458 AR or Lott ect....That way you can get 2150 fps with fairly mild pressure ........or 150 fps more velocity with the same pressure ....?????

Hornady 458 WM Heavy Magnums chronographed 2083 fps (Oehler chrono reading 10' from muzzle) in my Ruger No.1 (24" bbl)........

I never chronographed any handloads in the WM....Only my Lott....

I find it interesting though that the Heavy Mags fell pretty short of their advertised velocity (2200+)....

Agree with Will- Hard and fairly bitter experience has shown that good steel jacketed 500grn bullets at 2000fps from the .458 are marginal on frontal brain shots on elephant.

In my Lott I load 450grn Barnes banded solids and TSX's at 2325fps. I haven't had to use one yet, but two of the lads I do loads for have and that certainly works just fine!

At one time Nimrod ammo loaded 480grn woodleigh bullets (with the canelure in the correct place for a WM!) at a genuine 2150fps, and those rounds worked well.

Will,
I bought your book. I even read it, found it interesting and enjoyable. Thanks. K-d

Others,
I agree with your observations about attainable velocity. My experiments indicate I should be able to obtain 2080-2100fps with the powder I am using (IMR4895 is giving me 2060 at 71gr w/o pressure signs and max is stated as 72.5gr. I am getting approx 10fps/.5gr additional powder.) However, it won't make 2150.

More importantly, at the current velocity with an 8.5lb rifle, I am getting more recoil (58ft/lbs) than one would get with a 10.5lb Lott at 2150 (54ft/lbs), and I am at my personal recoil limit. I am trying to avoid adding weight to the rifle because it is so handy; however, I don't think that this is going to be possible if I stick with 500gr bullets.

The 450 load at 2250fps generates in the 8.5lb rifle the same recoil (58ft/lbs) I am getting with the 500gr bullet at 2060fps. I am coping with this level of punishment.

What 450gr bullets do you recommend?? Where can I get them?? Does Gerard make them and could I get them shipped or have an African friend ship them to me?? What soft point?? What solid?? Kudude

I have no recommendations for 450 gr. bullets, solids anyway, as North Fork as disappeared. I think the Mod. 70 I had was right at 8.5 lbs. or a bit less and found it tolerable, but apparently not in your case. Of course the other thing you can do is just save the high powered loads for hunting and use ~2000 fps for practice. I mostly shoot the squibs in my 7.5 lb. Taylor so I don't get punchy.

If it was I, I would try to get 2150 with the 500 gr. bullets and if you can really tell much difference, then just stick with what you have now. In real life the velocity drops off in a hurry, so how many yards does it take to get a 2150 fps muzzle velocity down to 2050 fps? 50 yards?

You'll just have to get that much closer to the animal to make up for it!

What you could do, also, is to do a search on loads on the subject in the past. In fact, JPK has turned me onto some different cominations that work and I've gotten the velocities I wanted with a bit of tweaking.

I can get right at 2150 fps with a 500 grain Woodleigh solid and 65.5 grains of RL-7 with a F215M primer. Get right at 2200 fps with a 480 grain Woodleigh solid and 66 grains of RL-7 with a F215M primer. Both out of a 24" barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by kudude:
Will,
I bought your book. I even read it, found it interesting and enjoyable. Thanks. K-d

Others,
I agree with your observations about attainable velocity. My experiments indicate I should be able to obtain 2080-2100fps with the powder I am using (IMR4895 is giving me 2060 at 71gr w/o pressure signs and max is stated as 72.5gr. I am getting approx 10fps/.5gr additional powder.) However, it won't make 2150.

More importantly, at the current velocity with an 8.5lb rifle, I am getting more recoil (58ft/lbs) than one would get with a 10.5lb Lott at 2150 (54ft/lbs), and I am at my personal recoil limit. I am trying to avoid adding weight to the rifle because it is so handy; however, I don't think that this is going to be possible if I stick with 500gr bullets.

The 450 load at 2250fps generates in the 8.5lb rifle the same recoil (58ft/lbs) I am getting with the 500gr bullet at 2060fps. I am coping with this level of punishment.

What 450gr bullets do you recommend?? Where can I get them?? Does Gerard make them and could I get them shipped or have an African friend ship them to me?? What soft point?? What solid?? Kudude

................................. ......................Hopefully I can say this without getting ed .....My 458 is light like yours ,,,, ...,.The way I hold down recoil is with the muzzle brake ,,,the factory canoe paddle stock ,and a Pacmeyer Decelerator pad .. ...For your load development and blasting , haveing a brake installed will tame it down to 375 H&H levels or less ....If you get a thread protector cap with the brake you can unscrew the brake for hunting . .,.,., ....Something to watchout for if you do that ,, is make sure the scope , if there is one on the rifle is far enough foward so you don,t get ringed ......When you are hunting the recoil won,t be noticed ,,, But a brake helps with getting to be friends with your rifle .......That will help you place your shots precisely where they are supposed to be ............

quote:

In real life the velocity drops off in a hurry, so how many yards does it take to get a 2150 fps muzzle velocity down to 2050 fps? 50 yards?

On my ballisitc software using Hornady solids youd be down to 2051 fps by 37 yards...

Gumboot,
I have nothing against brakes. They have their place. No flames from me.

Trophyhunter,
Ain't it amazin' how fast the big pills slow down! That is one potential benefit of the 450 TSX style bullets. They are a little more streamlined. Kudude

The .458 with a good handload at 2000 FPS plus some is all I would every require...I have used the 450-3 1/4" at 2050 FPS and the 470 at 2020 FPS and never found either one of them wanting..re: 500 gr. bullets.

I can get 2150 out of a long tubed .458 pretty easy, but its a warm compacted load for sure..I opt to punch the chamber out to a Lott and shoot it at 2250 FPS, mild of pressure and kills very well.

I am sure the 450 gr. bullet is a viablel option, but doubt the 400 gr. has the SC to satisfy me...

First, my rifle has 26" barrels.

My load for 500gr Woodleighs gives 2145fps. H4895 is better for 450's than 500's in my experience. The best powder for the 458wm is AA2230, which I use for the 500's. My load is a middlin' load in the Hornaday book - but I'm using Woodleighs and they referred me to the Hornaday book.

I use H4895 with North Fork 450's and drive them at 2200fps. H4895 burns cleaner with the 450's than AA2230 does and that is the only reason I use it instead. This is a midlin' load as well. Several years ago Mike Brady kindly volunteered to pressure test this load for me because he was concerned about my 458wm double rifle and the load tested well below max. He was also kind enough to send me correction data to adjust my load, which was for his old bullet, to his new bullet.

I find no loss of impact with the 450's at 2200fps compared to the 500's at 2145fps. Both loads have knocked ele cows down and out with less than perfect frontal brain shots. The North Forks give much better penetration. In lieu of North Fork solids I would use GS Custom's 450gr flat nose solid.

{Edited to add that the 500 Woodleighs always exit the skull on front or side brain shots and most of the time for broadside shots on ele cows; the North Forks always exit. On Bulls, I have no experience with the North Forks but the Woodleighs exit on side brain shots (haven't had th opportunity to dig for bullets after a frontal brain shot on a bull) and penetrate sufficiently on broadside shots, but do not exit the bulls. Either load and either bullet does the job, I far prefer the North Forks though.}

BTW, no compaction issues with either round, no drop tubes, no vibrating... no issues.

If you would like info on my loads shoot me a PM. I put them on forums before, only to have a couple of people jump right to them without working up and also substitute bullets - in particular, a couple of guys substituted the 450 Barnes for the North Fork, against all advice, "rules", common sense... So I'm done posting them in the open, but I'll be happy to do it by PM.

JPK

Gotta agree with that. People are stupid like that, some think that one can just substitute one bullet for another. They get into deep shit and then try to blame the poster for their own dumbass mistake.

I get a chronoed 2130 to 2165 with H4895 and the 500 grainer. It killed two Cape buff with no problem. I think I was using 73 or 74 grains out of a stock CZ 550 in 458 Win. Mag.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I can get right at 2150 fps with a 500 grain Woodleigh solid and 65.5 grains of RL-7 with a F215M primer. Get right at 2200 fps with a 480 grain Woodleigh solid and 66 grains of RL-7 with a F215M primer. Both out of a 24" barrel.

MJines,
Can you tell, on the 480 grs, did you seat to the cannelure, ore et the bullet longer out?
480 grs should really be the standard for the .458Winmag, as it was for the NE's.
Thanks,

Bent,

I seat the bullet at the cannelure. Compared to the 500 grain Woodleigh, the 480 grain bullet actually has more bullet below the cannelure (takes up more case capacity) than the 500 grain Woodleigh, although the bullet is shorter. With 66 of RL-7 there is very, very little compression.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Several years ago Mike Brady kindly volunteered to pressure test this load for me because he was concerned about my 458wm double rifle and the load tested well below max.

And you wonder why these nice guys go out of business?

quote:

Ain't it amazin' how fast the big pills slow down! That is one potential benefit of the 450 TSX style bullets. They are a little more streamlined. Kudude

Yup...

I think it's a good thing to factor into your hand loads when trying to stay within the bullets recomended impact velocity...

I figure that you could start 50-100 fps over the recomended impact velocity for most round nose softs and be at or under the proper velocity by 25 yards or so...

quote:

Originally posted by trophyhunter5000:
Hornady 458 WM Heavy Magnums chronographed 2083 fps (Oehler chrono reading 10' from muzzle) in my Ruger No.1 (24" bbl)........

I never chronographed any handloads in the WM....Only my Lott....

I find it interesting though that the Heavy Mags fell pretty short of their advertised velocity (2200+)....

I chrono'd the Heavy Mags in my CZ Lott a few years ago and the best I saw was right around 2,150 fps......

I also chronograhed some Hornady 458 Win ammo that is advertised at 2,260 fps last year. Out of a 22" barrel it went 2,089 and 2,133 out of the 24" barrel of a Remington rifle.

465H&H

Anyone chronograph Hornady's Lott loadings that claim 2300 fps. Just wonder if they are full of it all the way around?

I got 2,202 out of the 22" barrel of my Lott with that Hornady load.

465H&H

Lets see, let me try to answer the question asked. IMHO in the .458 win mag 2150fps with 500gr monometal solids makes a good stopper IF and ONLY IF you hit an african Big 5 animal in the Head or spine. Nothing else will actually stop them. Shot placement is more important than Energy! 10,000 ft lbs in the foot only pisses them off. The bigger the bore the larger the margin for error thats it and there just isn't that much margin period. Sound advise is shoot the biggest gun you can really shoot accurately.-Rob

Went to the range this morning. Shot three rounds of Hornady .458 Win Mag RN HM (the 500 grain flat point solid). I have an FN action with a 23 inch Shilen barrel. I got 2147, 2126 and 2140 versus the 2200+ claimed. It was cool but not cold.

I'd like to thank everyone who has responded. You all have made such helpful observations and suggestions.

I looked around last night on the web for 450 and 480 gr bullets. And, Mike and JPK have given me two alternative powders, RL7 and AA2230, for 500grainers.

Ray, as always, its great to hear from you. I hope you are hale and hearty.

I couldn't agree more with Rob that accuracy kills. Thanks again. Kudude

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Went to the range this morning. Shot three rounds of Hornady .458 Win Mag RN HM (the 500 grain flat point solid). I have an FN action with a 23 inch Shilen barrel. I got 2147, 2126 and 2140 versus the 2200+ claimed. It was cool but not cold.

close enough

quote:

Originally posted by makeminestainless:
Anyone chronograph Hornady's Lott loadings that claim 2300 fps. Just wonder if they are full of it all the way around?

The same day I chronographed the Heavy Mag ammo I also chrono'd both soft and solid Hornady factory Lott ammo and all of it as at or nearly 2300 fps. Again, out of my CZ Lott.

...........With my CZ 550 458 Lott I got 2260 fps with the Hornady factory FMJ .........It was about 22 deg. F at the range ..........The big suprise came when I chronographed some 458 Win mag ammo in the Lott ...My Win mag has a 19.5 "Shilen stainless steel barrel , the Lott has a 25 " factory CZ barrel ..........I had left the ammo in the truck over night so it was close to the outside temp......................................................................... the 300gr Barnes X bullet [[MOLY TUMBLED]]] with 73 gr H 4198 and a WLRM primer went 2640 fps.in the win mag .and 2705 fps in the Lott............................ With the Fed 215 primer it went 2720 fps in the Win mag . . ...........The Remington Premium Safari 450 gr Swift load went 2076 fps in the Win and 2087 fps in the Lott....The box says it goes 2150 fps which is still too slow , but acceptable , but 2075 is bareley above 45/70 ballistics ......................My favorite Lott load,is the 350 gr TSX molied pushed by the max charge [in the Barnes book ] of H4198 and lit with a fed 215 primer .....It averages 2720 fps also ...The trajectories between it and my Win mag load are so simular as to be the same to 300 yards ....I,m sure looking fwd to useing some GSCustom bullets this spring ....

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Went to the range this morning. Shot three rounds of Hornady .458 Win Mag RN HM (the 500 grain flat point solid). I have an FN action with a 23 inch Shilen barrel. I got 2147, 2126 and 2140 versus the 2200+ claimed. It was cool but not cold.

close enough

I would hunt anything, anywhere with that load. Its right at what my loads run and they are enough. You can do better handloading though.

Edited to add that the Hornaday ammo is as fast or faster than the great majority of real 450NE rifles (as opposed to the nominal velocity which is 2150fps for the 3 1/4" version - out of a 28" barrel and 2175fps out of the No2 - again out of a 28" barrel), which have more than a century of success behind them, and they were shooting the round nose 480 grain solid, not a flat meplat 500!

JPK

I run about 800-1,000 rounds a year through my 458 WM's. Just recently I started using Ramshot X-terminator powder under 500 gr bullets. At my last range session I got an avg. of 2,153 fps with an extreme spread of 20 fps. Oh, it also groups them into about 1.2 MOA. I'm sticking with this one and, as a pair of bonus', you can buy the Ramshot powders for under $16/lb., and they flow through a progressive powder measure like water! What's not to like.

TMc

.......TMC , welcome to the forums .... Have you tried the Xterminator powder with any lighter bullets in the 458 ??? ....What rifle do you shoot ,,,How do you have it set up ???

quote:

Originally posted by tmc:
... Just recently I started using Ramshot X-terminator powder under 500 gr bullets. At my last range session I got an avg. of 2,153 fps with an extreme spread of 20 fps. Oh, it also groups them into about 1.2 MOA. ...

I never thought about Ramshot powders for the .458 Win Mag. So I went to their web site and looked up the load data.



Looks interesting. I'm currently having a .458 Win Mag built. When it's finished I'll have to try out the Ramshot X-terminator loads.

-Bob F.

I also have a 458 WM in the works. I'm trying AA2230 when the rifle gets done or when warm weather arrives, whichever occurs last.

According to Accurate Powder's website, the pressure associated with the 500 gr. Hornady at 2159 fps is 53,808 psi, somewhat less than Ramshot but probably not noticeable.

Yeah, I plan on trying out AA2230 also. Phil Shoemaker really likes it in his .458 Win Mag. (I've been reading his posts over on the 24 Hour Campfire forums.)



The AA2460 data (with the 500 gr Hornady) looks interesting too.

================================================
#1454486 - 05/27/07
A lot of folks are still hung up on a few bad reviews of older 458 Win ammo. If they would actually try loads with powders like AA2230 they would see that the 458 Win indeed does equal - and often best - the old nitro cartridges that they dearly love. After fifty years, the 458 is better than ever and a true big bore classic.
_________________________
Phil Shoemaker
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php...rch=true#Post1454486

#1454952 - 05/27/07
Finn Aagaard always claimed that most of the 458 bashing was due to hunters blaming their ammo for their poor shooting. Currently Don Heath, Charlie Haley and Mike LaGrange, who as you know, are three of the foremost ballistic experts in Africa (with many years and many thousands of elephants to their credit) claim that the current 458 Win is one of the best elephant cartridges. Elephants and buffalo are not my field but I can verify that good 500gr bullets @ 2100fps drops big bears with the authority of a crane falling on them.
_________________________
Phil Shoemaker
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php...rch=true#Post1454952
================================================


-Bob F.

It wasn't long ago that Don Heath was still bad-mouthing the 458 WM, until we set him straight!

I don't know why but Mike at North Fork was recommending AA2230 with his 450 gr. bullets, but specifically not recommending the use of AA2460. ????

I have no clue why Mike didn't recommend AA2460. Maybe a powder compression issue or something? Hopefully, someone will chime in that knows. But, with Mike and Phil Shoemaker both recommending AA2230 it seems like a powder that is worth a try.


An article that may be of interest since Phil Shoemaker mentioned Charlie Haley:

What is wrong with the .458?
Not much, states the author, who contends that this calibre is mainly a victim of bad press.
by Charlie Haley
http://www.african-hunter.com/WhatsWrong.htm

-Bob F.