Hey guys,

I was wondering what the easiest fix (that would really work!) would be to have my whitworth express stop dropping the contents of its 458's on the ground when I touch off a round. It has the release in the trigger guard. Other than that issue it is a sweet rifle and in 98% condition. Will a heavier spring work or slightly recutting the hinge side of the magazine square? The darned thing has a bevel going to wrong way for heavy recoil in my opinion.

Thanks all,
Sean

Interesting to hear of your dilemma, as it seems rare nowadays to come across this. When I acquired my Mauser 404 brought out from Africa it had the magazine floor plate glued shut as was the 'fashion' at times it seems for bolt actions used on DG in Africa. I unglued it and it has never shown any tendency to open under recoil.

It is hard to understand how the floor plate can release as you would think the recoil rearwards would tend to force the hinged catch forward aided by the spring rather than backwards to release the plate.

Maybe the knurled thumb release (lower) part of the hinged lever is heavier than top catch part and if the spring is weakened then this lower part essentially goes forward under recoil or actually stays in place and the rifle recoils rearwards opening the catch as you would with your thumb. If this is the reason why some floor plates with the catch in the trigger bow release under recoil then a heavier spring is likely the solution. My Mauser release is quite heavy to push with your thumb and needs to be hard flush with the trigger bow to allow the plate to drop.

Duct tape or a heavy rubber band (for if you don't solve this before hunting DG.) Sorry...

Some have resorted to welding/soldering in place the drop plate. Stay tuned.

Glued shut? Well I was hoping for a better way than that but it also is for a working gun in this case so maybe the old ways were a good idea. Might as well be a blind magazine and I guess that's what it would become really. The design of the latch is a dumb one on this rifle. I love the gun and it's a keeper but what an pain in the ass!

My MRC in 375 AI did the same on my first shot on a monster Eland. Not everyone has this luxury but I found the heaviest coil of the correct diameter in my Wolff's "All springs" selection from Brownells and made a new spring. It takes nearly all I have to compress it to open but it doesn't pop open on it's own. You could certainly heavy up the spring in the Whitworth.

Are you letting your firing hand slide forward under recoil? If so, your finger could be bumping the lever, especially if you have fat fingers or put your finger way in the trigger guard. A fix for that would be to grind it down like a 1909 Argentine release lever. See the lower action in the picture below. (Not my actions - just a picture)

First I insure the notch was clean and I was getting full engagement. On my 458 I did end up doing the same thing as Grenadier. Problem solved.

quote:

Originally posted by Sean1975:
Glued shut? Well I was hoping for a better way than that but it also is for a working gun in this case so maybe the old ways were a good idea. Might as well be a blind magazine and I guess that's what it would become really. The design of the latch is a dumb one on this rifle. I love the gun and it's a keeper but what an pain in the ass!

Yes I certainly wasn't advocating gluing yours shut but I suppose that would be a last resort if you cannot solve before a hunt or even if it happened during a hunt
Would be a pain to have a blind magazine on a controlled round feed - push feed is easy to empty the mag just popping up each round and allowing them to roll out into your hand.

I think in the 'old' days they covered all bases and there are accounts of tyro safari hunters dropping the floor plate open in their bumbling and fumbling when facing a charge. The story also goes that a famous early film star out hunting while on location in Africa cycled every round out of the magazine of his rifle without firing a shot when facing a charge or given the order to shoot.

Hope you can try a stronger spring.

Good thoughts all. Grenadier, I can say I'm not hitting the release inside the guard. I tested that earlier and I can say I was no where near the darned thing. I would hate to glue it shut and I will try the heavy spring thought first and see if that works. If not then I will have to bond it shut if all else fails. I don't suppose there is a replacement type floor plate that one can buy that is better? I think I already know the answer to that question .... Thanks guys!

Sean

my 338/06 was doing the same thing.

I removed the spring and put a BB under it and then reassembled and it has worked fine every since.

Better spring and cleaning up any other imperfections and imbalances might be best, but I had one back in 1986 that did the same,
and fixed it differently. That is a stainless 8x40 slotted head screw. Better than gluing the floorplate shut, IMHO:



Life is too short not to tolerate ugly rifles, if you want to play with hundreds of them.
That is a .416 Barnes Supreme, a circa 1949 wildcat that is very similar to the .416 Remington.
A year or two after I had it made, Remington came out with the .416 Remington.
Willis Fowler, Gunsmith, said he was allergic to epoxy, so that was one of the first rifles I ever glass bedded myself,
with a cheap fiberglass M98 stock and black Krylon spray paint. Shoots well.
The screw through the floorplate was a fitting accent.
Plenty of solid steel under there for drilling and tapping the screw hole threads.
None of my other Mark X Whitworth rifles have had any such problem with the floorplate popping open in recoil.

I've used large rubber band for this problem with success. AIU

I note Sean mentioned reshaping his floor plate catch to get rid of the bevel, I have just been out to the range with my 404 shooting some cast loads so took the time to check out the lip on the floor plate while cleaning the rifle after the range session. This is an Oberndorf sporter and the small lip on the floor plate is beveled both sides so it clips shut nicely with out having to push the release and also opens smoothly when the release button is thumbed fully forward in the trigger bow. The floor plate does snick shut very firmly.

Has to be spring tension to solve the issue Sean has.

Rip,

Not a bad idea with the screw RIP. I think that's the route I want to go. Thanks everyone for your ideas and help.

I think if you find the right gunsmith he might be able to add steel to the mating surfaces in the latch and then re do the angels involved and the result should be bomb proof.

http://echolsrifles.blogspot.s...e-release-latch.html

However, I am sure superglue is a lot less costly.

Best of luck!

Disclaimer, I am not a gunsmith and have no technical education or background!

quote:

Originally posted by Sean1975:
Rip,

Not a bad idea with the screw RIP. I think that's the route I want to go. Thanks everyone for your ideas and help.

Yes in a plastic fantastic I suppose a screw is not going to make any difference to the 'value' of the gun (I also have a plastic job so am not biased) but in effect for field use you are ending up with a blind magazine. In that case for a Whitworth Express if you want or need a blind magazine because the catch is not working why not just epoxy glue it shut. At least this can be undone at anytime leaving the rifle original?

The screw does allow opening the floorplate to assist in clearing a jamb in the field, without a propane torch,
and cleaning anytime, and then re-securing without allowing time to let the re-glue re-set.

Or just use a piece of duct tape, or electrician's tape to strap it shut.
Good way to carry spare tape for your muzzle (beats condoms or balloons) to keep mud dauber wasps out of your barrel between shots.

The vinyl electricians tape goes over my muzzles,
and it won't mar the finish of metal or wood, no sticky duct tape residue hassle,
if you use it to "reversibly" secure the floorplate.
Several strips could be used for a nice zebra camo effect.

Rip, ummm... All true points but I'll skip the zebra striped look thanks! The screw is going in tomorrow to hold the plate. My smith tried everything and it still blows open. This is less expensive than a new custom fitted plate and I know it'll work! Thanks again guys. I'll update later...

Best,
Sean

quote:

Originally posted by Sean1975:
Rip, ummm... All true points but I'll skip the zebra striped look thanks! The screw is going in tomorrow to hold the plate. My smith tried everything and it still blows open. This is less expensive than a new custom fitted plate and I know it'll work! Thanks again guys. I'll update later...

Best,
Sean

Okay I admit defeat, would love the challenge of fixing the 'proper' way but I guess you have to be practical in your situation. Any chance of a photo of the bevelled lip on your floor plate? Would be interesting to compare with a working Mauser one.

Eagle,

I already the bugger drilled, tapped and a screw installed and locktite added or I would send a picture in for all to see. I'm sorry I didn't think of it before! I can say my smith did the work and it looks like it came from the factory with the screw and after many tests it has held brilliantly with no movement of any kind. It is a solid fix but I can break it free if on a hunt and I need to since blue locktite was used. Thanks again to RIP for the idea. It's making the best of a bad situation. Is a wonderful rifle just wish the floor plate on mine had been right from the beginning. Btw, extra power springs didn't help either. Stubborn SOB.

You don't need any loctite.
In fact, but some oil or grease on those threads to keep it easy to unscrew and it will be plenty secure.

Good man, Sean.

I couple beads of tig weld and a file is the way I fixed the few I had issues with. First verify the latch needs to be push all the way before releasing. If it releases at the halfway point you need to extend the floorplate tongue that engages the latch. Also pull the latch out and put it on the outside of the bow using a longer pin or punch and you will see where the improper mating surface issue is. This is very common with all those cheap guards sarco and gpc sells.
Don

My 458's floorplate was doing the same thing,,a trip to the gunsmith and it's perfect now. It will still open but it takes a lot of pressure,,perfect!!

Tig it up and recut the lip if the fit is short, then add a stronger spring for good measure, usually just a stronger spring will fix the problem 99% of the time. I add a stronger spring to all of them.

75 rounds so far in one sitting of full charge 458 and no movement of the floor plate. I'm convinced it's fixed. Not convinced exedrin is worth the money spent however. Right arm a bit tingly. Mixed bench work and standing. No recoil shield just a t shirt. Not bad till round 60 something. I'll not do that again for a bit.
RIP, I had him use loctite only because I was so damned mad it kept happening I wanted it done... Period. Might have to go back in there and change things if others on here as well as you concur it won't open on its own in any way. Never again do I want that issue. Remove the loctite? What say you all?

Thanks for all the help and replies guys!
Sean

I never loctited mine, just oiled it, and it never came loose.
Check for tightness with a fingernail or screwdriver once a year.
It actually is doing very little work there, not high stress,
and you can see from the orientation of the screw head slot if it is unscrewing.

I would at least break the blue loctite loose once,
then screw it back in and leave it like that, with the remnants of the loctite on the threads.
That will verify that it is easy to open in the field, to clean or clear a jam.

That is what I call "half-assed-loctited" like you find on some factory rifles with little dots of blue on the threads of the action screws.

Tape, rubber bands, glue, locktite? where do you folks live, in Appalachia or Mexico?

Put a stonger spring in it! they cost 35 cents and stronger springs work 99.9% of the time, otherwise replace the floor plate with a new one or weld and recut the one on it to fit, still recommend a new spring on any big bore...at worst its inexpensive fix.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Tape, rubber bands, glue, locktite? where do you folks live, in Appalachia or Mexico?

Sir, I resemble that remark!

A small Allen socket button head cap screw would look MUCH better and match the color of the floor plate, would be almost invisible and just as effective....just carry the correct Allen wrench...on a chain around your neck if you are prone to losing small items...that's what I do...

WHY would a blind mag cause any trouble emptying out...you can run the rounds into the chamber and turn the bolt down a tad, enough to lock the found into the claw extractor, and empty the mag very quickly...you DON'T have to crank the handle down all the way to pick up the case.

Yes, a countersunk, flush-fitting screw of some other type could be used, pretty as you please.
Socket-head screw with hex key would turn that screw into a quick-detachable floorplate catch.

But, some of us in Appalachia prefer the bold, accented look of a proud and stainless screw on a floorplate that has been blued and then parkerized black,
back in the days before Cerakote, Gunkote, etc., ever got into the hollers hereabouts.

It is possible to get a tie-up of a cartridge down inside a box under field conditions, and not be able to cycle them from box to chamber.
Also cleaning is easier if you can open the box if you had ice, snow, rain, dust, mud, vegetation, insects, and whatever get in your box.
It happens.
Even in Appalachia.

I find the screw idea rather strange, why not sort the problem out by figuring out why most floor plates are fine with the trigger bow release while the odd one is not. Could it be a bedding issue with the whole bottom plate flexing under recoil and allowing the magazine floor plate tongue to flex out of the latch? There has to be a logical fixable reason why the odd rifle does this without resorting to screws or glue as a 'fix' for the problem.

I think the idea of glue in earlier times was to prevent the tyro hunter from opening the magazine when under pressure in the field, it was not necessarily used because there was a fault with the rifle. My Mauser mag plate was glued shut when I acquired it but it has never shown any tendency to open after I restored it to normal operation so obviously was just glued as a precaution against a tyro using the rifle.

This is a problem with MANY solutions...just as everyone has opinions, WHICH solution is based on YOUR opinions.

Just do the one that fits your pistol, be it simple or complicated, what YOU think is right or wrong and be done with it...finding a solution that works for you is the only "CORRECT" solution...the rest are just thoughts on a way to the fade out place.

Ruger solved the problem by installing a heavier spring, changing the direction and shape of the release from a " grooved hump" on the inside of the trigger guard pushing toward the outside to a countersunk and flattened lever on the outside of the guard and pushed in to release and also changed the location of the hinge point also.

I wish those MkII trigger guards would fit my old tang style Ruger's...I would change them all over.

You're right RIP and for those that REALLY want to get FANCY-SHMANCY, they could do the WAY old commercial mauser style 90° very un-obtrusive and well designed small streamlined lever...THAT'S the CORRECT way to solve this particular problem...a totally labor intensive, beautiful, effective way of doing it.

Of course if you like bright and shiny so's to scare away the game and being from a "holler", you could always have it nickel plated or better yet, CHROME plated. Hahahahahahaha

RIP,

I'm giving my MK X 458 a face lift and the gunsmith is doing the screw thing on the floor plate. It can't open under recoil if you check it's tightness on occasion and it can be opened if you somehow get a jam. Beautiful to the eye it ain't but functionally its gorgeous.

Mark

I've visually prefer the look of within trigger guard release lever such as the '09 Argie, with a release button installed on the lever tip, or the Oberndorf' Small or Large style trigger guard floor plate release bottom metals. Visually the extended button, the lever installed on the bottom of the floor plate or the button on the side of the trigger guard (Zastava) don't work for me. But to each there own...

Anyway back to the within trigger guard release lever. It appears your issues are related to a minimal fit between the floor plate and the release lever. Unfortunately I don't recollect who was recently offering machined replacement within trigger guard lever with button but perhaps someone will. Anyway, these levers were slightly oversize requiring installation by a gunsmith or an individual possessing gun smithing skills. The rational for being overside was to assure sufficient excess metal to allow the lever to be properly fitted to the individual trigger guard shape And a proper engagement for the floor plate being used. It's right on the tip of the brain cells but I just don't recollect who offers the lever.

If someone is using other milsurp bottom metal and wants the exposed lever on the bottom, Meier Works offers one that your gunsmith can install that seems to look and work very well. Not my cup of tea but again to each there own...

Duct tape, rubber bands and glue. All from the guys who won't hunt with a 700 because its a push feed. . Before you go bubba on it and pound a roofing nail in it try cleaning it.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
RIP,

I'm giving my MK X 458 a face lift and the gunsmith is doing the screw thing on the floor plate. It can't open under recoil if you check it's tightness on occasion and it can be opened if you somehow get a jam. Beautiful to the eye it ain't but functionally its gorgeous.

Mark

Congratulations, Mark.

We need to have a prettiest screw contest.
Post photos, do a member poll for winner.
I know it won't be me.
Screwing can be fun.

Gee this is bugging me but lets look at the screw concept. Why not make up a small knurled knob with a screw shank and put a retainer washer on the inside of the plate, the washer sitting in a recess in the bottom metal so the bottom plate still locks up flush and will prevent the knob headed screw parting company in the field if undone. Knob could be quite flat in profile hardly felt if the rifle is carried in hand around the mag area.

Then no screw drivers or knife blades involved and simple to check tightness every so often by hand. Blue it and it would be unobtrusive and likely viewed as a factory fitting.

Gotta be better than a stainless screw sticking out like dogs ..lls

eagle27,
Good of you to come slumming with us.
Great ideas there for variety in screwing.

eagle 27

I expect you could get a wide array of ideas about how to secure the MK X floor plate with a screw and cost could go from a few dollars to hundreds of dollars for the job. All would be fine as the floor plate would be secured and a mag jam could be cleared without disassembling the gun.

Mark