I am seriously considering a new toy. I have it narrowed down to either 416 Rigby or 458 Lott. Any recommendations? Thanks.

Randy,
The LOTT will be cheaper to shoot, in the long run, but it is STILL a high pressure round.
You can have a winchester/cz/mauser/ruger with a lott. It's basically a 1 trick pony, 500 grains at 2300, or 300 at 2600?

416 rigby is, imho, the classic round (shaadup about a 404 .. ) and will take anything well. You can load 400 grains to 2700 (crazy) 2400 at low pressure, and shoot 300 grain premium bullets at 2700-2800
cz or ruger

In either event, I would humbly suggest, as someone who hasn't followed his own advice, to get the 416 rigby on a cz, for ~650 bucks delivered from gunbroker.com, replace the safety (150+50install) and put 11 to 14 oz of lead in it... and then set the sights up for 400 at 2400 and, lord forbid, if you scope it, set that up with your 300 grain sizzlers....

if you decide on the lott, get the 458 cz, and have it rechambered(100?, I can loan you the reamer), and safety

you net cost for a cz, in either way, is about 850... the going price for a winchester in 458, and 3/4 the price of a ruger.

of course, rebed and perhaps restock would be in order for me

jeffe

Randy720
I am a big fan of the 458 bore. Both are good African rounds, I think most would agree the 458Lott hits a bit harder.
For use in the good o'l USA and in the Great State Of Texas I think the 458 Lott is much to be perfered. There are many different 458 dia bullets that you can use for deer to bear. There is no need to shoot full power loads on deer and pigs. These bullets are very cheap, thus you can shoot a lot for peanuts.You can taylor the bullet, the velocity, and the recoil level to suit the game you are hunting. The 400gr premium bullets make a great Alaskan bear load.
both are great calibers,
I just think the 458 Lott has a lot going for it.

Both! I know you are looking for either/or, but eventually you will end up with both. There is no cure for the big bore disease.

I bought the 458 Lott through Wincester's Custom Shop about 4 years ago. At the time, either the CZ 416 Rigby wasn't available or I didn't know about it. If I had it to do all over again, I would have bought the CZ 416 Rigby.

I love my Lott and I had to start reloading for it. It is the gun that got me into reloading because there were no factory rounds at the time. The Rigby rounds are available from Federal now as they were then at an outrageous price. I now have a CZ 416 Rigby that I am having restocked and I reload for it, also.

Reloading really brings the costs down. I have probably put over 350 rounds through my Lott. It is a real kick to shoot in more ways than one. There is no doubt that it is a thumper, but so is the Rigby. A well placed shot from either one will do everything you need it to do.

Just get both!

Randy,
NE 450 makes a good point about the 458 bullets on offer.
My vote is for any bigbore that can use lever action or blackpowder type bullets as well.

In Australia bigbores see most of their use on medium to small game. We start with heavy jacketed premium softpoints for our favourite monster and after a few hunting trips we are looking around for the softest bullets for it.

This is more about versatility to me than buying a rigby for the chance of the occasional long shot the 458 won't reach.

Either will do the DG job they were designed for of course.

Karl.

If you have sufficient experience with Big Bores, the 458 Lott is definately the more powerfull of the two rounds. However, It's been my experience that at full tilt, most people don't shoot it very well at all. Recoil is usually substantial because there is generally not enough gun weight. The .416 Rigby can also be loaded up to equal the 416 WBY, however, it's forte has and always will be low pressure 2400 fps/410 gr loads. Those are the numbers that have proven totally effective on Dangerous game for nearly 100 yrs. This is a MAJOR step up in killing power over a .375 H&H etc. Recoil is usually managable by anyone capable of shooting a .375 H&H. A simple test to help you deceide is to put up a paper plate at 100 yrds and take five shots at it. My bet is you'll score much much higher with the Rigby! Raw power is meaningless unless you can shoot it accurately.-Rob

Randy

I got the CZ550 in 416 Rigby with the standard stock (straight) more than a year ago. Since then I've only shot around 100 rounds trough it because it is at the gunsmith most of the time to get customized....

If you want all the bells and whistles - either order one from AHR to your specs or get a Ruger and invest for bedding and a trigger-job.

If you start with the CZ550 at $650 be prepared to invest another $1000 to $3000 to get the real DGR you finally will desire.

(There are some nice used Dakotas in the range of $3000 around too.)

Franz

.458 Lott = >.416 anything

I guess I'm going to throw in one other factor to think about ... range of intended use.

If the purpose of the rifle is closer range work .. ~100 yard or less and the point is to stop game, then the Lott is a very, very good choice and the Ruger is a nice package.

If however, you want to "reach out" to 200 or 300 yards ... the Rigby with 350 gr X's is a great choice and the CZ is a very cost effective way to go. The stock should be attended to before shooting it much though. Figure a $1000 investment in the rifle after bedding and the addition of cross bolts and another recoil lug.

Both are great choices ... BIG steps up from a .375 H&H . Recoil will be noticably different too.

Both calibers be hard on scopes. The general trend of discussion here has been that the Leupold Compact 2.5x is the strongest but that often the Leupold VX III 1.5-5 has been good enough.

Have fun ... whatever you decide.

(For the sake of full disclosure, I have a .375 H&H, a CZ in .416 Rigby, and a .470 NE Searcy. As the man said, the 375 is like a black tux .... everyone should have one. Very flexiible and comfortable to shoot. The Rigby is incredibly potent at range at the penalty of some weight and some recoil. The .470 double rifle is the classic DGR ... again, everyone should have one )

[ 06-26-2003, 20:08: Message edited by: mstarling ]

Forty is enough gun.

There are some comments to go with my opinion, however. The Rigby cartridge is a big one, and you need a magnum size action for your rifle. the .416 Rigby is a superlative cartridge for the hunter.

The Lott is based on the .375 H&H cartridge case, and you can use a smaller action to build one (or you can build it on a magnum action too). It is the "school solution" for the PH who uses a bolt-action, magazine rifle.

jim dodd

Since you say you're looking for a new toy, the 458 lott it is. It allows use of more common and in many cases less exspensive bullets, brass is less exspensive, and 500 gr @ 2300 fps is an impressive load.

Now, if you are looking for a serious dangerous game hunting rifle, I'd lean towards the 416 Rigby. As those of us who've shot the lott will say, it generates signifigant levels of recoil, signifigant enough that one simply can't take any shot they want with total disregard for the recoil.

Another nice thing about the 458 Lott is that a 500gr bullet at 2150fps has proven itself as perfectly suitable for any dangerous game. This should bring the recoil down quite a bit, maybe even more shoulder friendly than a 416,400gr at 2400fps.
Both are good choices, I just think the 458 Lott
would be the more fun of the two to own and shoot over the long haul.

I like the Lott. If you'll pardon the pun, it'll do a lot more than the .416. With the big 500 gr. slugs at 2,300, it hits much harder. It's the ideal DGR when set up with good express sights. With the premium 400 grainers and a scope, it flies nearly as flat and hits at least as hard as a .416, and makes a great heavy game load, e.g., for bears, African lions, etc.

As for recoil, it doesn't bother me in my AHR 550 Safari DGR. Maybe I'm tougher than most, but I don't think so--I think it's because the rifle was built the right way, with two mercury recoil reducers in the stock and an unloaded weight of 11.5 pounds. Plus, I always have an AHR X-Brake screwed onto the muzzle when shooting from the bench. It's a pussycat.

------------------------------------------
"No free man is safe when the legislature is in session."

mrlexma

If the rifle was strictly for hunting I would take the 416 Rigby and even more so if a high class custom gun was being used.

But if playing about with loads, smaller game, rocks, tins of water etc. then I would take the 458 Lott every time.

Mike

Forget the Lott. Get the .416 Rigby and after you get used to shooting it then if you still want a .458 then get a .450 Rigby. Loaded to velocities of the .458 Lott the .450 Rigby operates at way less pressure. Also remember that the Lott has one of those "cost you your life" belts. Lawdog

If I wanted a real hammer, then I would get the Lott, but it is a kicker...The Rigby is a nice gun and I like the idea of a mild kicking 40 caliber, so I shoot a 416 Rem. or a 404 Jefferys, the Jefferys being my favorite..I like the 416 Rem and Jefferys simply because they can be built on a standard action...

If I'm going to use the big 416 Rigby action then I want it in a 500 Jefferys or 505 Gibbs..If I have to pack all that weight I want gun that will stop a frieght train head on....

Would it be pretty easy to buy a new Ruger M77 in 458 Lott and rechamber it to the 450 Rigby?

If they use the same action for the Lott that they use for the .416 Rigby, it should not be a problem, should it?

I guess all that you would gain by rechambering to the 450 Rigby, would be that you could push a 500 grain bullet faster (if you wanted to) or at 458 Lott velocities with less pressure (not a bad idea for a DG rifle in the African heat). Downside would be cost/availibility of brass and losing the ability to shoot 458 WM ammo in a pinch.

Tim

Just to add Two queries to this discussion;

1. Due to the case capacity of the .416 Rigby and it's ability to push a 400 gr bullet at 2600 fps if so desired I am betting it could also get 2400 fps with the 450 gr woodleigh soft nose, does this neally draw it up level pegging power wise to the smaller capacity .458 lott ??

2.I am wodering if the 450 Rigby may be the better option for a .45 big bore if you choose the cz ?? You can still load all the 45/70 style bullets and still shoot them at down loaded velocities if you like, or go toward the .460 weatherby trajectory. You get lower pressure as well, one disadvantage would be dearer brass, another you lose mag capacity. If you opt for the M70 action then the lott is the way to go. BUt is the .458 lott the right move for those wanting a .458 bore on a cz ??

Do the above points have any relevance or change anyones perspective ??

[ 06-27-2003, 18:17: Message edited by: PC ]

I think the best way to build a 450 Rigby is to start with a 416 Rigby and re-barrel, as the magazene and feed rails are already set up for the larger case, no to mention the bolt and extractor.

But, in the case of the ruger, with integral quarter rib on the barrel, you're probably dollars ahead getting the 458 lott, and replacing the bottom metal, and having the bolt and extractor opened up.

The real question is, is the increased terminal performance of game from the lott worth the tradeoff for increased recoil? To the question about loading 500's @ 2150 for reduced recoil, I didn't find the recoil much different between 2150 and 2280 fps, it was signifigant in either case.

The Lott gives you all the power required on the .532 casehead and, in doing so, maximizes magazine capacity in any given rifle. It's far less expensive to acquire and enjoy and offers the best selection of big bore bullets existent. If you think a .416 kills big game like a .458, better think some more. Here we go again, disregarding the obvious advantages of caliber and bullet weight to suit our shoulders.

Even better than the .450 Rigby the .460 Weatherby would be your ticket if your looking for more power.

Randy720
In the past I have had a 416 RM, 416 Weatherby Mag
two different 458 Win Mags, now I have a 450/400 and a 450 No2 both doubles.
I have found the 458 bore rifles more user friendly for use on other than dangerous game, thus you will probably use it more. Bulk 405 grain .458 bullets are very cheap, so you do not feel like you have broken the bank after a 50 or 100 round weekend "plinking" session.
When you can handle your big bore like a 22 shooting it becomes second nature.

When that bear looks at you as you are dinner.... or that buff looks at you like you owe him money..
or that elephant is just starting to wrap his trunk around your neck..... You will be glad you have the 458 Lott.

[ 06-27-2003, 23:09: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

Randy720
Both calibers are good for DGR....
But you said "I am seriously considering a new toy."
The .458 Bore is a much better "toy" by a long shot.

What do people think about loading the .416 though in modern cases with the woodleigh 450 gr, the big case would have the capacity to push that bullet to 2400 fps too, Does this draw near the Lott in power, the SD would be high and pentration should be good ??

Get two CZ .416 Rigby's.

Shoot everything that moves with .416 Rigby numero uno.

Meanwhile, remove the barrel of .416 Rigby number two and have the gunsmith rebarrel to 45 Lapua and customize to your heart's content.

The spare .416 barrel can be installed on .416 Rigby number one when you wear its rifling smooth in your old age.

The 45 Lapua beats any other 45 in sum total points of superiority.
Aloha

PC,
I think the main difference would be with solids(on the DG side of things), for which any rigby load will still lack the frontal area of the Lott.
Either will penetrate far enough.

Karl.

Point Taken Karl,

In regards to which .458 now that opens up a different kettle of fish and I suppose it depends mainly on which advantages you see as being most important.

No to ways about it as far as convenience goes the .458 lott has that covered and now it is a factory offering it makes it all the more attractive.

The .450 Rigby would also make a nice chambering.

It just depends on what you are going to do with it. All else being equal, the greater magazine capacity of either the Lott or the 416 Rem. Mag. I favor over the Rigby.

You have more "horsepower" with the Lott and more theoretical penetratiion with the 416's. It is a tough choice.

DagaRon

you are just as nuts like friend of mine . He has finally gotten his matched pair. That's, one 416 and one 450 rigby rimless.

I'm not sure why he choose a pair in these calibers, but if there is a passion, there is a need

/ JOHAN

[ 06-28-2003, 15:08: Message edited by: JOHAN ]

If you happen to own a .375 H&H I would by pass the .416's and get a .458 Lott or .450 Rigby which ever floats your boat. I think these two would make a good pair. The other thing is to flip a coin heads for .416 tales for .458 and buy one. Then a few more months down the track solve the delemma by purchasing the other one

What will be your major use for the rifle/cartridge. If it is to be a more all around gun/cartridge that will shoot 200 yards easily, yet take heavy game the 416 Rigby without question. If however, you are looking for a heavy game rifle and more of a stopping rifle then the 458 Lott is likewise, in this case, the obvious answer.

Good Hunting, "Z"

Johan,
Right! I am nuts. Everyone has to be nuts about something. Maybe I am nuttier than your friend, for I would much rather have a 45 Lapua than the 450 Rigby or Dakota, for many reasons! Maybe he will reach this stage of development (or corruption) some day. That is a good start, with a .416 Rigby and a 450 Rigby.
Aloha

My .458 really bumps me and besides everyone has a .458 of some type. Get the .416 unless you're going to be cropping elephants.

I don't shoot the 458 Lott because is kicks the snot out of me and I don't enjoy it..I can shoot it but I have to concentrate on not jerking the trigger and it stirs up my birsitas from shooting the big 500s....but like Nick said if you think the 416 is a killer then shoot something with the Lott or 460 Wby...

However, if you are a normal human being and don't relish recoil then go with the 416, I prefer the 416 Rem because I can build it on a std Mod 98 action as opposed to the bulky action needed for the Rigby...

But I betcha 375 hit the nail on the head when he suggested the 450 gr. Woodleigh in a 416 Rigby at 2400 FPS that should be an easy do, because I can do that in my 416 Rem but at more pressure....

Heck, do what ever blows your skirt up is my advise, just be sure you don't bite off more recoil than you can handle..

Lot of folks profess they can handle recoil, but they shoot them standing up when none of them are hard to handle...

My criteria is if I can shoot squated on my flat feet, prone, sitting, bent over, and in any field position I can conjur up then thats a gun for me, and that my friend will seperate the men from the boys....I'm a boy on that count and had to go with a 404 and 416...

Ray, according to your criteria, I just became a boy again.

As much as I love my Lott, I sure as hell ain't gonna shoot it from the prone position.

Come to think of it, I wouldn't be too happy about shooting a .416 or even a .375 from flat on my belly.

I can almost hear my collarbone cracking just thinking about it.

Shoot somebodies elses Lott before you buy. I did and now I don't want one. It hurts.

A Lott does not have to hurt if the stock is done right. Mine is very pleasant to shoot.

I agree. What make of rifle did you shoot, Mikelravy?

As has been stated, if you can't choose between a Lott and a .416 Rigby, the .450 Rigby is the ideal compromise. I have one and I can tell you it knocks buffalo DOWN. However, I have also acquired a .404 Jeffery that I load to .416 ballistics. They both kick. They both require concentration and bearing down at the range. On game, you won't feel the recoil and you won't hear the gun go off but you said you wanted a "toy" and that means to me that you will spend hours at the range fine tuning it into some sort of weird benchrest piece. If that is, indeed, the case, neither caliber will be any fun unless you have the central nervous system of a cement block. These are both game calibers, not benchrest pussies, and once sighted in should be fired either offhand or from sticks . . . unless you build one of those British style standing rests. Think, think, think! Are you after macho points or dangerous game? Think, think, think!