quote:

Originally posted by steel:
I have done most of my hunting with my smith and wesson .500 handgun and now im kinda looking to get into the rifle game. I like large caliber weapons and im not recoil shy. I have no problem spending the 3,000 for a rifle but it is easier to convince my wife on a $1600 rifle over a $3,000 pluse rifle.

If you really want a 50 cal, nothing else will do. I've got a CZ in 500 Jeffery and I like it a lot. If I was going to buy something smaller, I'd go with the CZ in 416 Rigby for the same price as the Lott. I just like the cartridge better.

Michael,

You'll be glad to hear that we picked up one of the new Winnie M70s. It is 243win in compact featherweight for smaller framed shooters. It is quite a pretty gun. Nice controlled feed action, though that doesn't mean as much to me in small calibres.

On this thread,
I question whether the 50 S&W rifle qualifies as a 'most affordable .500'.
I don't think either one of us would recommend it for a buffalo, ballistically speaking, over a 50 B&M, MDM, or AccRel, or Jeffrey, Wells, Mbogo, A2, Gibbs, etc.

Anyway, I naturally lean toward 'dual purpose' because I'm not really interested in elephant or hippo. However, since I have often walked after buffalo and antelope without a PH around, an all-around gun with some stopping power on its own has always appealed. You are right. It needs to be a reliable gun. 100%, and that can take some work.

It was this forum that encouraged me to go beyond the dual-purpose 416 Rigby and consider a 500. We still haven't gotten that finished or out to the field, but these things take time. More than I thought when I started. It's already been a year and half. But at least I had fun firing its first barrel last summer.


PS: it was good of you to list the Ruger for honorable mention. I even had a Ruger 416Rig about 15 years ago. Ruger helped open the floodgate of bigbore interest about 20 years ago. Back in the 80's everything was either 375HH or 458Win. I was a little out of step with a 338WM and preferred it to the 375, having used both. Better bullet selection at the time with NosPart and higher BCs in lighter bullets. (We even shot Sierras, both 250 gn .338 and 300 gn .375, but their jackets separated. Even used the 300 grain .338 Barnes (now carried on by Woodleigh) on warthogs around water holes. Now with CZ stepping into the US market, the Lott is a factory rifle, and 416 Rigbys have finally achieved a level of accessability that was denied them for their first 80 years. With Win M70 returning to control-feed platforms, and CZ and Ruger expanding the market, the common hunter has access to building calibres and rifles beyond what was imagined thirty years ago. We live in a pretty special day.

I hope the buffalo and hartebeests appreciate all of this. After all, we do it for them, ele and hippo, too.

Tanz

quote:

new Winnie M70s. It is 243win in compact

Crap man, if you would have got a 243 Super Short we could have made a .500 out of that!!!!! Made it useful then!

quote:

I question whether the 50 S&W rifle qualifies as a 'most affordable .500'.

OK, someones feelings is going to get hurt, but those breakopen 500 S&Ws are such a Piece of Sh*T.
I hate and despise anything that breaks open to begin with, but a buddy of mine had one of those things, I had to work with it a bit to load some for him, and I would not give 50 Cents for a damned truck load of them! Scrap metal, about the best I can say about them!

CZ, at least it does not break open. Ruger, well better than saying Remington on it. Sorry, I am what I am, its not really my fault! LOL................... Well, maybe it is my fault? I don't know. Probably if you could take any of them and scratch Winchester on it somewhere I would be satisfied, at least until I had to handle it.

The one Ruger 416 that the fellow built the 50 B&M on would not hold but two down in the magazine, and the 50 is a RUM based case. Without other modifications one could not hold but two of the bigger Rigby sized cases either, correct? That is not such a major issue to me, I could very easy work with two down without problems. Just curious on my part. Thinking of the 500 AR. Or whatever you guys are calling it now, I really have not kept up, apologies.

.500s Rule, includes .510 as well. Can be made on a decent workable platform, for me short and handy. .500s hit harder by far because of caliber over 458/474, all being equal. 500s make a bigger impression on elephants, buffalo, and hippo, all else being equal. Yes, one can go larger, to Ultra bores, but the ugly thing about that is the platform also goes Ultra, and that just won't do, not for me! .500/.510 best of ALL WORLDS.

Michael

quote:

Crap man, if you would have got a 243 Super Short we could have made a .500 out of that!!!!! Made it useful then! hilbily

quote:
I question whether the 50 S&W rifle qualifies as a 'most affordable .500'.

Granted, but I'm not sure that a 5 ft 0" girl should fire a 500 as her first encounter with a firearm.

Well said Michael, but it is not quiet complete

If I had a billion $US just to spend I wouldn't pay 50 cents for A truck load of (break open)singles, doubles, bits and pieces brazed bolts on actions like (Remingtons, Winchesters), shotguns, lever actions, pump actions, semi autos, tacticals, boats, cabriolet cars and city appatments.

I hate them all with a passion.

Pyzda

quote:

Paul, the MDM is a great rifle. No questions there. But since you asked, like everything in life there are tradeoffs.

If the rifle is dual-purpose, buffalo AND plains game, then something with a 150 fps more velocity than the MDM would be a plus. The MDM is about 10 grains capacity smaller than a 500AccRel, despite using a long 2.8" case.

quote:

I did not build the 500 MDM as a dual-purpose multi use tool. It is built for a very specific purpose--close up buffalo, elephant, hippo.

Lest we all forget – bullet, bullet, bullet…
.
The 500 MDM will reach out quite nicely to 300yds or so with the 430gr CEB MTH copper hollow-point spitzer bullet…

I don’t have the exact overflow H2O capacity of the fireformed and FLR’d 2.8” 500 MDM case (375 RUM - Remington commercial brass) but I’d say it’s around 121.0grs…which is well within 10grs of the 12.7x68 case (338 Lapua Magnum - Lapua commercial brass) with its fireformed and FLR’d 129.90grs overflow H2O capacity… In fact It’s more likely somehere in the 5grs to 8grs range difference…

Anyway, using the 121.00grs and 129.90grs respectively I played with QL and QuickTARGET using the 430gr .500 CEB MTH bullet and matching pressure of the 500 MDM to my earlier match of RIP’s 2662fps 12.7x68 100gr H322 data --- it basically comes out to burning an extra 10gr powder for an extra 3.4-5yds in trajectory… Use the Hornady 416 Rigby brass for the 12.7x68 (as was done with the 500 AR) and gain another 2-5grs case capacity and burn a little more powder for that same extra yardage…

I could easily live with the 500 MDM as my .500 caliber cartridge as it’s on that ‘cusp of maximum efficiency’… My problem is that I just couldn’t keep my attention rapped around using the 375 RUM case for a .423 caliber companion rifle – hence my derivative use of the .338 Lapua Magnum…

416 Tanzan-yes there certain tricks to making cartridges feed properly that you just can't read about or google and then state that because certain dimensions are the same then everything else will work. There is ramp work and under rail milling required for many of these cartridges. Of course if you accept a jam o matic well anything is simple. Listen, I've built 500a2s and two .470 mbogos, guess what , the 500 a2s are way easier to get to feed. I've built 500 Jeff's, 505 Gibbs, and .50/.600oks. I'm telling you the 500a2 is the hands down winner for ease of getting to work right the very first time and it's all the gun most can handle. You don't even need to fire form. Just expand a .460 Wby case load a .510 bullet at full power and it will work just perfectly. No pain, no wierd, hard to find cases, no fire forming just superb performance at a low cost. I've used one in Africa on Buff and it exceeded my expectations with two DRT buff. I never had a DRT on buff with the .416 Rigby for example. .-Rob

quote:

rob:
I've built 500a2s and two .470 mbogos, guess what , the 500 a2s are way easier to get to feed.

From what platform were you building the 470 Mbogo's? Same boltface and mag length?

I had been assuming a 416 Rigby, where the basic action already had the length, bolt face, and extractor set-up and would be very close if not potentially ready.

There is also the question of controlled-feed (aka CZ 416) vs push-feed (aka Weatherby 460). Push-feed might be trouble if needing to modify the boltface a tad.

Glad to hear about your 2 DRT buffalo. That is why people move toward a 500.
Last Oct's buff dropped as if DRT with a 416, but it was a face shot (and I had to wait about 12 minutes just for that, with unstable wind), the bullet going between the left eye and nose but under the brain. While impressive on the field, it only shows that a massive shock wave can have effect, and I don't know if or where a bone frag might have hit the nervous system. But I wouldn't want to bet on the same shot with a 270.

Anyway, I learn what I can.

quote:

Capoward:
but I’d say it’s around 121.0grs…which is well within 10grs of the 12.7x68 case (338 Lapua Magnum - Lapua commercial brass) with its fireformed and FLR’d 129.90grs overflow H2O capacity…

Your figures look pretty good. Ammoguide gives a 9.3 grain difference. And, yes, I could live with a MDM as my only 500, too, though there are no flies on any 500 at 120 gains water and higher.

The big question for me will be what the AccRel will do when back from McGowen.

You are right about bullet, bullet, bullet.
To that I add the cliche "Only accurate guns are interesting." It isn't any less true for being a cliche.

By the way, those are pretty bullets.

From knowing Dan's interests at CEB, it will only be a matter of time before bullets like that are available in .510", along with higher BC talon-tipped non-cons. The important thing on the Raptor and non-con will be to design the bullet without the #13 bulge that is so crucial on solids. He has already started in 338 and Michael should get to testing them this month. (I am expecting some pleasant differences for my own 338. Some older 338 Raptors were only shooting 3" groups in a Tikka 338WM that otherwise shoots MOA with several loads of TTSX 185s, 225s, and 265s.)

quote:

Tanzan:
The big question for me will be what the AccRel will do when back from McGowen.

I believe Ron uses McGowen barrels for his .395 caliber rifles and all have indicated excellent accuracy. Your 500 AccRel Nyati should give you the accuracy you were looking for without the band abrading you suffered with the earlier long freebore chamber…

quote:

Tanzan:
By the way, those are pretty bullets.

From knowing Dan's interests at CEB, it will only be a matter of time before bullets like that are available in .510", along with higher BC talon-tipped non-cons. The important thing on the Raptor and non-con will be to design the bullet without the #13 bulge that is so crucial on solids. He has already started in 338 and Michael should get to testing them this month. (I am expecting some pleasant differences for my own 338. Some older 338 Raptors were only shooting 3" groups in a Tikka 338WM that otherwise shoots MOA with several loads of TTSX 185s, 225s, and 265s.)

Yep darn pretty bullets that perform most excellently in the bullet box and close to long range target work. Dan certainly know how to make a bullet function properly…

The thing to remember is that Michael and Sam designed the BBW#13 FN Solid and HP NonCon as a paired set for close range use against DG...designed directly as a result of their work right here on the AR BB Forums… Design parameters finalized and enter Dan into the picture for commercial production and voila – a very successful highly performing design for DG work. It’s the ‘peanut gallery’ pushing them well beyond (distance wise) their designed parameters…

Now we have the ER Raptors (Extended Range Raptors) and these are purely Dan’s baby. The ER Raptors incorporate benefits identified with the ESP Raptors (Boomy’s brainchild of the double ended BBW#13 bullets) with the aerodynamic and high BC benefits of the MTH (Match-Tactical-Hunting) bullets that is designed from the beginning to use the High BC Talon Tips to maximize the aerodynamic shape and function of the new bullet. I too await the results of Michael’s bullet box testing of these .338 caliber bullets…

Just remember, Dan is running a for-profit business so some successful designs may be slow in hitting the slowest moving caliber lines… That said, anyone willing to pony up the monies for a single 250 bullet minimum manufacturing run can have this shape, or any combination of shapes that Dan manufactures, in your caliber and weight of choice.

Now regarding the 430gr .500 caliber MTH Y01 bullets – they are copper construction, because copper bullet composition is required for use in the ‘lead-free hunting zones” within a 300 mile or so radius of my residence and I desire to use my .500 caliber (as well as my .423 caliber) rifle against non-DG, pigs, and varmints… And yes copper is far more expensive than brass so opting for copper will be more expensive than brass.

Also a couple of things to remember; your first production design very likely will be changed for your 2nd run…and it’s definitely is more cost effective to have someone share a single production run with lower annual use calibers. Ron shared in my 430gr .500 caliber MTH Y01 run but I did the .423 caliber MTH Y01 run on my own… Will either bullet stay the same for the next production run? I have identified a couple of changes to incorporate in both .423 caliber and .500 caliber MTH bullet designs and either the original Y01 designs will go away or we’ll have Y02 designs for both calibers…

Anyone need a 50cal barrel 30" long. $180
shipping included. Like new. 1.5" breach,
can be profiled down.Ed

Tanzan

If I had to hunt DG and I was forced to pick a rifle and had no option to try it

I would choose .460 Wea. Mark V over any converted Mauser type action (M98, CZ, ZKK 602, Ruger Etc, ect.) any day of the year.

When I had my Mark V it fired 3000+ full power loads without the slightest misshape.

Sadly from what I've seen, every third Mauser type action rifle that had been converted from its original chambering into something different it doesn't work.

The most prevalent problems are that the action won't retain cartridges in the magazine and the second problem is It won't feed reliably.

I've seen converted (M98-ZKK 602) actions when the bolt is pulled back it will release 1-2 even 3 cartridges at once (and none of them able to slip under the extractor hook) out of the magazine into the action spilling them on the ground.

These were done by reputable "smiths" with 25-35 years of "experience. Charging up to $300 for the shit job.

Many of these actions are so butchered that all the needed steel in critical places is removed and sad owner is left with a piece of shit.

The other third problem is that the extractor hook is too short (not deep enough) and the case will slip over from underneath it before the bolt will reach the ejector.

All my DG rifles have the extractor hook as long as to reach the case groove with a great tension.

I can press the case into the bolt face and pass the bolt around a table of drunken sailors and the case won't slip out without a force.

Pyzda

I've built .500 Jeff's,.500a2's .470 mbogos, 505 Gibbs .585 nyatis nand .600 oks all from CZ550s. Best bang for the buck action in existence. Of all of the them the.500a2 took the least work to get perfect. Most started out as .416 rigbys. The extractor hook is indeed a important item that's frequently overlooked but critical to proper function. There are quite a few folks on this forum who have shot my guns and can vouche for how well they work.

Robgunbuilder,
out of pure curiousity, and as you are perfectly postioned to know factually, if I presented you with a current cz550 in say .416 and wished to have you convert that to a .500A2 what would I realistically be looking at in terms of expense for;
* decent new quality barrel in .510
* inletting/bedding to current stock
* chambering to suit
* quality open sights to suit above
* bottom metal work, rails and feed work required.

Thanks in advance,

Paul.

I also think about a 500 just for fun. Load it full bore or like any number of BP 500' for hogs etc. I would start with a .416 Rigby CZ and go with the .495 A2. I just like a big round without a shoulder, like my Lott.
For me, a big part of hunting Africa is taking a rifle that I've customized enough to bond with. And, an unusual caliber would add to the fun.

Paul- no new bottom metal or mag box required, just some straightening of the box. I'd say with a new barrel, chambering, feeding, box alteration, new trigger, barrel mounted second recoil lug , sights etc. probably $1200 max. I did exactly that on my own gun and even re-used the CZ stock. Took me 3 days of work in the evenings. it was way easier than I thought it would be. That's why I'm so hep on this
conversion. Add a brake, McMillan stock, cross bolts and your still under $2k. -Rob

quote:

Paul- no new bottom metal or mag box required, just some straightening of the box. I'd say with a new barrel, chambering, feeding, box alteration, new trigger, barrel mounted second recoil lug , sights etc. probably $1200 max. I did exactly that on my own gun and even re-used the CZ stock. Took me 3 days of work in the evenings. it was way easier than I thought it would be. That's why I'm so hep on this
conversion. Add a brake, McMillan stock, cross bolts and your still under $2k. -Rob

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012
Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise!

Si I guess with a donor rifle at $1000 - $1500 (max) you could have a .500A2 for less than 3&1/2 large.
Boy, wish we could do that here !
That's one low priced, bone crunching, buffalo pounding big bore.

Thanks Rob.

Paul are you trying to get in shape or something? You must what to build a big long heavy bolt gun to match the weight of your double.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:

Si I guess with a donor rifle at $1000 - $1500 (max) you could have a .500A2 for less than 3&1/2 large.
Boy, wish we could do that here !
That's one low priced, bone crunching, buffalo pounding big bore.

Thanks Rob.[/QUOTE]


Paul

If you want we can get that 500 MDM of yours back here if you are not going to need it any longer once you get your CZ built!

Micheal
Get the guys to shoot your rifles they will come right at some stage.My 50 will start shooting next week will take a hippo or to. I will send you some pics.

Org

quote:

Originally posted by borg:
Micheal
Get the guys to shoot your rifles they will come right at some stage.My 50 will start shooting next week will take a hippo or to. I will send you some pics.

Org

Hey Borg!

Excellent, I can't wait to see some of those pics!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:

Si I guess with a donor rifle at $1000 - $1500 (max) you could have a .500A2 for less than 3&1/2 large.
Boy, wish we could do that here !
That's one low priced, bone crunching, buffalo pounding big bore.

Thanks Rob.

Paul

If you want we can get that 500 MDM of yours back here if you are not going to need it any longer once you get your CZ built!
[/QUOTE]


So should we start the bidding for Paul's 500MDM? I will start at 2,500.00

You can get a Winchester/Browning 1885 Highwall single shot for about $1100 chambered in 50-90 -2.5" Sharps. If you need more power it can be rechambered to anything you think you can stand.

quote:

So should we start the bidding for Paul's 500MDM? I will start at 2,500.00

Brent, that is a pretty good place to start! Sounds like a good price to me. Especially with all the extras it has. Barrel is a bit long compared to yours however, 20 inches!
Paul can use that to finance the CZ!

quote:

Winchester/Browning 1885 Highwall single shot

Having one of those built in my 50 B&M Alaskan--22 inch barrel, Yes, I know that is a little long for me, but needed to match up with the forend properly. Also have a Ruger #1 coming in 20 inch barrel, forend a little shorter on the Ruger--Will look pretty spiffy!

M

Jeeze balou, a fella asks some basic questions and the peanut gallery explodes into raptures of sarcasm and smartassism.

For those asking, the .500 is going nowhere !

I just wanted to know for my own reasons why it is so much less expensive to prep a Cz for a conversion like this as oposed to the Winchester.

Must be that the Cz's are so much better manufactured that they need less improvements
after work such as this is done.

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:

Si I guess with a donor rifle at $1000 - $1500 (max) you could have a .500A2 for less than 3&1/2 large.
Boy, wish we could do that here !
That's one low priced, bone crunching, buffalo pounding big bore.

Thanks Rob.

Paul

If you want we can get that 500 MDM of yours back here if you are not going to need it any longer once you get your CZ built!

So should we start the bidding for Paul's 500MDM? I will start at 2,500.00 [/QUOTE]

Brent, you can have my .500 AFTER you pry away my cold, dead, stiff fingers from around it !

Ok I got it now. You want to have a 500 back up so when I come over to hunt buff with YOUR MDM . Boy my wife has not stopped talking about going back in the bush with your aboriginal brothers to learn herb and such. Looks like I am going to have to be talking to you soon. So keep the MDM til then, I will bring it back with me after the hunt

Paul

Personally I wouldn't have any Winchester if it was given to me for free.

However the conversion is only "so" cheap because Rob gave you a honest price.

Try another gunsmith and you may need an arm chair to fall into it after he'll give you his price for the same work.

Pyzda

quote:

Personally I wouldn't have any Winchester if it was given to me for free.

Blasphemy!!!!!!!

You should be taken out and STONED, then beaten, then have your eyes poked out, and the skin flayed from your sorry ass hide for saying such!!!

Me, I just soon be in Hell as to go to the field with anything that did not say Winchester On it!

Blasphemy I say! Are you related to Shootaway? Brothers? Cousins? SisterS???????

Tasteless! Common!

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
Ok I got it now. You want to have a 500 back up so when I come over to hunt buff with YOUR MDM . Boy my wife has not stopped talking about going back in the bush with your aboriginal brothers to learn herb and such. Looks like I am going to have to be talking to you soon. So keep the MDM til then, I will bring it back with me after the hunt

Brent, you must understand that the .500 M.D.M is more for use by overseas shooters as oposed to U.S residents.
Apart from one frail, old guy in Sth Carolina, I know of no U.S based resident shooters using this cartridge.

If I had any confidence that you would be able to handle it I would be happy to loan it to you but I'm afraid that is "pie-in-the-sky".
I have a 10.5lb scoped CZ .375 which would be much more "comfortable" for you.

OP, unless you are hunting alone or a PH backing up your client, a .375 H&H should be fine for dangerous game. You certainly don't need accuracy out to 300 yards as some have talked about. Bop over to gunbroker.com and I'll bet you can pick up something for about $1,000.

Here's a NIB Savage 116 in .375 Ruger with a Buy-it-now price of $635:

.375 Alaska Brush Hunter

World-first 500 Bateleur is expected next weekend. Wby MK V.

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
OP, unless you are hunting alone or a PH backing up your client, a .375 H&H should be fine for dangerous game.

And a Yugo will get you from point A to point B! Maybe!! As long as you have a tow truck on speed dial when it doesn't!!!

I don't accept the analogy.

If the OP were an experienced big-bore enthusiast who said he wanted a .500, it'd be one thing, but he isn't.

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
OP, unless you are hunting alone or a PH backing up your client, a .375 H&H should be fine for dangerous game. You certainly don't need accuracy out to 300 yards as some have talked about. Bop over to gunbroker.com and I'll bet you can pick up something for about $1,000.

Here's a NIB Savage 116 in .375 Ruger with a Buy-it-now price of $635:

.375 Alaska Brush Hunter

If you are hunting alone then you may very well need 300 yard accuracy. As they say, 'only accurate rifles are interesting'. And big bores can be made very accurately.

RIP showed some sub-MOA groups at 300 yards with his 500 on AccRel freebore thread, or maybe on this thread, way back something.

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
I don't accept the analogy.

If the OP were an experienced big-bore enthusiast who said he wanted a .500, it'd be one thing, but he isn't.

Yes but he specifically asked about the best option for an inexpensive rifle in 500 caliber. He didn't ask for opinions on what is the best dangerous game rifle for a person without much big bore experience. He did state that he isn't recoil shy, but even that statement is outside the scope of his query.

It's just that the constant mantra of .375 .375 .375 gets old and IMO boring for the most part. YMMV however!

quote:

Apart from one frail, old guy in Sth Carolina

Paul, you do know Brent has a 19 inch 500 MDM?

RIP--Wby MK V--WiBnychester, there, that is better!


375? What is that even doing being mentioned? Please we are not talking about a rat gun, this is a serious conversation, 375 please that and a push feed savage, for sure, get that, go play BB Gun somewhere, I also got my daughter a Pink Red Ryder for Christmas, but she is at least pretending its a 50 B&M Super Short! It cost $29.95! There you go, the cheapest pretend gun mentioned on the thread! I win!

Michael