Over the last three months I have collected post 64 Classic Chrome Moly Model 70's in 338 Win Mag, 7mm STW and 300 RUM to be turned into 300 Win, 416 RM and 404 Jeffs respectively.

Today I ordered heavy duty magazine springs and extractor rings from Wisner's. I will order extractors from Williams on Monday to spread the wealth around. Al Talbot gets the nod for his scope base and ring system for the 416 & 404. I'll use a Brockman modified Talley base and ring system to have a peep sight available for the 300.

The first major surgery will to be to have the receiver rings ground, the scope bases milled and the front of the receivers and bolts squared.

Then off to have the safeties, sears and triggers reworked to 3 1/2# all around.

Will use cut rifled barrels, 24" across the board.

NECG banded front sights with partridge blades and single leafed rear island sights with square notches for the 416 & 404. Just a front sight for the 300.

I'll decide on magazine boxes and stocks in a year or so.

This project will likely be a two to three year process in total since I will have to raise money for each step along the way.

I am soliciting suggestions, insults, testimonials about various metalworking craftsmen, suggested components, pithy comments and especially ad hominen attacks on my judgement regarding caliber choices.

I can't afford to have D'Arcy Echols do a soup to nut rifle build for me (although I will likely buy some stocks from him). I won't rule out a wood stock for the 404, but it will be a very plain and straight grained stick if I do.

Thank you all in advance for your input.

lawndart
(formerly known as "stop bleeding on the kitchen floor - go outside in the yard")

i'll sell you the matched set of bastogne!!


i gotta say though.. there aint a wit diff in the 404 and 416.. so build a 300, 416, and 550 express!!

jeffe

The 404 is going to be my sort of nod to tradition. It will have a wood stock and a barrel band for the front sling swivel. I may even make it with a stepped barrel. When I'm feeling sentimental I can take it and my 9.3x62 and 6.5x55 out hunting.

The 300 and 416 will both likely have the Echols Legend stock and NP-3 finish on the metal. Those will have quick detach fittings for the sling swivels.

I will probably visit my sisters in early 2006. On lives in The Woodlands. I'll stop by and look at those blanks. I love figure as much as anyone else, but not enough to pay for it (I guess that means I don't love it as much as everyone else).

I know that Mark Penrod and D'Arcy Echols are true masters of getting the model 70 safety, sear and trigger to work as God intended. Is there anyone else out there with talent in that direction?

lawndart

PS Jeff what is the 550 based on? Ballistics? How would it work through a Winchester action? If I want to go a step up I would likely buy Old Sarge's 450 Rigby.

Lawndart,
This is too sensible to generate much controversy. All I can think of is those who would cry foul over a .404 Jeffery in anything but a Mauser. But you know what I think about that. It is a non-issue. Indeed I think the M70 is perfect for .404 Jeffery. A stepped barrel would be a nice distinguishing throw back touch and great for a banded island express rear sight. Would you dispense with the secondary barrel recoil lug? I would. Not needed on the gentle .404 Jeffery.

The Winchester trigger and safety are as perfect as it gets, so no need for a legendary smith to tune them up. Bout anybody can do that properly.

The replacemnt springs, collars and extractors are a great idea, and something I need to do before I have to fix mine someday.

I could use a couple of Echols' Legend stocks made by McMillan. Do you order direct from him?

Bravo!

JC,
okay then.. 300 win, 404, 550 express..

I live ~14 miles due east of the woodlands, so it's a short hope..several of my best friends live over there

the 550 (magnum and express) are based off the 460 weatherby case.. there's a "magic" number of .310+ sd, 7000+ ft/lbs, and medium velocity.. it's worked in doubles for a century.

these rounds ARE that, and the magnum, even MORE

the magnum is a 3" case, that is KNOWN to shoot a 700 gr at 2150, and is expected to top out at about 2300 with that. The express is the 2.65" case, that should make 2100+ or so with the 700 gr (which is 7000ft/lbs) or 2200 + with the 650s.

why these heavy bullets and SD?

the 577 nitro is a .313 SD, 750gr, at 2050 for 7000ft/lbs...

the 550 express is expected to be
.331 sd, 700 gr, 2120 or so.. which should out penetrate a Hughes bit

or
.307 sd, 650 gr, 2200....for 7000 fr/lb.. slightly slower sd, higher vel,

either of which are now in the same class as the 577 nitro 3", which is

quote:

the killer

even for Ross Siegfried.

jeffe

Jeffe,
Surely you aren't recommending a 550 Express or 550 RNS on a Winchester M70 Classic!

It can be done, but that would be a BAD idea that goes on the other thread.

Lawndart is talking about GOOD ideas here.

His next battery of three might be a 500 A2, a 550 RNS, and a 600 OK, but they are all better done on a CZ 550 Magnum. Those would be bad ass indeed.

BTW, the 500 A2 uses a 0.313 SD 570 grainer of .510 caliber at over 7200 ft.lbs., and that is bad ass enough for me. And bullets and barrels and brass are easy to find for a .510/460 Wby Improved. Even 50 BMG 705 to 750 grain match grade target bullets and milsurp APIT (etc.) bullets for 1000 yard plinking and anti-materiale for the adventurous. The 500 A2 is much more versatile for a BAD idea.

However, I don't want to rain on anybody's parade. The more parades the better.

Now back to some GOOD ideas ...

Lawndart,

I am one of the posters that RIP predicted would arrive with the 404/M70 combination.

I think the 404 has to be in a Mauser with the thumbcut. Think of it this way. You are looking at the 404 as a nod to tradition, nostalgia and associated bullshit

But as soon as you stick it on a Model 70 and a Model 70 I might add that is a two piece bolt you just tossed half the traditions etc out the window. And lets face the facts, the 404 taken as a stand alone calibre is simply a pain in the arse.

But I am a bit of an extremist on matching things. Even the 416 Rem on a Model 70 causes me a mild case of the hives.

However, on the other hand the 404 could be made on a Model 70 whereby you did not try and make it look like a 404 from days of old. Some mis matches can be interesting and of course you gain the advantages of the M70 action over those horrid Mauser actions.

If was it me and I had the 3 calibre choice you are talking about I would do the 300 Winchester in wood because it is a Winchester calibre.

With the 416 Rem just whatever fibreglass stock is the go, such as Echols.

With the 404 on a Model 70 I would have some real flashy fibreglass stock.

Mike

I think a .300 WinMag, .375 Wby, .458 Lott battery would be the most practical and versatile so as not to avoid overlap with the .416 Rem and .404 Jeffery. Looks like a battery of 5 is needed if .404 Jefery and .416 Remington are to be included. Another Big Five.

.375 Wby and .458 Lott are the most fool proof for safari.

Mike,
Thanks for the fiberglass recommendation on the .404 Jeffery M70. I am still working on flashing mine out: Stainless and fiberglass M70.

Lawndart,

Does Al Talbot have a website? I'm considering alternate bases for my Model 70's. I'd like them to be fitted and give that square-bridge Mauser look. QR system, ideally.

Steve

Ron,

Personally, I would much prefer a 404 in a flashed up stainless M70 or dare I say it, a Wby Crowm Custom style gun than a 404 on a Model 70 made along traditional lines.

Mike

Ron
actually, the 550 express is design to fit the m98/model70 ... intent and purpose!!

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Ron
actually, the 550 express is design to fit the m98/model70 ... intent and purpose!!

jeffe

Then I am an imbecile who would never dream of it. A tortoise am I, who will feel the cool breeze of the hare rushing by, who will only watch the soaring hawk from my place on the ground, in complete contentment.

A Weatherby Mark V single stack drop box DGR in 550 RNS would get my attention, and might be the next Mark V I am tring to justify.

Shouldn't kick much more than my .510 JAB/500A2, or I load it down to softer shoves, and it would be a refreshing change of pace.

Then again, a 500 A2 drop box DGR Mark V would be even better for 1000 yard target work, and I wouldn't feel bad about putting a removable tank style brake on that one!

Sorry for the highjack.

Back to lawndart's good ideas ...

quote:

Lawndart,

Does Al Talbot have a website? I'm considering alternate bases for my Model 70's. I'd like them to be fitted and give that square-bridge Mauser look. QR system, ideally.

Steve

Steve,
I talked to Al Talbot this morning. (810) 240-8427. He was a tool and die man for General Motors for 35 years, and has been making his mounts for just five years, so he won't croak on us anytime soon.

He changed his design to a one piece base for more rigidity. He asks for your exact hole spacing, receiver ring radii, distance to the ejection port from the screw holes (so he can machine in an exact recoil lip), etc.

They won't look traditional, but I believe they are the best QD mount system available. Get your order in to him in the next month. In mid march he starts on a military contract that will keep him busy for a year or so. I am definitely going to use his system on some of my ugly black rifles in 5.56mm, 7.62mm, and 6.8mm. Very good stuff.

Mike 375,
I'm busted! The real reason for considering a stepped barrel is that I am lazy as well as shiftless. Much easier to fit a banded rear sight assembly to a non tapering barrel.

The 300 and 416 will likely see extended duty in Alaska so they will be NP-3'ed and fiberglassed.

The 404 will not get pushed beyond 2,250 fps, so I can have a (relatively) trim stock whittled for it. Given that the Winchester 70 action is a travesty before I even get into the starting blocks I may compound my error by using a Sako Huunter Style stock off of an old 416 Rem Mag as a pattern. That'll make Alf howl . I would use a tapered barrel in that instance.

Rip,
You have to get the Legend stocks directly from Mr. Echols. He can inlet it for you to your specs, I believe.

I have a Sako in 375 Weatherby coming in shortly. That will go into a laminated Sako Hunter stock propped up in the corner of my living room as I type this.

In the .458 bore size I will likely and eventually go with a touch more case capacity (450 Rigby, 450 Lapua, 450 Dakota, etc.) on a CZ (read heavier) chassis. I would buy Old Sarge's 450 tomorrow if I had the extra money.

For .505 caliber and above I will stick to a pintle mount on an FAV (Fast Attack Vehicle).

lawndart

Mike 375,

PS The Winchester 70 is the best thing that ever happened to the 416 Rem Mag cartridge. The next best thing is the Sako AV Hunter that I have in 416 Rem Mag. Tough (with the McMillan stock), accurate, great trigger and an ergonomic stock to boot.

dart

dart,

If it was not for the M70 I suspect the 416 Remington would be dead in the water, unless CZ picked it up.

Mike

Yeah,
That was a lucky thing. When pressures are kept sane, it is a marvelous cartridge.

I wish someone would chamber for the 376 Steyr other than Steyr, but that is unlikely.

Jeez, here I am hijacking my own thread.

JC,
heh, i chamber 376 steyr in mexican mausers!!

Ron
the Magnum (550) is a 3" case... the express is a 2.65... smaller than the 500jeffery OR 585 nyati... and the express can be made to feed...

jeffe

Dart,

The 376 Steyr has one good thing about it.....it resulted in Hornady bringing out 225 grain 375 Spire points.

Mike

Answer Products (of recoil pad and muzzle brake fame) also sell Talbot's mounts. Here's a linK:

Answer/Talbot

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Then again, a 500 A2 drop box DGR Mark V would be even better for 1000 yard target work, and I wouldn't feel bad about putting a removable tank style brake on that one!

I think Mike375 has infected you with his taste in rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Then again, a 500 A2 drop box DGR Mark V would be even better for 1000 yard target work, and I wouldn't feel bad about putting a removable tank style brake on that one!

I think Mike375 has infected you with his taste in rifles.

Mike's brave example has helped me to boldly go where few would dare. To admit I like the Mark V. Even Allen Day has been brave enough to admit his fondness for the Weatherby Mark V.

My 1985 .340 Weatherby Fibermark was the first factory rifle with a synthetic stock, a McMillan. In November 1986 I went on a solo caribou hunt for a week. One fateful day on the Alaska Peninsula, all by my lonesome, I shot three caribou in five seconds, at ranges out to 350 yards.

After taking care of the meat and antlers, I walked around for a week fondling my Fibermark in zero degree F temperatures, and she kept me company in the sack at night.

Gawd she was good company! I love that Weatherby! I'm getting a boner just thinking of that black beauty.

Does this make me a pervert?

It's ok, she was a push feed.

I'm glad I'm not the only midwestern hillbilly who likes to wander around solo on the Alaska Penninsula in nasty weather.

It wouldn't make you a pervert, but if any of the glass fibers had delaminated it would have make you pretty sore.

quote:

Answer Products (of recoil pad and muzzle brake fame) also sell Talbot's mounts. Here's a linK:

Answer/Talbot

Grab them while you can. There won't be any in the pipeline again until 2006.

lawndart

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
It wouldn't make you a pervert, but if any of the glass fibers had delaminated it would have make you pretty sore.

Sorry to highjack your thread again brother Charlie, but 500groans was just asking for it.

Aw hell,
This is a pretty boring thread, it needs to meander some. I mean how many different ways can we say "I'm going to straighten a Winchester, put on a quality barrel and a well made stock and go hunting" .
The best thing about this project is that so many have done the same thing before and written about it on this forum. After wallowing in the cordite and Ballistol around here for the better part of a year I know where to look for good components and good craftsmen to make the project a goer.
The other best thing about this project is talking to guys like Al Talbot or Jim Wisner who know this stuff cold.

500 is a keeper of the standard. You and I need to know what the standard is so we have something against which to display our ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder - seen most often in juvenile delinquents )

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
I'm glad I'm not the only midwestern hillbilly who likes to wander around solo on the Alaska Penninsula in nasty weather.

Lawndart,
The Airman that was going to go with Captain Ron on this little expedition/leave chickened out at the last minute, so I went by myself. That poor kid later left the USAF, went home and blew his brains out with a .44 Mag. I have always hoped that seeing me come home with a monster caribou rack (and two smaller ones) did not aggravate his depression. Solo caribou hunting, dropped off by bushplane in November on the Alaska Peninsula, at Danny's Dune near Shotsky Creek is not for the timid.

It was called Danny's Dune, because Danny was the pilot of the Piper Cherokee that was wrecked there. Danny bought the dune, so to speak, in lawndart fashion.

It was a good landmark to navigate by, that wrecked plane, whether on foot or by air.

Back to your thread:
The 300 Winchester should be synthetic stocked of course, and would be a fine caribou rifle for those 350 yard shots. Don't listen to Mike375 on the wood stock advice.

A wood and blue .404 Jeffery M70 is a nice plan, like Fred's.

I have left out the survival story details about my solo caribou hunt, but I nearly bought the farm there due to breaking through the ice on Shotsky Creek, wet up to my neck, fatboy pants and wolf fringed parka and all ...

But the Weatherby Mark V was my inspiration for survival. She is a good ol' girl.

Do you have any Solo Alaska Peninsula Tales?

Ron,
Every time I have had trouble in the wilderness, either solo or in a group, it has involved cold water.

I had some time off from the ER due to a fortuitous scheduling error, so I hopped on a flight over to King Salmon. I took my gear over to Branch River Air Service and tagged along on a Beaver flight over to Nonvianuk Lake. I put my raft together and started fishing my way down the Nonvianuk and Alagnak (Branch) rivers. A couple days later a sweeper knocked my favorite Loomis fly rod into the river. I rowed hard to the inside of the curve and beached the raft. I knew where the rod had gone in, the water was very clear and the sun was shining. So. I stripped down, walked upstream a bit and dove in. Oh my God was that water cold. I kicked down to the stream bed, saw the rod and reel and reached for it. I couldn't make my hand open, let alone close on the rod. I was still in rod recovery mode as opposed to save my ass mode so I started kicking for the surface in a pissed off frame of mind. I didn't swim back to the shore, I got washed up on it. My skin was blue and my testicles had gone up to hide by my stomach (not to be seen until an Arizona vacation later that year). I laid out in the sun for an hour until I could walk back to my raft. I decided that the river wanted my fly rod and reel more than I did.

I broke through the ice goose hunting in Colorado once. I cannot imagine doing that solo in November on the Alaskan penninsula.

Be glad the airman didn't go with you. I took a guy out on the Arolik river who decompensated after three nights of gale force winds making the sky moan.

How does the Caribou meat taste post rut?

I always shot Caribou in the velvet because I like the taste of the meat better than the horns.

lawndart

Sweepers!
Lost some equipment due to those too, duck hunting, full speed ahead in a Coleman Scanoe with outboard (you know, the one all the cheechakos think is cool), headed up a creek in the dark, in Palmer Hay Flats, Knik Arm area. Doh!

Caribou in November, post rut, go back to making good sausage. You are right about not even a dog being able to eat them in the rut.

King Salmon was my jumping off spot too. Where I started my leave after a minor TDY was taken care of.

My voluntary plunges in icy water have been limited to when I couldn't stand the smell of myself any longer, bear hunting. Dive into Prince William Sound, climb back onto the boat, soap up and scrub the bear grease off, dive back into the 38 degree F saltwater, swim like hell for a few strokes and get out! Then I would wave at the Green Peace lesbian sea kayakers watching me skinny dip, with bear skin hung high to get their goats. (I wish!)(They were spotted now and then, but not while I was bathing.)

After the 340 Weatherby got submerged I was iced over everywhere. I was only a mile from Danny's Dune where my tent was pitched, so I dropped everything but the rifle and ran. I got a little bit disoriented as it was getting dark when I started the jog. Only 5 hours of good daylight per day that time of year. So when I got confused, I would stop and jog in place to keep some heat, and went this way and that until I spotted the wrecked airplane, and I was home. It was a moonless, overcast night.

I cut my waders off with a knife and wiggled out of all the other gear which I left standing like a crumpled scarecrow outside the tent. That first night the 340 Wby Mark V slept alone while I cracked chemical heat packs around my toes, inside of two North Face sleeping bags, nested together on a Thermarest pad, inside a North Face two man dome tent, while the wind whipped. After 3 hours I had some sensation back in my toes.

The next day I was a pacifist. Beautiful peaceful world, wave hello to the ravens and eagles and a few straggler caribou. My rifle was still frozen like a block of ice. That night I slept with it and thawed it out. Now I was bloody ready for the 4th caribou on my tag, but it was not to be.

That is not the smartest thing I've done.

It sounds like we were about the same age when we discovered our mortality. Hell is not hot. It is wet and cold. It is very frightening how quickly you lose the ability to think effectively in those situations. Years later there is no bravado in re-telling the story. Just remeberance of the feeling of the cold wind of death that blew that day.

The most worthy thing I did in Alaska was drop a Caribou that had just swum across the Noatak river on a sandy river bank in front of ten canoes worth of Sierra Clubbers. They took turns coming over to our camp and telling me I was ten different kinds of a Mo Fo SOB. Our camp was upwind of theirs. We cooked up backstrap with Teriaki sauce, onions and bacon. After eating our fill we poured out the residual grease on a bush to ensure our unarmed admirers were in the heart of the scent plume, washed our clothes and utensils, broke camp and paddled a few miles downstream to sleep. Unfortunately grizzlies are pretty sparse in that neighborhood. If we had been down in Southwest Alaska we could have just climbed a nearby hill to enjoy the show through binoculars.

Wouldn't it to be fun to spend a season shooting game in front of fern feelers?

I have a ton of respect for the folks who spend a lifetime living and working in the tidewater and interior of Alaska.

lawndart

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:

I have a ton of respect for the folks who spend a lifetime living and working in the tidewater and interior of Alaska.

lawndart

I'm with Mike on the action issue for a .404...

If I was going to go to all the work and trouble to build an first class African game rifle, then I would go the little extra and do it on a control feed action like a Mauser or at least a pre 64 Winchester or even a control feed newer Win M-70, but a Mauser would have to be the best route, along with a Walther Mauser barrel for the slip on sleeve rear sight, that Walther makes now, that is a copy of the original Mauser .404 barrel...

My opinnion is do it right the first time...you may want or need to sell it some day.

That slip-on rear sight sleeve assembly sounds nice (read easier).

I'll go with the newer controlled feed Winchester Model 70 action, mainly because I have three of them sitting on my desk as I type this.

lawndart