Sorry if this has been discussed before.

How much harder will a .458 Lott shooting 500gr at 2300 fps belt me compared to a standard .458 Win Mag shooting 500gr at 2000 fps.

In other words, if recoil doesn't bother me and I can shoot the .458 Win well, then is it much of a step up to the Lott?

Or, what is the recoil of the 416 Rigby / 404 Jeffery / 416 Rem Mag like in comparison with the .458 Win Mag?

(I've shot the .375 H&H very well, as I find the recoil very manageable - even off a bench with just a light tee shirt, shooting full power 300gr loads).

Cheers,

Michael.

As you now have proven to yourself, recoil tolerance is more of an in your head thing than a physical thing. If you have the discipline to shoot full power .375 loads you will be able to handle Lott recoil. Shoot your 22 off hand at a swinging target and get good at trigger control. Move up to the bigger kickers and don't shoot too many of them at one session. Use that 22 every time you go out. When I am concentrating well enough all I am thinking about is sight picture and trigget break.

in the same gun, the difference feels, to the recoil tolerent, "about 50% more" .. and to newer shooters, with brain cells still able to register, about double.

the lott is the top of recoil for most people, for darn good reason .. it kicks HARD compared to a 30-06

its double a 375hh .. which is no recoil level as compared to a lott

A lot goes into determining that comparison.
1) LOP
2) Stock design and area of recoil pad
3) Weight of gun
4) Actual load

I see little difference in my Lott and Win Mag. They both kick!

1) LOP; Lott 14" Win Mag 13.5"
2) Recoil pad on Lott (CZ 550) is wider than the Win Mag (Browning Safari); Both Decelerators
3) Lott is 10.5 Lbs; Win Mag is 9.5 lbs
4) Load with 500 gr bullets; Lott 2250 FPS, Win Mag 2170 FPS @ +90 F

No reason to live with a Win Mag using a 500 gr slug @ 2000 FPS, 2150 FPS is easy and safe with AA2230. A caution not to use AA2230 data out of the Hornady manual; It is about 4 grains to hot. Go on line and use the accurate powders suggested loading data.

Due to the handling dynamics of the rifle and my load developments, I personally prefer my Win Mag; Browning Safari.
There are benefits to the CZ as mine will hold 6 cartridges in the magazine (Lot of firepower)!

EZ

This is a very broad generalization but we were discussing the topic last weekend with a variety of very experience shooters and had the following observations:

1. The ideal body weight for recoil tolerance seems to be nominally 130 lbs to about 175 lbs. This is based on folks of similar height. Lighter people get pushed around and bigger bodies have more mass to set in motion.

2. Weight distribution matters. More weight at the waist or below the point of inflection is good. Big upper body mass is worse because of the extra mass to set in motion. This is contradicted a little because men with well developed upper bodies tend to be more pain-tolerant due to the means of their development. Pain-tolerant isn't the same as recoil-tolerant for the purpose of this discussion.

3. The brain re-sets itself as it experiences increased levels of recoil. The 458 Lott won't seem nearly as powerful after shooting a 500 or 600 as it did the first time you shot it.

4. Recoil velocity has much more to do with comfort levels than absolute energy numbers. The Lott @ 2300 is at the end of the scale for comfort and at 2400 fps it is at the very beginning of the pain scale. A good example of this is to shoot a full house 378 Wby without a brake and then pick up an identical 460 Wby and do the same. CHances are the 378 will bother you more than the 460.


A lot of this is the basics but it never hurts to restate it.

quote:

The ideal body weight for recoil tolerance seems to be nominally 130 lbs to about 175 lbs.

Well, that leaves about 90% of us over-50 crowd out!!!

I bought a ZKK 602 in 458 Win mag, and shot about 50 rounds. Very manageble recoil.
Then I had it rechambered to 460 G&A
Something else.. 500 gr at 2050 fps is hell of a lot easier to shoot than 500 gr at 2350-2400 fps..

Lesson learned.

M

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
3. The brain re-sets itself as it experiences increased levels of recoil. The 458 Lott won't seem nearly as powerful after shooting a 500 or 600 as it did the first time you shot it.

yep - i refer to my 550 express as a recoil trainer .. 5 rounds with it, and a lott feels like a pop gun...


and i still hate shooting a 378 webby

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

The ideal body weight for recoil tolerance seems to be nominally 130 lbs to about 175 lbs.

Well, that leaves about 90% of us over-50 crowd out!!!

See part 2: weight distribution. A fat ass or pot belly helps, lol.

People don't believe me when I tell them that my 450 Dakota cured my recoil issues, but in all honesty it did. After shooting that a few times, moving back to a 338 WM, or 300 WM is like going to a 22LR. My flinch is pretty much gone now.

But back to your question, I found this helpful:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

I really did not think the Lott kicked any harder than the Winchester magnum. Both kicked very hard, and a bit more than I am really comfortable with. This is why I use a 375.

quote:

Originally posted by steph123:
I really did not think the Lott kicked any harder than the Winchester magnum. Both kicked very hard, and a bit more than I am really comfortable with. This is why I use a 375.

this means you have exceeded your recoil limit, and aint interested in descerning the difference ,.,, winmag --- being jabbed by sugar ray ... lott... right cross from mike tyson

The type of rifle matters as well. My Lott in a Ruger #1 with maxed 500gr loads kicks alot more than my buddies 458 Lott in the Ruger RSM...and that is with 1 lb of lead in the #1 buttstock yet. Honestly, as I have posted here somewhere, after two shots in the #1 I am done. I was dizzy, my brain had a somewhat numbing feeling and I had a headache very soon afterwards. That was the first and last 2 shots taken from that rifle. I would much prefer the RSM myself. I still have that #1 though....only because it has the prettiest wood I ever saw on ANY factory Ruger rifle....and I seen plenty. I have yet to shoot my 458 Win mag model 70 Safari Classic....but I believe I will like it.

Woodrow S.,

If you haven't already done so, try the limbsaver pad on that Lott. I had the same experience with my Ruger No.1 chambered in the Lott cartridge when I first got it (except I was dumb enough to shoot all 19 remaining cartridges that came with the gun in one session). It had the factory pad and I had a minor case of whiplash a couple days later. I swapped pads and the difference was incredible. They don't look as elegant, but they WORK (VERY well for me anyway).

Please post pics if ya can of that wood!!! I'm sure we'd all love to see it!!!

Take Care,

Stump

Video of my first two shots with the CZ 550 Safari Classic .458 Win/.458 Lott. There is a difference:Lott of Difference
Bob

jeffeosso, I don't think your are correct here. I have shot a 458 Win mag quite a bit, but only shot a Lott a couple times. I don't shoot these cannons off of a bench, but standing and usually off of sticks and I am not too proud to use a recoil shield also. To me they kicked about the same. Neither of them made me cry and I hit the target with both. I didn't even get a bruise from them. I switched to a 375 because it kicked less and was more versatile.

My Lott is at the fringe of my recoil tolerance at this point. Of course, I said that when I was 14 with a .300 Win. Mag., when I was 18 with a .375, and thereafter with various .416's, .470's, etc. Every one you master makes the last seem like a pussygato.

I need to borrow Jeffe's recoilmaster for a couple of rounds and my Lott would be a pussycat as well.

I only know, that we used to have a pair of mules on the place my Pappy owned and they were called Gracie and Mary Jo. Now Gracie was one that liked to bite you if you ticked her off but no more hurt than me shooting Pappy's .338 win mag with 250 grn bullets.

However, Mary-JO would kick the holy crap out of you if she took a notion and you were in the right spot to absorb that jolt. Now I figure her kick was just about like that .458-Lott I had made up some years ago. I was sure glad when Pappy sold that Mary Jo!

REcoil is quite subjective, BUT, I found the full power, 500gr/2200fps Lott in a 9,5# rifle just too much for me. Actually gave me a mild cuncusion after 12rds from a standing bench. I can shoot my 10.5# 404jeffery off a sitting bench all day & not feel much affect. Rifle wt matters a lot when going to 500gr pills above 2100fps IMO.

.458 Lott with 500gr pills at 2,300fps is easy. If you can shoot .458 Win Mag with no problems you can shoot the Lott.

I would agree with this statement. When I began loading for the Lott, I would follow some of the data on the accurate powders web site which I had found consistent with other calibers and my chrono read outs. I began with AA2520 (500 gr loads) and tinkered out to what they suggested as a max load. That load yielded greater velocity than their charts and my rifles sports a 23" tube. That velocity was about 2340 FPS as I recall. This was in late summer +90 F and did not yield any sticky bolt problems. I took the advice of many on this forum and throttled that load back down to about 2250 FPS as most said that was more than sufficient for the guns intended purpose and provided a significant margin in reliability .
I always have tested these large bore heavy loads in a hot environment to mimmc any use in a possible African environment.
I guess my point is 2200 FPS is not a max load in a Lott. Hornady's factory fodder yielded about 2280 FPS in my rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
.458 Lott with 500gr pills at 2,300fps is easy. If you can shoot .458 Win Mag with no problems you can shoot the Lott.

Listen to Harry. Ever notice beanbag-shaped shooters seem to enjoy it more?

I own an RSM in 416 Rigby, 458 Lott and 500 Jeffery so I think I can comment on three almost identical rifles shot side by side. The 416 rigby at about 11 lbs with 400grn bullets at 2500fps kicks a little more than my 375 H&H Kimber BGR. The 458 Lott starts to get your attention after 20 or so round you notice some fatigue and the 416 seems mild. Now with the 500 Jeffery 570grn bullets at aprox 2350+ fps thats a whole different ball game. After 10 rounds I'm pretty much done for the day. That extra amount of recoil going up past 6000 ftlbs really is noticable. My advice is find some rifle to try out and decide just how much is too much and live with it. I love my 500 a lot but its not a causal plinker. My 458 Lott is really quite a bit of fun to shoot. I'll routinely warm up with the Lott before I shoot the Jeffery just to get myself in the right frame of mind. Also pulling the trigger doesn't = shooting the rifle. If I can't throw 3 rounds on a small pie plate as fast as I can work the action at 50 yards off hand then I back down. The Lott is easy to made three quick shots the Jeffery I'm still trying to get to this point. I find it take much more time to recover from the Jeffery after I pull the trigger and get on target for the next shot. Go have fun and find out what works.

Cheers

Brad

Recoil from a .458 Lott, in a well-made and well-managed rifle, is like a gentle kiss from a maiden's lips.

One never fears it, and one welcomes more.

Hi Brad, I shoot 570g TSX's at 2410 fps from my 500 Jeffery as well. It definitely takes another quarter second to recover compared to my 375 H&H, but then if your first shot is good, it should take the animal more than that long to recover too ...

Mike...your sick

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Recoil from a .458 Lott, in a well-made and well-managed rifle, is like a gentle kiss from a maiden's lips.

One never fears it, and one welcomes more.

Good God

I never want to run into the girls you're dating!

How would it compare to shooting a 300gr Bullet in a 338 Rum? That kicks more then my 375 H&H shooting 300gr bullets. Both rifles weigh 11lbs and have simms pads on them. The recoil in either of those two rifles does not bother me and I was looking at building a 458 Lott in the future.

Mike Robinson your maidens must be Russian bricklayers. I want no part of any woman that hits or kicks like a .458-Lott.

Give me a break! A Lott has minimal recoil. Not even worth mentioning. What a bunch of pussies! How are you guys ever gonna shoot a real stopper? I've seen a woman shoot a .60ook and not complain at all! Course she didn't move much afterwards, or talk( I like that effect a lot), but her eyes focused real good!-Rob

I'am just gonna sit over here in the corner and polish my 416 squirrel gun.



SSR

I have to agree that there is a big difference going from light 416 loads/ 375 H&H to bigger rifles. I will admit the 500 Jeffery is the biggest rifle I can shoot well enough to hunt with in the feild. YES I'd shoot a bigger gun heck if I had 15k lying around I'd order one of Butches 577 NE feild grades. However, pulling the trigger is a lot different than hitting a small target area off hand at 50 yards under pressure. I would also argee that my 9.3mm Ashley (aka RUM) hits harder in some ways than my 500 Jeffery. I see no reason a person couldn't be completely happy with a nice 416 RSM Rigby. I like to push thing a little and enjoy my 500 Jeffery. However, I think the 458 Lott is a fine rifle and can be handled well if you give yourself some time. Again you can download to begin with and just keep adding powder until it hurts too much or you max out your load. Unlike a double with a bolt rifle you can load up or down to your hearts content. I feel too many people make too big a deal about recoil! Heck, I bet most of them have never fired a big kicking rifle more than once if even that and talk like an expert. I only comment on what I have done and No I haven't hunted Africa yet but think my 416 RSM or 458 RSM would be more than up to the job. Again find someone to shoot with buy their ammo for them and get some range time pretty soon it will become very clear what you like and what you don't. As an aside I went with the 450-400 NE double for the very reason this discusion started mainly because I can shoot a 416 just fine and my double is no big deal as far as recoil like a nice kiss as stated above I can't say a 500NE would be as much fun.

Brad

just got a brand new cz/ahr 458 lott - wayne work is excellent as always - the factory good is great on the gun too.

should i expect recoil to be worse than a 470 - i liked shooting at 470 and i love shooting my cz/ahr 375

also should i get a scope for the lott - i have trijicons post on all my hunting rifles

Rifle fit is everything, good balance and a little weight dont hurt either. My Lott is not uncomfortable to shoot at all. For me that is. I have shot far less powerfull rifles that hurt even to the point I felt my shoulder was coming out of joint. I have a 340 weatherby built on Sako action with a McMillan stock that is a monster with a heavy load and 250 grn bullets, one of my buddies figures its a pussy but he wont fire the Lott. So there ya go.

The 458 Lott in a #1 Ruger with max loads, no scope, no extra weight, and on the bench is abusive.

After about 10 shots, my corneas detach, my teeth fall out, I bleed out of my ears, my orbital sockets break loose, and my arm falls off. Just like everyone tells you on AR...

I enjoy shooting the 500's at 2050fps, but that extra 250 fps makes a HUGE difference on the receiving end.

I enjoy shooting the 500AHR, 585AHR, and even the 600OK (just a little), but the lightweight #1 in 458 Lott does hurt at max loads..... But I like it!!!!!

Wait, Robgunbuilder, did I hear that you had a rifle that caused women to stop talking? Sell me one before there's a run on the market.

finally shot the 458 ahr/cz this afternoon

the recoil was not that bad - maybe recoil does not bother me that much

$5 a round was more painful

may get a trijicon post on this rifle

Felt recoil is most certainly depended on who is feeling it!

I do have to chuckle a bit over this thread .... though I can't attest to the Lott I can comment abt the .458 AR.

The recoil of 425s at 2400 is not too bad. The recoil of 500s at 2200 isn't too bad. Frankly, 500s at 2375 and more is gettin' kinda bright. I really do think one should expect that of a rifle that makes 6000 pfe.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
I would agree with this statement. When I began loading for the Lott, I would follow some of the data on the accurate powders web site which I had found consistent with other calibers and my chrono read outs. I began with AA2520 (500 gr loads) and tinkered out to what they suggested as a max load. That load yielded greater velocity than their charts and my rifles sports a 23" tube. That velocity was about 2340 FPS as I recall. This was in late summer +90 F and did not yield any sticky bolt problems. I took the advice of many on this forum and throttled that load back down to about 2250 FPS as most said that was more than sufficient for the guns intended purpose and provided a significant margin in reliability .
I always have tested these large bore heavy loads in a hot environment to mimmc any use in a possible African environment.
I guess my point is 2200 FPS is not a max load in a Lott. Hornady's factory fodder yielded about 2280 FPS in my rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
.458 Lott with 500gr pills at 2,300fps is easy. If you can shoot .458 Win Mag with no problems you can shoot the Lott.

I did the exact same thing with the surplus 2520 called DP74. Think my max load came out about 2333 fps or so. It killed me and gave me a flinch that took a while to get over. Was working up loads on from the bench. Did not have any aftermarket recoil pad but did have a PAST shoulder pad.

I am fine with the 500 grainers and DP 74 pushing it to about 2250, but nothing more than that. The Lott is a hoot with the 405 grain bullets made for the 45-70. Recoil is negligible and it comes apart like a soft point 223.

The math doesn't support it, but shooting my 500 Jeff with 570g TSXs at 2300 fps is a lot more pleasant that 570g TSX's at 2410 fps. Don't ask me why 100 fps makes that much of a difference, I have no clue. From what you guys are saying you're seeing the same thing with 500g bullets in the 458 Lott.