Ok guys what would be the benifits of going with the 450 Ackley over the Lott? I see I can get brass for the Ackely from midway for about what i can get the Lott bass for.

And would I be in any way ( real world) under guned for having one of these for my big bore?

Im only going to bulid one big bore and looking at these two rounds. If I knew that we would get AR stamped brass I would build a 458 AR

Thanks.

Ackley - 50 fps more

Get the Lott as it is what the industry has standardized on.

The benefit of the 450 Ackley is that the case has a neck. 450 Ackley brass is limited. Velocity is the same between Ackley and Lott.

No, you can never be under-gunned with a .458 caliber.

Build the .458 Lott and use .458 Winchester Magnum ammo when you need to. Norma makes Lott & Winchester brass.

lott, no questions asked.

jeffe

There are a lotta Lotts. That's reason enough for me. Better availability of components, better availability of ammo, cheaper ammo, need I go on.

Shoot a-lot get a lott.

505ED

Jeffe,

Please reassure us that headstamped .458 AR brass will become available! It is a wonderful chambering.

GET A LOTT!

Sure, the Ack might technically be a better cartridge but there are so many practical reasons the Lott is a better choice for the difference. Choosing the Ack would be like choosing a .280 over a .270.

Unless, you're interested in a .450 Ack on a SS MRC action which I'd be happy to sell or trade for...

I vote for the Ackley.

I have shot my freind Bill Steigers 450 Ackley alot.

It makes an honest and easy 2,400 fps with 500 grain FMJ Hornady and 510 grain WW, with just 88 - 90 grains Norma 203, RL-15, or something very similar in burning rate (like bulk Bofors) from a 24 inch barrel, re-chambered Mod 70 (from 458 winchester).

I have no experience with the Lott, other than I knew Jack Lott slightly and he did not ever claim anything like that for velocity. Thats why he developed the 404 Jeffery based 460 GA.

In my experience, the Ackley equals the 458 x 404 (460 GA). At least it did in Bills rifle.

I really liked it!

Andy

this is a no brainer - get the lott

in a pinch you can always use the anemic 458 win mag

p.o has gone on his last safari, and took his 458 ackley with him. may he rip.

I would go with the Lott, as it is a popular factory round, and in a pinch you can shoot 458 Win ammo.

Why push the envelope with the 458's. 2150 f/s was plenty good for the first part of the century as it still is. Why do we insist upon pushing velocities past where they really need to be?? The Lott at 2150-2200 f/s is plenty of power and one doesn't over pressure or stress the case. The Lott is plenty. Read Kevin Robertsons books. Load the stuff down not up.

Dan and lb404 and Jeffe all three agree...then it must be so.

Donnelly's book says:
450 Ackley...500gr bullet, 90.0gr of 4320...2350fps
458 Lott.....500gr bullet, 85.0gr of 4320...2330fps

That's not much difference for 5gr of powder. Personally, if I want more than that, I am going to a 450 Rigby/Dakota, or up in bore diameter to a .500". The 450 Dakota pushes the same bullet to 2470fps, but takes 110gr of the same 4320.

The Lott offers a tremendous advantage going to Africa...you can buy 458Lott ammunition nearly anywhere.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
Jeffe,

Please reassure us that headstamped .458 AR brass will become available! It is a wonderful chambering.

Mike,
it's looking like June ish!!

jeffe

I have owned both. Get the Lott. Brass and dies are way easier to find plus it is easier to sell when you start your next rifle!

I'm going to disagree. Get the Ackley! It will deliver the TRUE 2400fps with a 500 gr bullet. Thats the magic number. You will not get that level of performance from a Lott. I also like the looks of the Ackley. Maybe you'll see 2300fps out of a Lott with a 26 inch barrel , more likely 2250 or less with a 22 inch barrel.. The Lott is boring IMHO. -Rob

Get the Lott.

Ok can I shoot the Lott in the Ackley??

Yes, you can shoot the .458 Lott in a rifle chambered in .450 Ackley because they headspace on the belt.

The fired case will fireform to the Ackley shoulder shape.

Yup- You can shoot a Lott out of a Ackley chamber as well as a .458 win mag. No real issues with doing so ither. By the way of all of them and I own and shoot all of them, the Ackley demonstrates the best accuracy with cast bullets. Probably due to its having a decent neck to better align the bullet
Slickest gun I ever built was a .450 Ackley on a pre-64 model 70 win action. It would feed empty cases flawlessly and was a smooth as glass. MOA accuracy at 100 yrds and it hit 2400fps with 500 gr woodleighs. The Lott is a good cartridge but its just so BORING. Frankly you can easily achieve Lott velocities in a .458 win mag by just loading the bullets out .25 in a long throat chamber. Dare to be Different.-Rob

Ackleys will digest both Lotts and WinMags because of the belt. The Win Mags don't have much of a neck after firing but the bullet lines everything up. Certainly not a thing to do all the time but in a pinch, sure. See photograph in big bore thread by Withworth started on 24Sept06.

I agree with Rob, get the Ackley. I love mine and it is super accurate.

Mike

Okay, maybe it is just me, or maybe it is just Monday, but for the life of me I cannot understand how folks can get all worked up over 50 to 100 fps. A 500 grain bullet moving at 2200 fps and one moving at 2300 fps is going to show zilch difference on the receiving end. When you take that fact into account and then consider availability of ammo, price of ammo, availability and price of components, resale value, this one is a no brainer to me. The Lott is the only way to go.

I would probably build the Ackley because it does have the ability to fire the Lott and Winchester cases. This is easy for me to suggest due to the idea I allready have two 458 Wins in mag length actions and it's not my money your spending- but I do like the interchangeability and the very slight added case capicity. So if it were me I wouldn't do it without the loading dies to keep with the rifle and just handload for it and use Lott/ Win cases only when needed. I think it would be a cool caliber. R.

I have been where you are and chose the Lott over the Ackley for practical reasons:

1. Substantially equivalent power;

2. SAAMI/industry standardized, non-wildcat status;

3. Consequent ready availability of:

i. factory loaded ammunition;
ii. properly headstamped brass;
iii. chambering reamers; and
iv. loading dies; and

4. Last but not least, the relatively low cost of all of the above.

Darwin himself, if he were alive, would declare that the Lott is the fitter of the two rounds.

One thing to consider, is your recovery time with heavy loads for follow up shots. 100 to 200 fps with 500gr bullets WILL make a difference in how fast you can get off a second or third aimed shot. Also, how well do you truely handel recoil in the 70-85 ft# range.

Keith

The Ackley is neat but I prefer the 450 Watts.....And by default the Lott........Downloading the Lott to 2100 fps w/500 gr bullet makes it fun and easier to play with .....I would go with the Lott......as I already did...

.458 lott for sure !!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Okay, maybe it is just me, or maybe it is just Monday, but for the life of me I cannot understand how folks can get all worked up over 50 to 100 fps. A 500 grain bullet moving at 2200 fps and one moving at 2300 fps is going to show zilch difference on the receiving end. When you take that fact into account and then consider availability of ammo, price of ammo, availability and price of components, resale value, this one is a no brainer to me. The Lott is the only way to go.

Mike,

I used to be bewildered at all the nitpicking discussions and wildcat development discussed ad infinitum on the Big Bore Forum. Developing an extra 2 fps in some new cartridge is all that is needed to justify some new cartridge compared to the off-the-shelf version.

Best just to stand back and let the boys play. It is a momentum all unto its own.

this is why Will drives a 1948 buick that does not have: power steering, brakes, windows, or air conditioning and just a standard AM radio...if it was good enough for folks back then, it's good enough for Will. None of this namby-pamby new stuff for Will, there's not enough improvement over the old '48 to justify anything newer.
See how silly that sounds...? Following that logic of "if it worked before ____ came along, then go with the old.". The classic _____ is constantly being challenged by the new______.

I am hoping I do not offend you Will, just trying to make a point here about progress. Cordite was what made most of the calibers we choose today worthwhile. You have to consider it one of the wonderful things about NE cartridges, and the classic 1900-1950 Safari era. Know anybody still using it? No, because there are "improvements". No improvement in ballistics to speak of, so why is it so popular? People are too lazy to clean their rifles properly? How are you on Berdan priming? Boxer doesn't do a darn thing for accuracy or velocity.

New isn't always "better", but "better" IS always "better".

Just questioning your stand on "new & better".

regards,

Rich
DRSS

If you want to spend money on change when the change is better or not you are of course free to do so. But the claims that the Ackley is better than the Lott is just silly.

And cartridge belts? Such horror!

And the 375 Ruger is better? Better than what?

There are lots of changes for change sake, but where is the significant betterment?

Recent dvelopments in flat point homogeneous bullets are a betterment, but flat nose bullets and driving bands are old, old news. Just new to the hunting biz.

Powders are much better but they are still used in old fashioned Mauser actions. Unless you are a fan of Blazers, nothing much has changed in the last 100 years except tweaking.

And as concerns hunting, disregarding the military, where is the big breaktrough in firearms and ammunition? Not that I feel a big breakthrough is needed, but it is mostly redesigning the wheel.

I am steeped in tradition admittedly. But where is your big innovation?

To be fair in this tit for tat any innovations are stymied by legislatures.

As to "sporting firearms" any innovations are forced to be within the restriction of primitive designs.

No automatic weapons, no more than three shells for miigratory birds, steel shot, no electronic calls, no scopes on blackpowder firearms, etc.

Though game departments pimp license sales claiming that every tree hides twenty deer, they do everything they can to assure small harvests.

One could imagine the reaction to laser guided bullets!

So under these impediments to innovation, it is just tweaking the known technologies.

Will,

You can still shoot a 450 Ackley. It was designed before I was born (1952).

The rifle I borrowed from Bill was built sometime prior to that on a mod 70 action and it would chamber empty shell casings.

And it headspaced on the shoulder, not the belt.

For this reason alone, it is superior to the Lott and .458 WM.

Just neck up 416 Remington brass.

It is a great cartridge if you want an honest to god 2400 fps with a conventional 500 grain FMJ.

It will do anything a 460 GA or 450 Dakota will do, and I own both.

If low pressure is your thing, you can always load it down to Lott velocities. It also gives you enough powder capacity to use monometal bullets at about -100 fps, something that is hard or impossible to deal with in the Lott.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Mike,

I used to be bewildered at all the nitpicking discussions and wildcat development discussed ad infinitum on the Big Bore Forum. Developing an extra 2 fps in some new cartridge is all that is needed to justify some new cartridge compared to the off-the-shelf version.

Best just to stand back and let the boys play. It is a momentum all unto its own.

It is interesting to sort of watch rationality and reason get tossed by the wayside in preference to a performance enhancement that is beyond the capability of many chronographs to even measure -- or so it would seem sometimes.

If you're going to use a belted case in 45 cal, the 458 lott is practical sensible choice. Factory round, factory dies, lots of modern tested load data, and factory rifles.

Yes, the ackley can slightly beat it, but if you really want more capacity and performance, don't mess around, jump up to a 450 Rigby or 460 Wetherby.

Obviously some of the posters here never really modified a fast car or a Harley and probably really don't want to either. If stock, off the shelf is your bag then more power to you. Buy a Lott and enjoy it!Have fun! However, you won't be beating me at the drags though, I can assure you with ANY stock car ( yes even a Veyron) as I run Pro-stock 7.2 ,( 198 mph) in my trans-am, Bickel car. For some of us the fun is in the little power gains and the understanding that eventually leads to the big gains. As they used to say about motorcycling. If I have to explain it to you then you'll never understand. Wildcats are the shooting worlds equivalent of modiefied cars. Heck just getting the idea is half the fun. Sometimes though you come up with a winner. The .600Ok and 12 GaFH are pretty good examples of that. Think of the .450 Ackley as a hot-rodded Lott. Its more about the fun and difference than being practical. Besides, it really does go faster!-Rob

Andy, if you neck up the 416 rem to .458, would that not be a .458 Lott ?

I'm having a CZ 550 in 458 wm reamed out to the Lott with a long throat like the win mag has to start with. I believe this will allow me to get a honest 2400 fps with a 500 grainer as well.

If the Lott is not enough, then go to one of the 1/2" rounds. Bigger bullets work better than faster bullets for DG.

Keith

Regarding increased velocities; It seems I've read there is a point of diminishing ,if not negative returns, on upping velocities beyond the 2100 fps or so mark in terms of penetration. For practical hunting I suppose, that is a consideration. OTOH, I can appreciate the enthusiast who sets new goals and strives to achieve them purely as an avocation.

.458 Win mag is easy to exceed 2100 fps, why would you need more? Dangerous game is shot at close range