Haven't seen it mentioned before. Here's an interesting little carbine. Not in this boards bread and butter 458 Lott's league, but pretty cool none the less.

Realguns Review

I'll have to look at when I am at the SHOT show I January.

I like the idea just in time for the HPA to pass.

It will get Crucified. A push feed with a detached mag?

Nice!

Kind of reminds me of the Remington AAC-SD 300 blackout. 16" threaded barrel

quote:

Originally posted by Slider:
It will get Crucified. A push feed with a detached mag?

It's not for us. What it really is, though, is a vector to get kids shooting a big rifle, like
Paw-Paws, and keep the sport alive.

With that threaded barrel it should be easy to exploit the subsonic potential - but what is the heaviest .452" projectile you can sit atop a load of trailboss and still expect to open up in a deer?

This looks cool. If I lived in the US I would have to try one!

why .452? just dumb!

Agreed... The concept is, as I recall derived, for us in the AR. LeGendre also did .45 ACP in 30 M1 carbines if I recall. So the concept was I guess sub gun based so pistol calibre based. Still 458 would a good bit nicer.

yep .. ,458 would have been a much better choice .. though there's some limits on the brass, it can work

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
why .452? just dumb!

That surprised me too. In the beta vs vhs, wsm vs rsaum competition 458 Socom looked like the clear winner. But, I guess they dragged their feet on SAAMI certs and Ruger was only going with something Hornady already made.

quote:

Originally posted by Buglemintoday:
Nice!

Kind of reminds me of the Remington AAC-SD 300 blackout. 16" threaded barrel

compared to the Remington, the ruger stock is very noisy.

quote:

Originally posted by AFRICAN LEADWOOD:
Agreed... The concept is, as I recall derived, for us in the AR. LeGendre also did .45 ACP in 30 M1 carbines if I recall. So the concept was I guess sub gun based so pistol calibre based. Still 458 would a good bit nicer.

If memory serves, LeGendre made carbines in both 45 Winchester magnum and 50 AE.

The 450 Bushmaster was designed to shoot the .452 250gr Flextip SST out of a 16" AR barrel and have a relatively flat trajectory at 200yds. It was designed for use in areas where pistol caliber carbines were allowed for deer hunting while rifle calibers were not.
250 gr (16 g) SST 2,214 ft/s (675 m/s) 2,722 ft·lbf (3,691 J)

I favor the 458 cal bullet diameter as well and that's why I never bought the 450 Bushmaster. However I wouldn't be disappointed with it if I had one.

should i do the 458 BushBuster?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
should i do the 458 BushBuster?

No do a 458 SS b&m Michael and I think it will work through a 5.56 AR action-

I have one on a winchester WSSM action 16in barrels that not only is a hog killing machine but I took my Lion with it.

good point - though i was thinking bushmaster to .458 straight, one pass, improvement

What is the max case diameter of 458 SS b&m and to what pressures is it loaded? What is the rim diameter?

I ask because the case diameter of the .450 Bushmaster is .501" and it reduces chamber walls significantly when compared to the .223 case. To make up for that the Bushmaster round is a 40,000 psi cartridge.

The .541" base diameter of the .458 SOCOM case reduces chamber walls even more, ridiculously so. But it also is loaded to lower pressures to compensate. It is a 35,000 psi cartridge.

I am not familiar with the 458 SS b&m but if it would reduce AR15 chamber wall thickness like the 458 SOCOM and if it is loaded to full modern magnum pressures it could be a disaster waiting to happen.

Again, I am not familiar with that cartridge. So, I am asking you to please tell us about it.

What the Hey...this is NOT a DG rifle and never was designed as one in the first place as far as I can determine...hasn't that argument been beat to death, push feed vs captured cartridge and a bit of tape will keep the clip from getting lost...NO FLAME OR DISS INTENDED.

Ye...a 458 bullet MIGHT be better...whose worried about 0.006" bullet diameter(the old 505 or 510 argument again...use what YOU want!!!) and the rifle is a concept rifle for basically specifically being used in states with limiting regulations...the 450 B is basically a PISTOL cartridge that is also useful in rifles...!!! Michigan's BS.

Nothing more than the 450 M VS 45-70 or how many other comparisons.

T/C barrels are available for is for those who might like to partake.

Lots of neat YouTube's and other data online for those who might want to take a real, hard, CLOSE look at it.

I think it's cool...

Luck

yo.. chill -- why don't you ASK why before flying off the handle - let's be clear -- .458 can also be a pistol round for MI --- the end of that part of the thread

why? 405gr rem bullets are very effective, cheap, available, and don't deform in a mag

and are an excellent NA hunting bullet .. no one in their right mind would think of this as an african cart...

ESPECIALLY someone that designs bigbores for african hunting, that created the 45/120 NE , and knows the 45/70 isn't a DR round...

there's no reason on the planet to limit this type of cart to pistol bullets, which aren't designed for 2k impact speeds ...

sorry, pretty annoyed at this response.. i DO kind of know what i am doing when it comes to big bore cart design, aye?

Well...Dam...isn't that always the case here on AR...someone ALWAYS takes some kind of umbrage even when there wasn't any intended...I took the "push feee and clip fed" as a sideways comment reference to DG...sorry if I took it wrong...SEE how comments can be mis-interpreted.

And...Yes...I DO know you know a thing or three about design and EVERYONE has their pet's...I too have done a bit of design in my day, I just don't always bother to post all my exploits....boils down to not caring whether you think I'm an idiot, deranged or just delusional...so... Yo' Bro', chillax yo'self....let us agree to disagree...I DID SAY NO FLAME OR DISS INTENDED...or did you miss that.

Way back when this Michigan law change was being discussed here, I did do a half dozen or so cartridge designs for various calibers, but because this law didn't apply to me, I wasn't all that interested in spending money on barrel work just to see what they would do on the chrono then post it all over the net to be a "Big Man", I made a few comments, Saved the data, said to myself, "Good on you" Mate, there is some good stuff there and dropped it.

I correctly guessed that if there were a market for something along these lines it would become commercially available...and voila...here it is...no need to reinvent the wheel again...all the components are commercially available, I don't have to go nuts reforming cases and buying new reamers just to have a "one off".

Basically it is nothing more than a shortened 284 or a rimless 260 S$W....people still go after DG with pistols, bows and arrows and sling shots for all I know... I think a few have taken African game with the 460 S$W when it first came out.

I have to ask you...in this day and age with all the "out of their minds" people going to Africa with who knows what kinds of shooters...what IS an African cartridge??? While your granddaddy's cannon is probably still viable, the world has turned and there are a ton of "New Kids" on the block cannons and only a few will see the world outside.

Hey...you and I both know all the ways to make strange and exotic cartridges and how to make a silk purse out of a sows ear in reference to bullet "de-formation"...there ISN'T much room for arguments nowadays except to split hairs that really don't mean much in hunting situations...in my humble opinion, yours may differ and they are BOTH OK.

I have an LR-308 and Brownell's has 450 B barrels available, I checked the barrel availability ~6 months ago, originally for a 338 Fed barrel...I just have to convince myself for the need(very easy to do), work through the process to see the costs and I might be sporting another squirrel shooter come spring, the easy way. Reamers and 45 cal barrels are readily available for those who want a switch barrel for there SA/LA rifles...as are a ton of OTHER WILDCAT offerings...this game has been around for a LONG time and there are VERY FEW holes available to stuff another wild cat into and litters being born every minute.


Luck

Merry Christmas and Happy Yule .. i flew off the handle, sorry

450 Bushmaster is one of a small number of rounds that are legal to hunt deer with in Indiana and Ohio. Maybe, that's the market Ruger are targeting.

This AR-15 conversion seems to hit certain aspects and areas of the shooting public rather hard...the web is FULL of You Tube vids and quick simple cheap fixes for the ejector port jam problem and standard mag conversions...but from what I can gather there may be a saturation of the market in some areas or the supply is being snatched up faster than it can be resupplied.

I DON'T need another 45 cal cannon, but this one has peaked my curiosity enough to add this caliber to my 204 Ruger and Grendel list.

This platform is easier and quicker than barrel swapping on the Savage platform...

The .458 Socom is the answer for the .458 vs the .452 bullet question. It was also designed to be shot out of the AR Platform using standard GI magazines.

quote:

Originally posted by Palladin8:
The .458 Socom is the answer for the .458 vs the .452 bullet question. It was also designed to be shot out of the AR Platform using standard GI magazines.

i actually know marty --

and yes it's a great round, but i don't agree on the licensed reamers. being a designer myself, i have always granted access to all requests. Always - that i can't order a reamer and make my own barrels kind of galls me -- as i look at a stuck project for the same

Well...what the He**...after trying to get the 375 WSM off the ground, ordering a Rem SPS 300 Win for the action... which fell through...taking another look at the total costs involved and finding a complete AR upper for $300...which simplified barrel swapping considerably...I threw up my hands and ordered all the pieces and parts this AM from Midway and Brownell for the 450 Bushmaster...I will end up with a complete rifle (in less than 2 weeks) for MUCH less than the cost of all the wildcat components and NOT have to wait 2-3 months and do all the metal work my self.

I don't see what the furor over the 0.006" difference between 0.452" and 0.458", or even the 0.048" difference in the 0.500" Beowulf...or the ease in which to make cases or just buy FACTORY AVAILABLE ammo AND brass. Compared to the 50 Beowulf, this conversion is a piece of cake...NO mucking about with extractor port opening unless you absolutely want to, which can be done with a Dremel tool...and MUCH cheaper brass, plus nothing but a follower to convert standard AR mags.

Anyway it's all over but the shouting and I'm look forward to the arrival of the pieces and parts.

Besides 3' of snow basically snows me in...I'll need a backhoe to get me out or a heavy rain and a week of warm weather which is not likely...no way I can get to my lathe...

Per usual, there is always conflicting opinions not matter WHAT the rifle/pistol/shotgun is...I have 10 some odd different rifles in 40 - 72 cal so this contraption is something I don't absolutely need, but it will certainly be medicine for anything that happens to want to cause a ruckus...Hahahahahah

Luck

remington 405gr bullets -- and the .458 is the more common big bore bullet to shoot ... and it's not just a glorified pistol round ...

but, opinions vary, which makes for horse races and gun swaps

That's true...This particular cannon's FACTORY AMMO offerings compares very favorably to a 300 gr 45-70 trapdoor load...power AND velo wise...not to put to fine a point on it...but this "glorified pistol round" can do it in a 16" bbl, semi auto, 9 shooter...NOT a XX" or longer barreled single shot or a 20-24" 4-5 shot levergun...and on ANY AR-15 platform...How fast can YOU change uppers???...I don't see very many bad things to dissuade me from a good time with it...and killing anything that walks the earth now.

I can't really find anything wrong with "a glorified pistol round" no matter what case size or caliber. I would have gone with a 50 Beowulf...EXCEPT for the proprietary stuff and case price, REALLY large extractor port and a few other glitches...but that's not out of the question just yet...that depends on how this 450 B works out.

I have several 45-70, 450 M, 458 American and 458 WM's in single shot, levergun and bolt guns...I don't see many problems with them either....besides I don't think that 2700 ftlbs on tap is anything to sneeze at, in a "glorified Pistol round", 308 or 45-70 case...look what people do with a all those other "pistol rounds...lots of ele, buff, lions, tigers, leopards and jaguars not to mention all the edible things that have fallen to..."those other hand cannons".

Luck

Now you did it.

On an Ares.
Right side cock upper
smooth tube FF handguard
target crown
1.5-4 scope

sorry man, i don't get the level of reaction .. i ain't, not one, criticized you . .

i think the round would be far better as .458 ... and yeah, i don't think much of a .452 case bigger than a 45 colt .. for lots of actually technical reasons.

i haven't, nor would i, knock YOU for deciding to have a .452 whatever ...

i do, however, knock the designer for it being a .452 --

i AINT going after you, though i seem to be reading into your posts that you are taking this as somewhat personal or deriding you for your choices - far from it ...

anyway, enjoy your ar

quote:

Originally posted by mehulkamdar:
450 Bushmaster is one of a small number of rounds that are legal to hunt deer with in Indiana and Ohio. Maybe, that's the market Ruger are targeting.

That is exactly correct. A southern Michigan Gunshop owner approached Ruger with the idea because of recent changes in the hunting laws that allow such rounds in that part of the state, and not just shotgun slugs, as was previously the law. There is a you YouTube video explaining all of this and also demonstrating some incredible sub 1" accuracy from the little rifle. Hornady's reloading data indicates a 1-24" twist test barrel was used. I don't know if this is the standard or not, but Ruger was either smart or just practical, and used the 1 a 16" twist, same as their 45 Colt revolver barrels. I don't know about chamber specs for this round, but heavy cast bullets up to 400 grains sounds doable, if the throats will allow it, and would thump an elk no problem.

Computer took a ripping, gigantic Murphy and went to surgery to get sewed up, Monday...been walking around hollow eyed and dead since.

See...there it is again...interpretation, MIS-interpretation and umbrage take when there ISN'T/WASN'T any...just stating my opinion as you do...dance with who you brung...I do.

And...OF COURSE...almost ANYTHING and EVERYTHING said on forums is "personal" to a large extent otherwise WHO would bother responding.

I looked at the 458 SOCOM and 50 Beowulf as all the components are available for the AR platform and basically picked that one because is commercially available...and the others have a bunch of PITA attached someplace...but those do work for many people, so what the hey, enjoy your toys.

Actually the dies for the 458 SOCOM are half the cost of those for the 450 B...because the 450 B is a 4 die set... doesn't matter tho'...any ol' ? X 284 sizer die will work, and expander crimpers and seaters can be used from several 45 cal die sets including 45-70, 45 APC, 45 colt, etc...it only took a couple hours of mucking about finding which worked to come up with a 450 Bushmaster case from ONE piece of my expensive, and benchrest prepped , 6.5 x 284 Norma brass...because all my other WW and REM cheep chit 284 brass was buried under 4 foot of snow.

Pieces are trickling in...single shot mag followers arrived today...barrel, gas block, and tube and upper due Friday, they are in Hermiston ,Or now...200, 250 and 300 gr Hornady bullets in hand...you have to look closely to tell the difference between the 300 gr 0.429" 444 Marlin and the 300 gr 0.452" bullets...

Within hunting distances and for the rifles/game these cartridges and 200-300 gr bullets are used for, I haven't heard any new arguments the are worth getting up over...but that's what choice is for... ARGUMENTS.

Matt, I think someone tagged this neat toy with the moniker of "Thumper"...I see no trouble resizing a 405 gr Rem (or other brand) 0.458" lead bullet to 0.452", probably get upwards of 31-3200 ftlbs in a 24" bbl...the only "problem area" is the 60 gr case limits, which, again, isn't really that much of a limit in realistic ranges considering the 375 Winchester and it's "puny" 220 gr bullet is known for putting an elk steak or two on the barbee and a few black bear along the way.

Luck

Realguns has a very good two part article on the 450 Bushmaster. The author tried all sorts of loads. He got good results shooting Hornady 300gr SST bullets. You should read the entire article but here is where he discusses the 300gr SST load.

quote:

What does a muzzle loader and Bushmaster have in common?

Remember the comment about finding comparables? There are a number of modern 50 caliber magnum muzzle loaders that thrive on triple charges of black powder and deliver MOA 300 yard performance. They ingest sabot mounted bullets, with most of the mounted bullets are 0.451" in diameter.

Left, a 250 grain Hornady SST bullet used as a sabot projectile and as the bullet in the company's 450 Bushmaster ammo. Far left is a 300 grain Hornady SST bullet used in the company's 50 caliber sabot mounted bullets and not loaded in 450 Bushmaster ammunition.

There are others from various manufacturers, but these were good for testing the issue of bullet length versus twist rate and velocity and for getting to accurate handloads with a 16" twist.



Above, 100 yard groups shot with spire tip bullets. Left 250 grain Hornady factory ammo, center 250 grain Hornady SST handload 3/4", right 300 grain Hornady SST handload 5/8". Clearly the shifted center of gravity or center of pressure were a good match for the 16" twists.



I believe this gives us two good hunting loads, one suppressed load and a starting point to fill out the rest. We'll be back when we have had a chance to work through some more bullets. For anyone loading for a rifle with a slower twist, the first data set should deliver acceptable accuracy.

http://www.realguns.com/articles/882.htm

Thanks, Grenadier...seems like no matter what it is someone has already wrung it out and found new ways to apply alternative solution's.

I've tried a few sabot in my smoke poles without much success...all have slow twists and digest round balls the best. Definitely NOT 300 yd MOA...but 300 FEET produce almost as good groups as those depicted before dropping like a bad habit.

I will definitely read that article...

Luck

Well...RATSHATT...wouldn't you know it, Murphy's up to his old tricks...all the good stuff missed their Friday delivery date, wouldn't you know it...Friday the 13th and all that stuff.

Brownells, which usually takes the longest got here today, barrel, gas block and tube. Very nice looking barrel, I will need to turn a muzzle brake/flash hider to fit the 3/4" threaded muzzle...when it warms up a bit.

UPS got hammered by the weather and is behind schedule and with Monday being a holiday plus heavy rains expected Monday night onward I will be lucky to see the upper by Friday. ...Don't know WHEN I'll see the ammo.

Can't complain too much...could always be worse...I could be living in the UK where they will shoot first THEN ask questions if they even think you harbor such a toy. Hahahahahaha

By the By, Grenadier, I read that article...lots of good stuff there and I found a 450 Bushmaster forum plus another set of load data online...don'cha just LUV this internet thingy.

Luck

I got all excited about the Ruger version, then found out it was a limited run and they are out of them.

Yeah...AND for a limited back East area.

Anyone that doubts it's potentials needs to take a look at the 450 B forums and just what the fertile minds of shooters have done...like 3000 fs with the Horn 200 FTX...now compare that with some other calibers...

I'm not sure whether I would go that far...on an AR platform, bolt gun yes...some of this was done back in 2010.

2700-3000 fs, 45 cal, 200 gr bullet...YOU decide if this is "just" an elongated pistol cartridge.

Luck

apparently i've irritated you - i don't think you get my point on .458 bullets --

as for a pistol bullet at 2 (or 3) times intended vels? yeah,i know EXACTLY what that means and does - frankly i experimented with that 20+ years ago .. it's interesting on varmits, with horrible results on game one intended to eat --

No, you're not irritating me...Yes, I understand the differences in bullet construction...Yes, I fully understand your point on .458" bullets...and more to the point there are many OTHER 0.452" bullets out there besides Hornady's(cast lead, custom, CNC) and bullets designed for large cal, high velo pistols...the FTX bullets were constructed specifically for the 450 B, Hornady's manual gives bullet design information...and you might also check out the 450 B forums on how the various bullets perform on game....lots of folks seem to find them highly desirable and effective on things they've plonked...others not so desirable...no different that all the hoohaw on other bullets.

It's YOUR choice and responsibility to find and use an effective bullet in an effective manor...although that might not always happen.

I can't speak to those posts I mentioned or the bullets as yet because I'm still waiting for pieces and parts, but I certainly will do my own evaluations as soon as possible...my sand box will determine just how well the FTX bullets will hold together just as it has determined the worthiness of many and various bullets from 17 to 50 cal...

There's also the question of 16" AR vs 20" Rifle as to velo and pressures to consider when deciding what bullet will hold up or not and ONLY TESTING will determine that...you know all this...twenty years worth of development has produced a lot of changes bullet design and construction and wide variability and availability.

Yeah, I been doing this game for a while too.

Luck