Me as well... <sigh> I think that makes 22 or 23...

Kev,

I think I can 3 down and maintain the "lines" of the scaled up rifle. Currently have a good idea of how the ejector will be fitted, and how to get a controlled round push feed (think Winchesters latest design, the Savage 116 Safari, and Sako's M75 Safari) extractor fitted into the design as well. Barrel will be 1.25" at the breech with 1.125" X 12 TPI threads contoured down to 0.910" at the muzzle. Barrel length will be 24".

Going to scale the butt stock up to allow a 14.5" LOP and an adequate footprint for such a potent kicker. Those mods oughta put a significant dent in the ol' recoil department.

Anyway, it will take a few months to get everything drawn up, checked, stack-ups done, and figure out how to do all the machining. To me that is the fun part, second only to actually making the rifle. Shooting it is just the frosting on the cake, BTW did I mention how much I like frosting!

If you think of anything else that may be of interest to a designer of SUPERSIZED lever action rifle, let me know. Constructive advise is always appreciated.

Scott

Well I take it your answer to my question is NO! Just as I thought. By the way, there is no way I would post the serial numbers of any of my rifles on the internet! Sorry Chuck ain't gonna happen.



Stay tuned though and I will get a picture of one of my lever guns for you. I suspect it may well be the only lever gun you may have actually ever used (or one similar to it):



Here it is Chuck, I can call you Chuck? Like I said, I strongly suspect his is the only lever action, or one very similar, you have ever handled let alone shot!







Scott

Jaycocreek,
The 300 gr. bullet is too short, expands to quick and cannot penitrate enough, that is because is has no sectional density...A dangerous game bullet IMo should be 2.5 times its cross section or there abouts...

My grandson shot a Bison this year with the 450 gr. 50 Beowolf at I suppose 1900 FPS. shot him twice once with a soft and another with a solid, both corebonds I believe..That big boy went a mile or so and lived probably 45 minutes or there abouts...it simply didn't work as neither bullet penitrated to the off side rib cage..Not the first time I have seen such behavior in some of these old calibers. I shot them a lot some years ago and gave up on them as I used them more..I shot a lot of game with the 45-90 at one time, it was a good deer rifle, but it was slow on killing elk from time to time.

I would think the new Browning Win 95 in a 375 Hawk would be the best of the lever guns for Africa..or one in a 9.3x62 would really work well and both are legal with a stout handload....

I am also interrested in Kevs 50-110 as that is getting pretty close I think, but some say he is loading it too hot, if it gets 2000 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet, but even a 450 monolithic FN such as GS Customs makes would work as the monos are longer for weight and that changes the SD picture...

I don't see any lever gun that has a frame large enough to build a 577 and it would surly be near impossible froma a recoil standpoint...

I really wonder sometimes when some of these guy dismiss recoil from some of these big guns, I been shooting them a long time and some of the that are referred to as a big push must be loaded down..My 470 with 500 gr. bullets at 2245 is heineous, absolute horror! At 2100 I can shoot it, but I don't enjoy a day at the range with anything over a 404 or 416...Truth be most of these big bores stand in the the owners gun cabinets and are mostly for braggen purposes methinks, as I never see a modern well worn big bore rifle for sale, have you?

I'm guessing that's the new frame for your 577 lever gun Like I said before. Drop me a note when you get this project done and you find some one dumb enough to shoot it. I'll sure you'll get back to me with more lip and innuendo's but I'm betting we wont see this project done until the second tuesday of next week. I do find it amusing that you keep the old Daisy polished up for your next safari, gotta have a back up gun huh

Ray-Thank you for the insight on your experiences with the leverguns.Being fairly new (3-years)to the 45-70 I have only had the chance to read about it with little experience and a bunch of fun reloading for it.My main rifle is a 300 Win Mag that I use for Elk and those peskie little whitetails.I used a 270 for years also but passed it down to my wife.
I got the 45-70 for the heavy thick timber that holds alot of Elk where I hunt.It is quicker to the target and easier to pack in the dense woods with less noise being quite abit shorter(The Guide Gun).My load is a 405 grain Bonded core Kodiak at 1900 fps and I am confident that it will do it's job if called to the task at 50-100 yards.As you I have seen alot of Elk killed with different calibers and different outcomes from spending 38 years working in the heart of some of Idaho's best Elk country.
I like the 45-70 but it cannot replace the other tried and proven cartridges for a given task such as Dangerous Game hunting.There are better choices out there that fill the bill better than the leverguns.But times haven't been better for the 45-70 with bullets like the Swift A-Frame and Barnes 300 XFN the NorthFork and others.

Best of luck.Jayco.

Chuck,

That ol' Daisy is hardly polished up. She wears a significant amount of rust. Rescued her from the barn a number of years ago. I had been a bad boy and neglected her for 30 years or so, got bigger and badder toys you know. I figured you might know something about BB guns though. Check out those "BBs" on the load bench. Those are .510" diameter 600gr Woodleigh PPSP sticking out of those cases.

No, we will make a new and unique lever action for the 577 NE. The Daisy is just too small.

Ray,

I would very much like to know if you chronographed those loads of your Grandson. I have not been able to exceed 1650 fps with a 450gr bullet in the Beowulf. The 1650 fps load, by the way, caused 0.005" to 0.007" case head expansion so I strongly recommend against using it! The fastest safe load I have is 1500 fps with a 450 grain slug. That is the most accurate load in my rifle as well grouping about 2.5" at 100 yards (oh boy, oh boy).

Scott

HI,

Scott, that sounds good 3 in the mag and the fact with the mag it will be able to shoot SP bullets, just have to make sure the mag will be able to handle longer length 577NE. MR. Atkinson, I am getting a 525 grain HC to 2200fps, this is the load I use at the range. I have a hunting load with a 500 grain Kodiak bullet and I get 2200fps with no problem. Now here I my get myself into trouble, I am trying to reload some woodeighs that I have flatten their nose, and weight is 550-560 grains. I am going to try to get to 2150-2200fps, this maybe to hot so I will have to be very careful,if I have any problem I just will keep them at 2000fps.Also who makes the lever in a 375 Hawk, I have heard of them before.MR. Atkinsom, MR. Clay also told me the same thing you said that to be care with any handload in a hot area like Africa, more so when one is pushing as much fps out of them. Kev

Hey Guys,

Could a .405 Winchester be long throated to accept longer, heavier bullets and increase the available powder capacity. If so, North Fork bullets is in the process of offering a 360 gr., bonded, .411 bullet. I'm not familiar with the pressure limitations of the .405 Win. action. but I'm sure that with the right powder, this could be a real thumper on anything that walks, swims or flies. The brass would be relatively inexpensive and for those of us in the U.S. it would be all American.

I am having a .405 (caliber) built on a P-14 action and I have had my gunsmith long throat this rifle. I am hoping for good results. Everything has been completed except the bluing. That should be completed within a couple months - I hope!

Just a thought on the lever action.

Good Shooting,

Smoker*

Kev,



Z-Hat custom rifles makes Winchester M1895 rifles into 375 Hawk , and 411 Hawks too (I see no major advantage with a 411 Hawk versus a 405 Win as they practically identical case capacities).



Some words of caution on your loads. Mind you this is all analytical stuff so pressure could be off by 10% of so. I am getting these numbers for your loads:



To get the a 555 gr Woodleigh (600 PPSP cut down) to 2140 fps with a COL of 2.88" I am using 71.5gr of powder and hitting 64000 psi!



Using a 535 gr Woodleigh softpoint with a flattened point (bullet length reduced by 0.1") and achieving 2170 fps with a COL of 2.88" I am using 75 gr of powder and hitting 61500 psi.



Using a 525gr FNGC hard cast bullet and achieving 2190 fps with a COL of 2.88" I am using 76.5 gr of powder and hitting 59000 psi.



So your loads are probably on the hot side. Like I said though, the real pressures my be off by ~ 10%.



I started working on the design, and believe it or not, the 600 NE looks like it would work better than the 577 NE. Besides it has the added benefit of being able to shoot 20 gauge slugs (the 600 NE is a 20 bore afterall). So I am going to design this thing as a 600 NE / 20 ga From Hell (is From Hell a registered trademark if so I apologize and will not use it in the future).



The preliminary magazine box dimensions are:



Width front and rear - 0.96"

Length of box - 3.82"

Depth of box (rear) - 3.5"

Depth of box (front) - 2.9"

Magazine capacity - 3 round 600 NE



The action is taking shape. Barrel shank is 1.25" at the breech with 1 1/8" X 12 TPI (investigating going to 1.25" and probably will, which will bump the barrel shank to 1.375").



The action is bridged front and rear.



Front bridge is 1.75" long

Rear bridge is 2.25" long

Action width is 1.88"

Action length - 7.82"



Once drawings are done I will try and figure out how best to post them.



Scott



EDIT - this could be my new deer rifle when in shotgun country.

Smoker,

I posted some information about what is takes to fit a 400 gr pill into a 405 Win M1895 up on the 'African Hunting Forum' a few weeks ago.

If using Woodleigh bullets long throating is not necessary, as one runs out of magazine box length before engaging the riflings. The COL for a 400 gr Woodleigh in a 405 Win is 3.29" if I recall correctly. That places the bullet ~ 0.035" off the riflings and uses up all the magazine box. If you do not mind shooting loads in the mid 60 ksi range the rifle will do around 2150 fps. I load mine down a bit and settle for the 450/400 3" tropical load ballistics of 400grains @ 2050 fps. This drops the pressure into the high 50s. The M1895 has been loaded almost from the beginning in the 30-06 (SAAMI max avg pressure 60,000 psi) and in the 270 Win (SAAMI max avg pressure 62,000 psi). Both of those cartridges generate more thrust for a given operating pressure than does the 405 Win case.

By the way, my 405 Win has not jammed once in over 350 rounds fired. It even feeds upside down, imagine that!! Somebody in Japan knows how to form magazine guide rails!

Scott

What do you have to do to make the recoil tolerable? The Win 1895 has the worst ergonomics of any rifle I have ever handled.

When I first got my M1895, 405 Win, I had to agree that the recoil sucked. The rifle's single biggest problem, in my opinion, was the LOP was far too short. I found that when I got punched it was because I had taken the rifle off my shoulder to achieve a better sight alignment (in other words I am used to, very used to, 14.5" LOP on my rifles and this rifle was only about 13"). So To fix this I fitted a recoil pad to the rifle (needs a new one done as I fitted a prefit that did not have quite enough rubber in certain areas, but the it did work for "proof of concept"). This had two benefits:

1.) It increased the LOP to 14" , which for me anyway is far more liveable.

2.) It provided a cushion for the recoil.



So now, with the recoil pad, my M1895 is a pussy cat to shoot and a pure joy. It still kicks harder than my M70 Super grade 300 Win mag. It fits nicely between the 300 Winie and the 416 Rigby in recoil, which is precisely where physics says it should. The most surprising thing, to me anyway, is the fact that my right hand doesn't get banged up by the lever hoop! I figured that with the recoil of this rifle, particularly at the ballistics I shoot it at, my hand would get banged up, but it doesn't. The only issue I have with recoil now, is that my thumb bumps the safety on occasionally. This can be a pain since you have to physically look to see if the safety is on or off. The hammer cocks and the trigger releases the hammer so it appears at first that you have a dud in the chamber.



For the, now 600 NE/ 20ga FH, I will increase the cross-sectional area of the buttstock by ~ 33% and use a good high efficiency recoil pad. If that proves to be insufficient a muzzle brake will be added. However, I doubt that the brake will be very effective since the 600 NE is a highly efficient case and will have only a token muzzle pressure when loaded to CIP ballistic levels, which is precisely where I will load it.



Scott

Hi,

Scott, on the pressure with the 50-110 in the 86, you would than back off some,I guess.I have been using the 525HC at around 2200fps,but I am using H4895 with around 80.8 grains,and I have had no problem.I also look at what MR. Atkinson said pertaining to the 375 Hawk, and then you give me the Z-hat custom.That is a hell of a round and I wonder why we have not heard to much about it,it is really close if not the same as a 375H+H. I see they have a 270 Hornady RN at 2,529 and a 270Sp at 2,552 and a 285 speer at 2510, a 300 grain Hornady at 2,397 fps. That is right there with a 375 H+H, I would use that anywhere,Kev

Scott,
No I did not chronograph the rifle. It was a bolt gun built on the little Mk10 223 action by Jim Brockmon, Jim gave me those figures and funished the custom loaded ammo from Corebond I believe...The quoted figures were theres.

Kev,
The 375 Hawk is an easy conversion with the Browning M-95 knock off of the Win M-95, and the Browning is much stronger.....The 375 Hawk is quite a rifle IMO..I have not chronographed it, and am always suspect of manufacturers and gunsmith claims of velocity as they usually get all its got for advertisment purposes, in fact so do the factories.......but I think the Hawk is a legit caliber...But you must keep in mind that a 9.3 case ( Hawks case ) necked up to 375 does not have the case powder capacity of a 375 H&H, so its not going to perform at the same pressure for a given velocity..the Hawk will have to perform at considerably higher pressure...This may be acceptable and it may not, that remains to be seen, until someone has tested them...I am sure someone has, but its best to do that yourself..

One thing some folks tend to over look and that is the case that holds the most powder is the most powerfull, that in itself will make it outperform a smaller case in a proper rifle...

I think your big 50 is the berries and it sure will hammer a buff or elephant in style at those velocities with those big bullets of sufficient SD, and even at less than your getting, all you need is 2000 to 2100 IMO...and with a 577 you could lower the velocity even more. A 750 gr. bullet 1900 is all in the world you need...Somewhere at over 50 plus caliber, then bullet mass gets so big that things allow less velocity up to a point. Most of this stuff was finalized by trail and error, not charts, throry, or mad raveings by gunnuts...

Jaycocreek,
The 300 gr. 50 cal or 45 cal, bullet has a lot of energy, due to velocity, but energy to be effective must get to where its going to do any good, and that bullet at 2600 plus fps, would expend all its energy on the shoulder of a Buffalo and not penitrate as it has no acceptable SD..An example is the 220 swift 40 gr. bullet at near 4000 FPS has as much energy as lets say a 470 N.E., around 4500 FPS I think, but it expends all that energy on contact with the skin of a buffalo, so energy in itself is not a good guide, in fact energy tables have no real substance IMO...nor does hydralic shock, except on water jugs and grapefruit, and some small varmints that explode because the temporary cavity was to large and busted them wide open, but on a big Buff for instance that temporary cavity just comes back to normal because of the elasticity of the innards of a Buff, and the permenent cavity of the bullet does the damage, that is a big hole the same size more or less all the way through him and out the other side, it has torn, ripped and cut its way in and out, creating a lot of blood loss and stops the oxygen to the brain...hope I am not getting too technical, I hate tech talk for the most part, but I don't know any other way to explain it, other than for a bullet to work, its like your car, let all the gas (blood) out and it will cease to perform, same with Buffalo and it takes a long for caliber bullet to do that...

I was asked the above questions by those mentioned and I hope I didn't leave anyone out.

I wish we could talk Marlin or Browning into coming out with a 50-110 in a old '86 variant. I would run to the gun shop

ScottS, overall I still dont grasp the crux of your project. If you can make it work more power to you. The real problem I see is recoil. IF you can overcome the physical size and feeding problems. The first shot would be so brutal that there would not really be any possability IMO of a reliably accurate follow up shot. That seems to defeat the purpose of the lever gun but would make a intersting SS proposition on say a Ruger # 1.

The most powerfull lever gun I am aware of at this point is the 510 Kodiak Express and I have only ever talked to one person that built one and takes it to Africa as a backup. This will propel a 450 Barnse solid at around 2300 FPS with roughly 5,000 of energy. BRUTAL. It is a intersting combination of cartridges and solves the OAL problem by using a case of 2.33" . I think the 50-110 has a brass length of 2.750". The Marlin 45-70 would be a better base. Even so you would need to completely rework and strengthen the entire gun. Adding as much mercury as possible in the stock and getting the biggest recoil pad available. In fact I would think all of the wood should be glass reinforced. If you get beyond this in a lever gun I would much rather shoot the old daisy.

I still think a cartridge in the 416 range would be fun to develop in a LG with the wide selection of bullets and brass to work with in that range.

How about a Browning BLR in something mag, 7mm?, then rebarrel for 416 or 375 taylor?

I think that would be the berries

HI,

MR. Atkinson, I think I am going to keep the fps down to around 2000-2100, and be happy with it just to be safe. I really like the 375Hawk and I am going to check it out some more.If you get a chance to get some more information on it, I would like to hear about what you are getting with different bullet weights,. Kev

HI,


Chuckwagon, the length on the 50-110 is 2.4, it is alittle longer than the 510express,Kev

Hey Scott,

Sounds like you have one great .405! I hope that on the
P-14 action I will get the same mechanical results. Velocity wise, I am hoping for a little better results.

I have to decide on a powder that will give good velocity and accuracy with the 360 gr. North Fork. I am hoping that RL-15 will work well. The chamber has been long throated in order to take advantage of longer bullets and the barrel is a 29 inch, #5 contour Shilen. With the longer throat for more powder capacity and the longer barrel, I am hoping for more complete combustion of the RL-15 and therefore, more velocity. We'll see...

Good Shooting,

Smoker

Chuckwagon,

I really do not understand your reasoning for saying a lever action 600 NE will be worse in recoil than a Ruger No1. Could you explain that to me in greater detail?

I am familiar with heavy recoiling rifles. For instance, my 8 pound 405 Win doesn't kick anything near as hard as my 11.5 pound 416 Rigby. The 11.5 pound 416 Rigby feels like a 30-06 compared to my 11 pound 500 AHR. The 500 AHR is comparable to the 12.5 pound 577 NE.

So I naturally assumed that a 12 pound 600 NE lever action, loaded with a 900 gr pill at Jeffery's 1850 fps, would kick about like the 500 AHR or 577 NE. I have no illusions that the recoil will be very heavy, and beyond what the vast majority of shooters could handle. The truth is that the various 500s kick far too hard for most shooters. Actually, there are very few people who have fired off my 416 Rigby that wanted to fire a second shot!

When someone posts here that there 585 or 600 this or that doesn't kick, I have always thought one of two things:
1.) They don't actually have a 585 or 600 this or that.
2.) They have down loaded their 585 or 600 this or that to 20 gauge shotgun levels.

Scott

scottS:

i can't believe you'd accuse someone of exaggerating. that's just not like you .

fish280,

A couple questions if you don't mind.

1.) When did I ever exaggerate?
2.) Who am I supposedly saying is exaggerating?

Smoker,

I think you will get far better results with something along the lines of Rel7, IMR 3031, IMR4895, W748. Reloder 15 is far too slow to achieve optimum velocity in the 405 Winchester, in my experience anyway.

Scott

Hey Scott,

You may be right. I have other powders I'd like to try but I'm hoping on the RL-15. If my Chrony is still working, I'll post the data. It will be a few months before I'll have anything.

Smoker

Well exageration comes to mind as you now have it kicked up to a 600 NE for a recoil comparison. It seems to make perfect sense to me that your 405 would kick less than the 416 considering the ballistics and weight of the bullet. Do you really think theese two are compatable for a apples to apples comparison ?
I do like your analagy of the no kicking rifle ( 20 guage ). That pretty much sums up what I was thinking myself
In either event I wish you the best of luck with that 700 NE lever gun

hey SS:
how about post #608673? (When someone posts here that there 585 or 600 this or that doesn't kick, I have always thought one of two things

fish,

That is no exaggeration! Have you ever shot any 585 NE, 585 Nyati, 577 T Rex, 600 NE, or any other rifle cartridge in this class, which was fired from a sporting rifle weight weapon (say 15 pounds MAX) that didn't kick very hard?

The largest diameter rifle I have ever shot is an 8 bore. It weighed around 17 pounds IIRC, it did not have a massive amount of recoil velocity, but it sure as hell did push! The bullet weighted around 1200 gr and the muzzle velocity was only something like 1150 fps. I have also fired hundreds of rounds (probably mighty close to 1500) in the 505 Gibbs, 500 A Square, and 500 AHR, plus a few through the ol' 500 Jeffery. All these rifles weighed between 10.5 and 12 pounds, and without a doubt EVERY SINGLE ONE kicked hard! Does their recoil bother me, no not really, but that doesn't mean that they still do not kick very hard. Their recoil velocities are all approaching 20 fps, which is twice what is considered the threshold of pain for the average shooter. I never tell anyone that a BIG rifle doesn't kick, cause they DO! Physics is physics, it is that simple.

By the way, a muzzle brake doesn't do a damned thing about the bullets momentum, which is the single largest contributor to recoil! I would rather shoot a 45 pound 50 BMG with no brake as than a 20 pound 50 BMG with the best brake money can buy (no exaggeration just the facts)! Of course a brake on that 45 pounder and you got yourself one pussy cat of a plinker! No matter what you have stuck on the muzzle you will have to deal with the momentum transfer of the bullet's mass times the bullet's velocity to the rifle's mass. It is for this reason that your rifle's mass is so very crucial to reducing felt recoil i.e. reducing recoil velocity which is what you fell punching you in the shoulder, slappin' your cheek, etc (recoil energy is just the shove, or more accurately the work of the recoil or how far it will push you not how fast). Muzzle brakes are practically worseless on any rifle, which is not over bore capacity or grotesquely short barrelled.

No exaggerations there.

Chuckwagon,

I stated the reasons for going with the 600 NE. You may not know this, but the 600 NE has a COL which is over 0.125" shorter than the 577 NE 3" (might have something to do with the 600 NE's 2.8" case length).

Scott

I missed a post about switching to the 600 NE. In either event I still wish you the best of luck on your project.

Kev,
I don't have a 375 Hawk, I have only read and studied up on the caliber...I have always wanted one on a 95 action, but would probably opt for a 9.3x62 to get a bit more shoulder working for me and thats as good a caliber and lot easier to get components for...and factory ammo...

As to recoil, I know that constant shooting of the huge bores is not condusive to your health, and like a boxer that constant slaming of your brain inside the skull is condusive to brain damage...not to mention joint and muscle structural damage that over a period of time becomes bursitas etc...I can attest to that....It is really unwise to go overboard on caliber power, and quite unnecessary...but you guys are free and 21 so its your choice and yours alone, be ready to pay the piper down the line...Its easy to brush this advise off now, but you will regreat that decision down the line.

Ray,
elmer is turning over in MY grave!!!

one doesn't need to shoot the big bores as much as those little bitty, smaller than a dime, rounds...

and my youngin.. he wont go to the range unless it's with his 58 or his 458 in an 8.25# gun

jeffe

That sounds like some advice Dad gave me when I was about sixteen in regards to Friday Nights, suds and wild gals It's a real PITA when you get older and one day it sinks in the old man was right !

Have read two articles of converting Browning BAR to 416 Taylor. You could do the same with a Browning BLR 81. Maybe just rebarrel a 7mm or 300 Win to .458, reinforce the wrist and get a bigger, softer pad. The magazines should work. They'd work for sure if you rebarrel a .450 Marlin. You can't just rechamber because of the belt and the locking recess' machined into the barrel.

HI,

MR. Atkinson, I thought you may have had one, I E-mailed Z-hat custom on a few questions and I will see what they say. I wish I was 21, alittle older than that.I do like your idea also about the 9.3x62, I think the case they custom for there 375 or other rounds is based on a 30-06.I think all there cals are based on the 30-o6, and the larger 338,375,411, the cases are larger for around 9% more powder.I do not know if they could even use the 9.3x62?,but I like that idea,Kev

HI,

MR. Atkinson, I just saw on they site something, and I thought you might like this. They sell custom ammo for all there cals, well they sell a 250 grain North Fork load for there 375 Hawk,now I know you know about them, how is the NF 250 grain 375 Kev

Kev, where are you getting brass for your 50-110 or are you forming your own ?

HI,

CHUCKWAGON, right from starlne brass, they make 50-110 and it is very strong,good stuff.Kev