Dan,

I thought bout using the shotgun actions, but don't want to go that route. I would much prefer to build something along the lines of the M1886 or M1895, in either case a box magazine is a requirement. In reviewing these actions design parameters, there are significant machining challenges that my partner and I will need to over come. I am confident that we can overcome them though. By the way, ain't no f...ing way I am shooting a curved buttstock on this thing. I am going to use a straight butt! With regard to reliability, you want to volunteer to be a test shoot 'dummy'? I will fit a nice recoil pad at a LOP of 14.5".

Chuckwagon, I do not share you pessimistic very of feeding reliability. I am confident we can get this project to feed very well, and with utmost reliability. I don't think we will blow ourselves up either. The initial prototype will be made of cold rolled, and therefore not strong enough for firing loads (unless Clark is right and 'dead' soft steel is okay), but it will work very well for establishing the necessary machining procedures and working out feeding bugs!

I estimate the weight to fall in the 12 to 13 pound bracket at this time, which is still a tad light for a 577 NE 3". Of course as I get the design finalized I will have a better idea of the real weight.


Kev,
Sorry to keep you awake! This project will probably take at least a year to get "right" so don't expect anything tomorrow. This isn't going to be like the 4 bore test barrel rig. That is a 3 to 5 day job, and very straight forward.

Scott

Ray, that is done, the 375 Hawk. It will do what you are asking for.

My approach is simply to use an existing, well documented, and phenomenal killer of DG. Namely, the 577 Nitro Express!

Now only the "reliability issue" should remain. With regard to that issue, I simply will challenge someone to so me the lack of reliability. If they cannot, then they must pay for the ammunition they shot, if they can prove it, the ammo is on me! We will shooting the real deal too, 750grains at 2050 fps. None of those wimpy "tropical" loads at 1900 - 1950 fps, which so many double rifles were actually regulated for (and many still are!).

Scott

I had know idea that section density was one of the requirements of a Dangerous Game rifle and I really don't care as I was only saying a 300 grain .458 bullet traveling along at 2600 fps with the energy of 4500+ ft lbs of energy out of a 24 or 26 inch barrel is impressive at the least out of a levergun.

As I said before there are better choices out there for Dangerous critters than the 45-70,but many don't realize the potential it has in a longer barrel as most are 22 inch or even the Guide Gun at 18.5 inches and there aren't hardly any good 300 grain bullets around for them that can reach that velocity.

Just my opinion.Jayco.

HI,


Scott, I thought it would be around 11-12 pounds, as my 50-110 is about 9.75,but please keep us up to date on this.I think the big lever makers really drop the ball on this. I know there would be a big market for these big bore levers,keep up the good work,Kev

Kev,

I am not overly familiar with the M1886. I have a good working knowledge of the M94 and M95. Anyway, I want to know what, in your opinion, the shortcomings are of the M1886? Specifically with regard to lock-up, simplicity of the lever mechanism (this is a goal of mine to make a very simple lever system), and effectiveness of etractor & ejection. Well, and anything else you feel worthy of mention. If you don't want to risk getting flamed for your comments, send me a PM.

Thanks,
Scott

I think Ray is correct as far as he went. My objection is to lever actions as dangerous game rifles, regardless of caliber. They aren't designed for that much recoil, at least not for me. I also don't think they can ever match the durability or extraction capabilities of a good bolt action.

Buffalo Bore is loading a 450 Grain 50 Alaskan at 2100 FPS and 4,406 ft lbs. Now stuff that in yer skirt 500 grains ! I am not advocating the minimum but 500 grains is full of SHEEP DIP if he is saying nothing less than a 500 NE is adequite. I think that is simply a issue of common sense. If you guys can get a .577 NE to load and function properly and reliably I would indeed be impressed. In the meantime I remain doubtfull. I believe that once a load meets the legal requirements the debate is over. From their it's just a matter of who has enough brass and can shoot well enough under pressure to get the job done.

With the exception of better powder and bullets there has been little done today that wasn't done yesterday practically as well or in some cases better. The absence of a great line of DG lever guns from the heyday of the lever gun speaks volumes about its practicality today for the same purpose.

Mike-I agree,but the recoil on that load in a 8 pound rifle is only 43 and that isn't that bad.The leverguns are not the best choice for a dangerous game gun but they sure have came along way from the old loadings.Now if we could just get some premium 300 grain bullets to withstand that velocity and impact in the 45-70 like Swift-Woodleigh or a few others,it would be a rifle and load to deal with most game around.

Just my opinion.Jayco.

HI,


Scott,I have been told by my smith, MR. Clay and you could also talk to MR. Ricks here who has also done 50 cals in a lever. They have used 86 or 71 as the action on these levers are very stong and have been use for some very high pressure rounds,300 win mag, also the other big problem has been the length of the action for these longer and bigger rounds.
Now the post that MR. MIKELRAVY place. Here is where you or I are going to get am arguement more than caliber, as the cal problem is really solved. The 50-110 beats the requirements,and when you come out with a lever in a 577NE, and there will be others doing the same thing, caliber can no longer be an agruement. What they are going to say is what MR.MIKELRAVY posted,taking the arugement about levers in another direction.
"My objection is to lever actions as dangerous game rifles, regardless of caliber. They aren't designed for that much recoil, at least not for me. I also don't think they can ever match the durability or extraction capabilities of a good bolt action."

I would disagree with the durability, and recoil is heavy with levers, but a strong action and larger like the one you are talking about, no problem, my 50-110 with a 525 grain at 2200 fps over 1,000 rounds action if fine.If you can come out with some kind of control feed and something like a claw extraction , its over,I am no smith and I am sure you know a hell of alot more than I do about this. This is where it will go next, well the 577NE hell of a stopper, but the lever design, no control feed no claw, understand I am not saying this, I am saying this is what you would hear after you come out with the 577NE Lever.And I am not trying to say anything negative about MR.MIKELRAVY, in fact I am thanking him because he is saying just what any DR hunters would say pertaining to the lever.
Now I am just pointing out what some DR hunters would say, I am not agreeing to this, but I think "SCOTT"you and I maybe on the same page,and if you can solve the feed and EXTRACTION, not that I need this, that would put a stop to any kind of farther agreement, BY THE WAY THIS IS THE LONGEST POST I HAVE VER DONE,Kev

Reliability and cycling will always be a issue in any lever action. It will simply never be as reliable as a double or a bolt. period. Those are the peramiters for a lever gun. When you remove them with CRF or magazines etc etc you no longer really have a true lever action IMO.
To the fellow that mentioned the 577 snider I see that Knoch still loads that round as well as the 577 Martini.

Chuck wagon,

Do you consider a Winchester M1895 to be a traditional lever action rifle? It feeds from a box magazine, and feeds much smoother than the M1894 or the Marlin's do. The other advantage is that it can feed spitzers (not that that is a big deal for a 577 NE).

Again, I challenge anyone of the reliability naysayes to put their money where their mouth is and fire this rifle, when completed, until it fails in either feeding or extraction! I am most confident that their shoulders, necks, or heads will fail many many times over before the rifle does.

Besides, double rifles can and do fail. Let them barrels get good and hot and they can get mighty sticky to open, particularly after you fire off a couple of rounds. Mauser style bolts, you can jam them, they love to porpoise the large diameter rounds, their extraction cams are at their limits with Rigby case diameters (particularly with high pressure loads) which makes one slap the bolt to open it.

Most, if not all, of the reliability statements I hear are coming from the ignorant armchair expert. Books are full of neat little death defying stories. CAUSE THAT IS WHAT SELLS! Shooting animals isn't all that exciting, really. Shooting an animal that almost ate you because your trusty rifle failed to fire, two, no make than three times, now that is much more interesting.

The only jam-o-matics I have ever used/owned were one Winchester M1300 12 gauge slug gun, and the M16/AR15. I can live with the M16/AR15 (you just need to clean it's mouth out regularly as it is a foul mouthed little bugger ), I shall not own another M1300 pump 12 gauge, as it cost me two deer one season!

Kev,
I know that there will be naysayers, there always are, this project is more about the challenge and the fun reward. Again, any information you can provide about any function issues with your M1886 are highly appreciated. Private message me if necessary, I will understand.

Scott

HI,

Scott, MR.CANUCK post states in short why is there no large following of levers in regards to PH.I think, I maybe wrong, but it would be in regards more to the design and not so much with cal. Now with 50 cal and other rounds that are coming out in levers the cal in levers would work, within there range.The big problem you or I are going to hear is design, claw, control feed.Here I believe there is a point to be made,if there could be some kind of improvement with regards to this and larger cals, I think you would see more use of them.I have had a few times the round not chambering when I have work the lever and after a few more times, strongly working the lever it worked,so I am just trying to point out a few designs that may help improve this problem,now after that if someone does not like them that would be a personal choice.I believe any design, whether action on a rifle,handgun or even a car can always be improved on, the box feed does help with of SP, as long box length is long enough for different lengths on bullets. Kev

If you have never owned a 1895 or others that would occasionaly jam I rather doubt you have owned very many lever guns. It happens. As far as the barrels getting hot on a double that is really a moot point in a hunting application unless you are really a piss poor shot. The simple fact is that lever guns are more prone to mechanical failure than others.
Why dont you save all the chest beating until a time that you have something more to put on the table besides a bunch of hot air. A 577 Lever gun LMFAO

PHs have bought a lot of Winchesters and other big name US guns. What's the difference in availablity if they really wanted a US lever gun vs a US bolt gun?

Mr Canuck was saying that a 50 AK would need to be readily available to PH's in order to be able to name several that use them.

I think you are partialy right in that the lever gun poses reliability problems but it also presents poor choices in adequite calibers.

Their is no standard availability of the 50 Alaskan from Winchester or any one else. Ammo needs to be available as well. Theese are all custom conversions.

I can not see the relevance other than 500 grains got his drawers in a bunch when he realized the foolishness of stating that only a 500 NE and up is satisfactory. I do not think we would have any difficulty naming multiple PH's who have used less than a 500 NE.

No guide is going to spend more money to import a weapon that is less reliable, has limited ammo availability and cost more than his local options.

HI,

CHUCKWAGON, I agree 100% about ammo, if you have a custom lever like me, there is NO on the shelf ammo, none, so to with 50AK.Also about no available 50AK, true no lever company makes anything like that and I think they really drop the ball on that.And as much as I am a lever lover, I think there is a reliability issue that could be improved,overall I think a CRF bolt to be more reliable. I think some smart person could solve this in a lever.I will use my 50-110 when I get to africa on a Buff hunt,but I am sure going to be positive it works each and every time.Well that is my story and I am sticking to it. Kev

I got no problem with someone making an intentional calculation as to trying DG with less than optimal calibers or guns (just like bow hunting or single shots) but it is not I you have to convince but your PH. Make sure he is willing to participate in your plan and have a back-up gun in case he isn't available when you land in Africa because his replacement may be "disinclined to acquiesce".

Hopefully you will post some pics of that buff. I agree with you 100 % but heck if we tune them all up where will be the fun in that ? Lever guns present a special challenge just like archery to some degree. I love mine and I think the 50-110 knocks the sox off any 45-70 in pure cool factor alone

as someone's whos loaded and shot the 577, in a ~14# gun, I am telling you, it's no picnic...

the MAX limit we've gotten on a 450 alaskan is WAY under 3".. in fact, my pal has to turn a couple grains off the 400gr barnes solid to get them to feed.


a 577 3" NE in a levergun?

bladderdash

not even the giant m71 could hold such a beast... Even the browning BLR (it's still a lever gun, for all that's it's actually a bolt gun with a lever) that can take the 300 winmag has a very limited max oal.

Perhaps a fella could study the m71, the 99, and the blr, for a gun designed to handle bolt thrust..., rather than a turtyturty that can manage to keep the action closed, and has a LITTLE issue with bolt thrust/sprung actions.

ah, well... someone has to try it...... I think a person could complete it, but a troll... well.....

I am STILL waiting for toad/axhole/scat to produce the DGR 458 win mag and 22 LR DGR that they boasted they'ld make before they ever came back

jeffe

For the record 500grains did not specify the 577NE exactly, as I recall. I figured Dan would have no issue with this cartridge, with regard to be adequate for DG, so I specified it.

Chuckwagon, with all due respect, I strongly suspect that I have considerably more experience with a Winchester M1895 than you. Probably more experience with a Winchester M1894 as well. The vast majority of misfeed issues with the lever actions I have used deals with the cartridge carrier. While the cartridge is being lifted from the tube to the axis of the rifle barrel it is uncontrolled. This problem has been addressed with the Winchester M1895, in which the magazine lips control the cartridge until it is well into the rifle's chamber. This is the same method of cartridge control used on all modern magazine fed semi auto and full auto rifles, as well as the push feed bolt actions. It works very well, to be totally honest.

Kev, your statements about "control round feeding" intrigue me. I agree it would be interesting to design in a controlling extractor if possible. I have already decided that an in-line box magazine is a must, as is a fixed blade ejector, so a claw extractor which engages the rim of the case upon leaving the magazine is a natural progression.


Jeffeosso, where have you been. I posted pics of the 22 DGR a few months ago!!! It is a Winchester M1904. Relined, reblued, etc.

Scott

I have never been to Africa, but, I know several people who have lived and hunted there, extensively; one is a professional hunter, born in Kenya, who now lives in Vancouver, B.C.

I don't know what "dangerous game" is being refered to, but, I spent many years working alone in Grizzly country and supervising large forestry crews there, I have some knowledge of soft-skinned, dangerous animals.

I do not know ONE person, among my African friends who uses a lever action rifle there, most of them use bolt action .375H&H rifles.

I will and do use two .45-70 lever guns, an 1886 SRC repro by Browning and a '70s vintage Marlin 1895 straight grip for protection in Grizzly country. These rifles have recoil pads, Ashley sights and are loaded with Swift A-Frame bullets at 1800-1900 fps m.v-depends on powder lot. They are sighted in for 50 yds as that is what they are good for, ultra-close range defense and my main reason for using these instead of my old Mod. 70s in .375 H&H is that they are much easier to pack in rugged terrain.

I have been at this for 40 yrs., the comments made by Ray Atkinson ring true to my ears while I find the idea of a 13 lb. lever-action to be as realistic as the "Jetsons" T.V. show.

I strongly suspect that you think more of your experience and ability than any one else here does. Good luck. Can't wait to see the infomercial Works just about the same as a push feed hey ? Wow, I know a LOT of PH's that think that's the best system.......NOT !

I'll tell ya what. Get back to me when your done smokin crack and blowin the smoke out yer back side. Good grief. Hey I'm building a space shuttle in my back yard equiped with 50mm LEVER GUN cannons that shoot DU rounds Wanna buy one. I bet you'll be able to shoot it till your shoulder falls off before it jams

That may be the case, and frankly I don't care!

If you wouldn't mind too terribly answering a question for me I would appreciate. What experience do you have with a Winchester M1895? You have commented that this action is prone to jamming/misfeeding/etc, so please elaborate on these statements. Also, please explain what the exact causes of the jams and misfeeds are, if known.

Scott

Why dont you tell me YOUR experience ? Better yet give me the model, serial number and caliber of every lever gun you own

HI,

Scott,on the win M1895 how many rounds do you think,in a 577NE would you get into the box mag?,And the cartridge carrier is just where I have seen some problem also,in fact I talk to Dave Clay alittle today and he said that in a m1895 would be a good idea , but would have to enlarge the action just like you said. Kev

Still can't find info on the caliber minimums for ANY African country?

And how is that list of PH's who carry levers coming? Still at zero?

Also, you got the verb tense wrong in your request to me.

Finally, I should point out that the United Nations does not recognize those booted from from MarlinTalk as refugees because Marlin is considered to be a cult religion.

Well lets see if you hang the magazine 3 or 4" below the stock and widen the receiver 4" you might get two rounds in the magazine. BOOOM ! LMAO some people will believe any thing. DUH

oh hey you got me. I have never heard of a PH using a lever gun. So what. I guess that means only blow hards like yourself can shoot DG with a "proper" rifle. Give me a break. I notice how you skimmed over the postYou obviously misread. ooops ! Now how about a list of PH's that use guns smaller than the 500 NE ? Let me guess, you've never even shot a 500 NE. As far as the legal limit you probably missed Rays post. I know you missed school the day they taught reading. I got a verb wrong LMAO booo hoooo call aunt jamima and slap me silly with a pan cake.

Finally I should mention that no one gives a rats ass about MT.

I have a question?If a .458 caliber 300 grain bullet of good design can hit 2600 fps with a muzzle energy of 4500 ft lbs of energy,then why would that not be considered a lethal round reguardless of what action launched it?

Just curious.Jayco.

Good question. I am not doubting you personaly but I would indeed have to see the chrony on that velocity. That is SMOKIN. I think honestly that 300 grains is a titch light for the topic here. I think you REALLLY have to tweak a 45-70 to be legal and then I am very skeptikal. Most ammo manufactures use the longest barrel possible to bolster their numbers. So when theese loads are used in a guide gun the velocity goes down and not up when used on a longer barrel.

This was only a test on the 450 Marlin done with a 24 inch test barrel and the 300 grain Nosler at 2488 fps and 40,600 PSI with 4124 ft lbs of energy.With the SAAMI being 43,500 PSI and the action can handle way more.To gain 112 fps would not put it in the danger zone when it is under to start with.Done by Rick Jaimeson for Shooting Times.

I am not saying the 300 Nosler is the bullet to use beeing constructed for 45-70 velocities but one can order Hawk bullets with the jacket thickness of your choice.Maybe a .050 or a .065 jacket would make it a stopper?

Just my thoughts.Jayco.

I wouldn't be the best judge of that. I would personaly want at least a 400 grain slug and ideally more. That in my view puts the 45-70 out of the picture for me. As much as I like the old gal I think the 50 AK is already just squeekin by for ballistic purposes on DG. I still would not choose a lever gun for that. Now if you want to talk Bison I think a 45-70 or a 45-90 is a must have. I know their are certainly other calibers that will do the job quicker and better but none of them will have that historical link to the American west.

Well thats one way to avoid answering when you get caught being full of shit