quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
1. CEB#13.

quote:

Originally posted by Arminius:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
1. CEB#13.

What does this mean?

And how about the options in factory loaded ammo????

thx, Hermann

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
I use 300gr. Barnes solids in my .375 H & H. They have the exact same impact point as the 300gr. Barnes TSX that I use. Have shot Buff and Warthog with this bullet with good results. PH said shoot that Warthog over there so the boys in camp will have some fresh meat, did so, DRT, one small hole. Camp staff loved it.
Larry Sellers
SCI Life Mmember

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
When getting down to a bullet circumference of .375 you end up having a problem with solid bullets bending (Nosler)or breaking in half (TB Sledgehammer) when heavy bones are encountered. You don't really need the added penetration of FN solids for buff. If you do feel that need for max penetration and factory ammo, I would go with the Norma 350 grain Woodleigh first and the Hornady semi-fn solid second. Either will work just fine.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
When getting down to a bullet circumference of .375 you end up having a problem with solid bullets bending (Nosler)or breaking in half (TB Sledgehammer) when heavy bones are encountered. You don't really need the added penetration of FN solids for buff. If you do feel that need for max penetration and factory ammo, I would go with the Norma 350 grain Woodleigh first and the Hornady semi-fn solid second. Either will work just fine.

465H&H

I absolutely do not understand this logic! If you are using a solid, you are using it for the increased penetration it provides over that of an expanding bullet. Therefore, if you are seeking penetration instead of trauma, wouldn't you seek the bullet that provides the MOST penetration? Penetration being the very thing you are seeking in the first place?



To the original question:

1) CEB BBW#13
2) North Fork
3) Barnes Banded FN - but these are currently out of production in .375 due to the BATFE
4) Woodleigh Hydro

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
out of curiosity, what were the solids available in say the 1950s through70s period?

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
When getting down to a bullet circumference of .375 you end up having a problem with solid bullets bending (Nosler)or breaking in half (TB Sledgehammer) when heavy bones are encountered. You don't really need the added penetration of FN solids for buff . If you do feel that need for max penetration and factory ammo, I would go with the Norma 350 grain Woodleigh first and the Hornady semi-fn solid second. Either will work just fine.

465H&H

quote:

Not picking on anyone, or any particular bullet here, but I have heard this term before;

"Over Penetration"

I find this term rather interesting and to me somewhat of an enigma.............

I have a hard time, figuring out how one can have "Over Penetration", which would lead to meaning, or denoting a negative term, which is where I get lost on this term? Something like "Over Gunned"? How is it possible to be "Over Gunned" anymore than one can have "Over Penetration"?

Obvious to me, if there is such a thing as "Over Penetration" there must be the opposite end of the spectrum as well...... "Under Penetration"... We can't have it both ways, there must be an opposite, a positive to the negative..... An Evil, for every good..........

Now we as shooters, hunters, we know that "Under Penetration" the direct opposite of "Over Penetration" is a "Negative".... In the terms in which we live, "Under Penetration" has to be a negative, and in normal terms, a Failure in which to penetrate enough to accomplish the mission.

If in fact, "Under Penetration", is a failure, then "Over Penetration" therefore must be a "Success", or a positive.

As with "Under Gunned", this is a negative as well, so being "Over Gunned" must be a positive, or a success...................... Think about it.

Of course, a real and proper designed bullet is going to penetrate far beyond what is required under normal circumstances, as you may very well request this same bullet to do extraordinary jobs where deep, and straight line penetration is absolutely required of it... Example, a south bound shot on a north bound large animal..............

Any and ALL bullets in one scenario or the other may "Over Penetrate" or "Under Penetrate", depending on what YOU THE SHOOTER asks of the bullet in question. It is NOT POSSIBLE or even within the realm of possibility to have the exact amount of penetration, just enough, in every scenario, that is beyond reason.

So why even use the term "Over Penetration" or "Over Gunned", you can never have too much of either?

Oh please, do not come back to me with the ridiculous scenario of having to PASS UP a 50 inch buffalo or a 250 lb elephant because there is another animal behind it and you may loose your shot at it! So your solution would be to use a bullet that might "Under Penetrate", remember, a negative... Possible failure? Honestly, if that trophy is that important to one, shoot with the Superior Penetrating Bullet and kill BOTH ANIMALS...... Or simply do as I have for all my hunting and shooting career, with any and ALL BULLETS, and wait another 15 seconds............. Either of these two options is far far better than using a PISS POOR UNDER PENETRATING BULLET............

To me, there is no such thing, and no such term as "Over Penetration", or "Over Gunned"............

Thank you

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Killartist:
Doc M, I steered him to the source, but he did not want to spend the time reading (and learning). You can lead a horse to water, butttttttttt

quote:

From past discussions I know that you have never used a really good RN solid on buff or elephant

quote:

I believe in using the best bullet that will maximize my chances of cleanly taking my targeted animal in the most efficient way possible.

quote:

The following meet the "Reliability Challenge"......

CEB BBW#13
North Fork
Barnes FN Banded
Woodleigh Hydro

quote:

While I totally agree that FN solids of good design maximize straight line penetration, but even they have been known to deflect and tumble on occasion. You can't count 100 % of the time on any bullet to not tumble.

quote:

If you shove more powder behind a bullet,
of course you are going to get higher velocity !

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
When getting down to a bullet circumference of .375 you end up having a problem with solid bullets bending (Nosler)or breaking in half (TB Sledgehammer) when heavy bones are encountered. You don't really need the added penetration of FN solids for buff. If you do feel that need for max penetration and factory ammo, I would go with the Norma 350 grain Woodleigh first and the Hornady semi-fn solid second. Either will work just fine.

465H&H

I absolutely do not understand this logic! If you are using a solid, you are using it for the increased penetration it provides over that of an expanding bullet. Therefore, if you are seeking penetration instead of trauma, wouldn't you seek the bullet that provides the MOST penetration? Penetration being the very thing you are seeking in the first place?



To the original question:

1) CEB BBW#13
2) North Fork
3) Barnes Banded FN - but these are currently out of production in .375 due to the BATFE
4) Woodleigh Hydro

Hi Todd!

Solids penetrate deeper than soft nose bullets because the tissues and bones provide less resistance to them than soft nose bullets. Less resistance means less tissue destruction. If a solid bullet will penetrate, hit the vitals and then exit the opposite side of the elephant, go on and penetrate one or more trees before stopping, that is more penetration than you need for the job at hand. It makes more sense to me to increase that bullets resistance to the point that it will reach the opposite side and stay under the skin. In the mean time causing much more internal damage to the animal.

Walt, Really? I mean ... REALLY? Come on man. We all know that soft's create more resistance and therefore more damage to animal tissue. You state that to me as if you think it's beyond my knowledge base. But lets stick with the discussion at hand. My post was a response directly to your comment that a hunter doesn't need "the added penetration of FN solids for buff" and you further suggest the use of a "Hornady semi-FN solid". So your comment was not about "not using a solid" but rather which solid , which was the focus of my comment. That focus again being that IF you have decided to use a solid, you have done so seeking penetration over maximum tissue damage! If you are seeking penetration over explosive tissue damage caused by the added resistance from the use of a soft nose bullet, why not go for the solid design that provides the absolute most penetration? That's the part of your statement that doesn't make sense. And honestly, you and I have had this discussion many many times prior. To the point of "being more penetration than you need", I would say that highly depends on the situation at hand. Obviously it takes less penetration to exit a cow elephant's head on a side brain shot than it does to put a solid into the ass end of a quickly disappearing elephant. Certainly in that case, the actual target is the spine or ball joint in order to disable the animal's ability to run effectively. However, using the CEB BBW#13 on an ele cow last year, frontal brain shot that went a little high, we recovered that bullet just in front of the base of the tail!! It penetrated the entire elephant front to back. I submit that with penetration like that, it is possible to not only bust the structural support on that retreating ele, but actually reach the vitals as well. Here is a picture of that bullet's recovery! A Flat Nosed CEB #13 750gr from my 577NE.I know I'm talking ele now, but the same applies to buff. I do believe there are times when a solid is needed, i.e. going away follow up shots.

The recovered bullet that traveled the entire length of the ele's body:



The actual location where the bullet came to rest after a frontal brain shot:



Sort of like saying that the Ferrari is a better car than the Lambroghini, because it will do 180 MPH while the Lambro will only do 165 MPH. Especially since there isn't any place that you can legally drive that fast anyway.

Wanna bet? I just happen to be picking up my new sports car tomorrow. Well, it's actually a new "used" car! Can't afford the new ones! I've already scheduled time on the local track about 25 miles from my home. I intend to air it out proper once I get a bit more familiar with it. (Not a Ferrari or Lamborghini either )

A second reason is that concerns about over penetration in a herd situation are real and can restrict the number of shots and animals that are available to you.

Yep, shooting into herds is not something I'm comfortable doing even with a soft nosed bullet. I prefer to hunt Dugga Boys instead of herd bulls when talking buffalo, and I don't shoot elephant when there are others behind my intended target in a likely position to get hit. In other words, I don't rely on a bullet's performance or "non-performance" to determine when to shoot into a group of animals. I only shoot when there is a better than reasonable expectation of not hitting an additional animal. Accidents happen, but I do what I can to avoid them.

I always want my bullets to exit. I never want to find it under the skin. I like exit holes. I also understand that opinion is about 50/50 among experienced hunters. But it's one of the reasons I like the TSX or CEB Non-Cons for expanding bullets instead of A-Frames.

Lastly, he was asking for factory ammo recommendations. I don't believe any of the four bullets you mentioned are currently available in factory ammo. Esp ammo that would be available in Europe. Please correct me if I am wrong. 465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
In the USA, speak to http://monolithicmunitions.com/

In Europe, speak to http://www.t2ammo.com/

When you buy a Ferrari or Lamborghini, you not only get top speed (and can use it if you want to), you also get better brakes and better handling.

100% correct Gerard!

Isn't there a picture of that elephant cow where one can see the relative size of the animal? Shooting a frontal brain shot on a small cow is a little different from shooting the same shot on a 6 ton bull.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
When getting down to a bullet circumference of .375 you end up having a problem with solid bullets bending (Nosler)or breaking in half (TB Sledgehammer) when heavy bones are encountered. You don't really need the added penetration of FN solids for buff. If you do feel that need for max penetration and factory ammo, I would go with the Norma 350 grain Woodleigh first and the Hornady semi-fn solid second. Either will work just fine.

465H&H

I absolutely do not understand this logic! If you are using a solid, you are using it for the increased penetration it provides over that of an expanding bullet. Therefore, if you are seeking penetration instead of trauma, wouldn't you seek the bullet that provides the MOST penetration? Penetration being the very thing you are seeking in the first place?



To the original question:

1) CEB BBW#13
2) North Fork
3) Barnes Banded FN - but these are currently out of production in .375 due to the BATFE
4) Woodleigh Hydro

Hi Todd!

Solids penetrate deeper than soft nose bullets because the tissues and bones provide less resistance to them than soft nose bullets. Less resistance means less tissue destruction. If a solid bullet will penetrate, hit the vitals and then exit the opposite side of the elephant, go on and penetrate one or more trees before stopping, that is more penetration than you need for the job at hand. It makes more sense to me to increase that bullets resistance to the point that it will reach the opposite side and stay under the skin. In the mean time causing much more internal damage to the animal.

Walt, Really? I mean ... REALLY? Come on man. We all know that soft's create more resistance and therefore more damage to animal tissue. You state that to me as if you think it's beyond my knowledge base. But lets stick with the discussion at hand. My post was a response directly to your comment that a hunter doesn't need "the added penetration of FN solids for buff" and you further suggest the use of a "Hornady semi-FN solid". So your comment was not about "not using a solid" but rather which solid , which was the focus of my comment. That focus again being that IF you have decided to use a solid, you have done so seeking penetration over maximum tissue damage! If you are seeking penetration over explosive tissue damage caused by the added resistance from the use of a soft nose bullet, why not go for the solid design that provides the absolute most penetration? That's the part of your statement that doesn't make sense. And honestly, you and I have had this discussion many many times prior. To the point of "being more penetration than you need", I would say that highly depends on the situation at hand. Obviously it takes less penetration to exit a cow elephant's head on a side brain shot than it does to put a solid into the ass end of a quickly disappearing elephant. Certainly in that case, the actual target is the spine or ball joint in order to disable the animal's ability to run effectively. However, using the CEB BBW#13 on an ele cow last year, frontal brain shot that went a little high, we recovered that bullet just in front of the base of the tail!! It penetrated the entire elephant front to back. I submit that with penetration like that, it is possible to not only bust the structural support on that retreating ele, but actually reach the vitals as well. Here is a picture of that bullet's recovery! A Flat Nosed CEB #13 750gr from my 577NE.I know I'm talking ele now, but the same applies to buff. I do believe there are times when a solid is needed, i.e. going away follow up shots.

The recovered bullet that traveled the entire length of the ele's body:



The actual location where the bullet came to rest after a frontal brain shot:



Sort of like saying that the Ferrari is a better car than the Lambroghini, because it will do 180 MPH while the Lambro will only do 165 MPH. Especially since there isn't any place that you can legally drive that fast anyway.

Wanna bet? I just happen to be picking up my new sports car tomorrow. Well, it's actually a new "used" car! Can't afford the new ones! I've already scheduled time on the local track about 25 miles from my home. I intend to air it out proper once I get a bit more familiar with it. (Not a Ferrari or Lamborghini either )

A second reason is that concerns about over penetration in a herd situation are real and can restrict the number of shots and animals that are available to you.

Yep, shooting into herds is not something I'm comfortable doing even with a soft nosed bullet. I prefer to hunt Dugga Boys instead of herd bulls when talking buffalo, and I don't shoot elephant when there are others behind my intended target in a likely position to get hit. In other words, I don't rely on a bullet's performance or "non-performance" to determine when to shoot into a group of animals. I only shoot when there is a better than reasonable expectation of not hitting an additional animal. Accidents happen, but I do what I can to avoid them.

I always want my bullets to exit. I never want to find it under the skin. I like exit holes. I also understand that opinion is about 50/50 among experienced hunters. But it's one of the reasons I like the TSX or CEB Non-Cons for expanding bullets instead of A-Frames.

Lastly, he was asking for factory ammo recommendations. I don't believe any of the four bullets you mentioned are currently available in factory ammo. Esp ammo that would be available in Europe. Please correct me if I am wrong. 465H&H

Maybe not in Europe, but I think others here have pointed out that CEB and North Fork are being factory loaded by some boutique companies.