i was referring to some above comments about softs.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Why do you want a solid that stops in the animal? Use a soft if you want that!

Sam,

I'm sure you don't mean to recommend using softs for body or head shots on elephant. For buff, I stopped using solids on them years ago.

465H&H

No 465H&H I'm saying if you want a bullet to stay in an animal shoot it with a soft. I don't believe in a limited penetration solids. I consider any expanding bullet as a soft. Elephants need all solids.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
No 465H&H I'm saying if you want a bullet to stay in an animal shoot it with a soft. I don't believe in a limited penetration solids. I consider any expanding bullet as a soft. Elephants need all solids.

Sam,

If you are more comfortable with a solid that penetrates and exits an elephant and are willing to put up with the shot limitations that provides you, I have no qualms with your decision. I just see it differently as stated above. One day we need to share some saki and discuss it.

465H&H

No solid can be counted on to stay in an elephant even those @#$% RN things can make it thru sometimes.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Why do you want a solid that stops in the animal? Use a soft if you want that!

You cannot count on any bullet, soft or solid, to not perforate the animal. In fact, I go from the point of view that, if the bullet is not capable of an exit hole on a broadside shot, regardless of whether it is a soft or a solid, the combination is insufficient for the specie.

All bullets deform, even the hardest solids. So, if a bullet is going to deform in an uncontrolled manner, that is not good. If deformation is accepted and managed, so that the deformation enhances the terminal qualities of the bullet, that is better.

Instead of the occasional catastrophic failure, I would rather have more dependable performance. What is the point of a bullet that completely penetrates the animal and three trees? I would rather have a bullet that gives a larger wound channel and only penetrates one tree after exiting the animal.

quote:

The 525 gr GSC flatpoint solid at 2490 fps broke the left shoulder and penetrated 8 ft of elephant to exit the other side. A follow up shot up the arse EXITED THE CHEST, collapsing the animal and achieving, I dont know,maybe 15 feet of penetration.

GSC FN solids have enough penetration in tissue and managed deformation obviously works. Dependable terminal performance is more important to GSC than pretty pictures and the old saw of "you could load it again".

I think the best solid in the Sporting .408 CheyTac/400 Underkill is going to be one from GSC if Gina ever gets settled in and turns the machines on in Michigan.
I am so happy Gerard gave her permission to resurrect that one.
Not as much demand for those as for the .375.

The only things worth knowing about solid bullet penetration are that less than enough is not good enough, that enough is good enough, and that too much is more than enough.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
The only things worth knowing about solid bullet penetration are that less than enough is not good enough, that enough is good enough, and that too much is more than enough.

Michael,

I think to put a finer point on your statement, one could also say, that less than enough is not good enough, that enough is good enough, and that too much is also good enough !

The salient point being that as long as it's "good enough" it works. Anything less doesn't work.

That's why I don't buy the argument that one can have too much penetration with a solid when the decision has been made to seek penetration by using a solid in the first place. I want that bullet to exit every single time.

In fact, I want my expanding bullets to exit as well. I'd never count on a bullet stopping in an animal. Even the most frangible bullet can perform as an anomaly and penetrate completely on occasion. Should that happen with another animal standing behind the target, it's time to get out the checkbook and a great big pen!!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
No solid can be counted on to stay in an elephant even those @#$% RN things can make it thru sometimes.

Hahahaha!

THAT was a good one!

:-)

Hermann

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
No solid can be counted on to stay in an elephant even those @#$% RN things can make it thru sometimes.

That is a very true statement but there is a big difference between sometimes and all the time!

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
No solid can be counted on to stay in an elephant even those @#$% RN things can make it thru sometimes.

That is a very true statement but there is a big difference between sometimes and all the time!

465H&H

To prevent hitting game behind that which you're intending to shoot?

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
No solid can be counted on to stay in an elephant even those @#$% RN things can make it thru sometimes.

That is a very true statement but there is a big difference between sometimes and all the time!

465H&H

To prevent hitting game behind that which you're intending to shoot?

Doc,

Maybe I am overly concerned about over penetration but it stems from having shot a large tuskless cow elephant behind the shoulder on the top of the crease and the bullet exiting the off side and hitting an unseen young bull killing it. That was with a Hornady .458 500 grain DGS. None of us saw the bull aligned behind the cow including me, the PH, two trackers and a game scout. I can assure you that the PH in question and myself are extremely careful about shot through's.

465H&H

465 H&H, had some good advise and I agree with him the 375 is hard on solids, but its not the caliber its the velocity...Both the 375 and 9.3s should be slowed down to 2200 to 2400 FPS and the problem no longer exist and penetration is awesome..

My favorite solid is the GSC flat nose 300 gr. solid, and it fact GSC flat nose solids are my favorite in all my big bores..

I also like the 350 gr. Woodleigh 375 solid at about 2300 FPS.

I also believe we are discussing an old problem that pretty much no longer exists but seems to hang on so fireside conversations don't die out!

Most of todays solids do not fail like the solids of yesteryear, the bullet makers have made great strides. Woodleigh, GSC, NorthFork,
Barnes are pretty much fail proof when you take rumor out of the conversation.

Although I have never shot one, that new kid on the block CEB just has to be a top notch solid

I also am a beliver in using the heaviest bullet you can within reason in a solid. 300 or 350 in a a 375, 400 or 450 in a 40 caliber, and 500 in 45 caliber..and kicking them up several hundred FPS is counter productive.

I am not of the school that a bullet should expend all its energy inside and animal..I want two hole in every animal I shoot..I respect the oppositions view on this and perhaps it has "some" merit, but simply disagree. as to over penetration wounding another animal I'm sure such things can happen on rare ocassions but most probably from human error, but many other things can go wrong on a hunt. It just happens.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
No solid can be counted on to stay in an elephant even those @#$% RN things can make it thru sometimes.

That is a very true statement but there is a big difference between sometimes and all the time!

465H&H

To prevent hitting game behind that which you're intending to shoot?

Doc,

Maybe I am overly concerned about over penetration but it stems from having shot a large tuskless cow elephant behind the shoulder on the top of the crease and the bullet exiting the off side and hitting an unseen young bull killing it. That was with a Hornady .458 500 grain DGS. None of us saw the bull aligned behind the cow including me, the PH, two trackers and a game scout. I can assure you that the PH in question and myself are extremely careful about shot through's.

465H&H

Understandable.
Our life experiences definitely shape our perspectives.
Thanks for the explanation.

The bottom line is that one must never assume that any bullet will be incapable of shooting through. When one assumes that the bullet will shoot through and act accordingly, that is as much as what can be done.

If the bullet has a good reputation for linear penetration and can be relied upon to always give the same result, it makes life easier and widens the window of application.

Where matters become ugly is when a fragment or bullet exits at an unpredictable angle and hits something off to the side. This is something we recognized and addressed so that the frequency is down to an insignificant number.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
The bottom line is that one must never assume that any bullet will be incapable of shooting through. When one assumes that the bullet will shoot through and act accordingly, that is as much as what can be done.

If the bullet has a good reputation for linear penetration and can be relied upon to always give the same result, it makes life easier and widens the window of application.

Where matters become ugly is when a fragment or bullet exits at an unpredictable angle and hits something off to the side. This is something we recognized and addressed so that the frequency is down to an insignificant number.

Agree 100%!