It seems people have pretty strong opinions as to whther a belt is a good or a bad thing on a case. I don't fully understand the reasoning behind both sides of the argument. Can someone explain?

That belt on a cartridge is fine, as long as the chamber is cut precisely enough that the cartridge is supported on firing by contact between the case shoulder and the chamber. In other words, for all intents and purposes, the round is headspacing on the shoulder rather than the belt!

We all know, of course, that "belted cases headspace on the belt, not the shoulder", BUT although this is fine when brass is not being reloaded, just fired once and discarded.

However, a case that headspaces on the belt with a "generous" amount of slop on the front end between case shoulder and chamber wall expands to the point of stretching when fired. The stretching naturally thins the brass just in front of the case web. This first stretch begins the process of insipient head separation, which continues every time that case is resized and fired again. This effect is particularly bad when a person "full-length resized" the case, each time pushing the shoulder back to factory dimensions, from which it must stretch forward again every time it is fired.

Thus, belted cartridges often "lose their heads" a lot sooner than a case which is designed to headspace on the shoulder rather than a belt. The effect of this stretching on a belted case has the same result as firing hot loads in stretchy actions like the SMLE or rear-lockup lever actions, but the cause is somewhat different.

So, if you are a reloader, you are slightly better off, in general, using a case which headspaces on the shoulder rather than on a belt (or rim, for that matter). In other words, handloaders should, when at all possible, choose rimless, beltless cartridge designs for reloading purposes. This does not mean that belted or rimmed cases cannot be made to last quite well when handloaded. They can indeed. But more attention has to be paid to such things as sizing die adjustment!

Do you like Blondes, Brunnettes, or Red heads ?

belts are fine, but some guys don't like them
no belt is fine, but some guys don't like them
flanged is fine, especially in a doubel rifle.

but these all are what they are.

no better, no worse, a decent gunsmith can make them all work, in the proper rifle

jeffe

I think this is one of those fad things that pop up from time to time, and really have no merit, one way or the other!

Everything Eldeguello says is absolutely true, but it isn't a problem with proper handloading. I can honestly say I've been shooting, and hand loading for both types for some 53 years, and I can tell you I have seen more head seperations in rimless cartridges than in belted rimless ones. In my experience the worst offender in this problem is a flanged case, with a standard rimless next, and with the belted coming in last for causeing head seperations.

The problem is illeminated with proper sizeing of the brass for reloading. Once fired factory ammo will, as Eldeguello states stretch, which all brass cases do. The full length re-sizeing pushes the shoulder bact to where it was when first fired, new. In any case, the brass is thinned just in front of the WEB of any case. This area simply happens to be just in front of the belt, and it gets the blame in the belted case. The problem is not the case design, but the dude cranking the loading press handle. Once the case has been fired the first time, then the sizeing should be only to replace the tension on the bullet in the neck, and only enough contact with the shoulder of the brass to make the rifle feed properly. The case has now been properly fire formed for your rifle, and there is no need to full length re-size. In fact the belted case is now headspaceing on both the shoulder, and the belt, giveing it more support than the rimless beltless case!
NOW! If you only shoot factory ammo, there is less of a problem than with handloading so buy what you want, and shoot what you want, but if you intend loading the ammo yourself, then load it properly, and you'll have no problem, with any type cartridge!

Here's the deal. A belt is not needed on any case except those without a shoulder such as 458 Win mag, or those with such a sloping shoulder such as 375 H&H. All others don't need one as they can headspace off the shoulder or rim. That's what all the new WSM's do. Years ago ammo companies wouldn't think of bringing out a new, so called magnum round, and design it without a belt. Thus the term, belted magnum.

We now know that magnums don't have to have belts, and some cases WITH belts are called magnum in name only, having been degraded from when they were designed by lawyers and SAMMI.

I own and shoot two vaults full of rifles that are 90% belted Magnums. They all are capable of shooting one hole groups when I do my part, as long as they do that I don't give a diddly dadburn what the case looks like. Good shooting.

Gee -I am just gonna hafta get rid of all those belted thousand yard contest winning cartridges. They just have to headspace off the shoulder or their just not accurate enough. especially in DGR's.-Rob

Rifles for the following belted cases I've owned:
240 Wby
257 Wby
264 Win Mag
7MM Rem Mag
7MM STW
300 Win Mag
300 H&H
338 Win Mag
375 H&H

Not once have I encountered a problem with them that I'd credit or blame on the belt. I really don't know what the fuss is.

For straight or nearly straight cases
can't beat a belt.My wildcats which I chambered
to not have a sloppy belt fit, fires many
reloads before case goes bad.Like 458 HE
with 350 gr Speers, 3000 fps,fired two cases
100 times each ..Ed.

But what about the huge debate concerning feeding of belted cases versus non-belted cases? I understood that this debate was going to be submitted to the UN Security Council for a final decision before the upcoming small arms debate.

I set my belted cases up so they headspace on the shoulder. I have no problem with separation. I can't remember a feed issue either. Do I think they are a waste on most cases. Yep. But, I'm not going to loose any sleep over it.

As a user of sized brass without a shoulder to headspace on initially, then fireformed, like the .416 Taylor, I'd say peace of mind is about the best advantange of belted cases. Once fireformed to the chamber, all is as it should be, the case fits the chamber and needs only neck resized and trimmed for life.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Gee -I am just gonna hafta get rid of all those belted thousand yard contest winning cartridges.

Now I don't think that's going to happen and you made the very best case for them.

Over the years I heard a lot of guys whimper about belted cases and their short comings. They were so anti belt I'm not sure how they keep their pants up. Oh those must be those suspender guys.

I've just purchased one of the Inovative Tech. dies that has a collet to size the belted mags just forward of the belt. Used it a couple of times but am hoping that this will help make the belted cases last longer. With me it is always the area just ahead of the belts that goes out of spec. Hopefully the new die will help this problem. Before procurring this die I could get maybe three firings out of my belted mag cases before it was back to making more cases. This was mostly on my 1000 yd. gun that is running a pretty hot load getting a 220 grain Matchking going right at 3000 fps.

Belts, bah! Humbug!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Belts are for holding up a mans pants, not headspacing his rifle.

Unless you are turning your brass one piece at a time from barstock, AND you know how to use a lathe preciesely; there are manufacturing tolerances. Case in point: the CZ550 is the best mass-produced DGR out there. Because of manufacturing tolerance and $$$-factor it still needs tuned up. Cartridge brass is the same way, if not we wouldn't need to trim it before loading. Redding sells hundreds of magnum brass shellholder sets to deal with the tolerances. This post caused me to go get the dial calipers and some mag brass out of my shop. I am doing an article on the 7STW and the total history on it, ie the Mashburn Magnum, et al. Basically assessing it in light of the proper, unbelted case designs from Remington and Winchester. For a shot of history, I took the basic cases one might make it out of and am checking fireformed case capacity, etc. 300H&H, 300Wby, 8mmMag, and 375H&H VS factory 7STW from federal. Federal brass is as good as any, and I have 5 factory rounds here in my fat little fingers.
The oal varies from 3.508 to 3.519, and belt to rim oal varies from .213 to .220. That's actually pretty good,
but it's probably the best reason that belted magnum cases are not popular in double rifles. You can trim the cases once fire formed to the same oal, but there is not way to get the headspacing any better, except miking cases and segregating them That's what the long range benchrest shooters do, and why they are flocking to the RUM and WSSM brass in droves.

Put me down in favor un-belting DGR cartridges. It's why my 510 Kayser Express is based on 416 Rigby cylindrical brass instead of the cheaper 460 Weatherby brass.

regards,

Rich

If you're handloading, after the first fireing you make your own headspace or rather set your die to keep it tight. The belt no longer matters.

Have shot both, and they both work. Plenty of armchair theories and personal favortism, but IMHO they matter not whether present or not, and are needed in some instances.

Now that the allure of wildcats and proprietary rounds has worn off, I look for what bullet I want to shoot, how fast I want to shoot it, and what commonly available case and chambering will achieve that. Whether a belt is present or not is of no concern to me.

Lets see, I've got a 350 rem mag, feeds fine w/ belt and shoots great, 350 Rigby mag, feeds great w/o belt and shoots great, but good brass is hard to find or needs to be made, 458 Lott has been great from both examples I had, 500 Jeffrey, wished I'd gone 500 A-sq for easier to get ahold of brass.

Will likely be getting a 300 WSM, not because I think the beltless case is superior or that I have anything against the 300 win mag, but because I want a Kimber montanna short action.

My .224WeatherbyMag was super accurate with just factory ammo.In fact i didnt even bother reloading.
However I dont know why H*H didnt follow the simply wise MR.Brenneke9.3x64. exhisting proof at the time, that belt and overly long and overly tapered case was not required.
I do however have softspot for 300H*H and the belt effects not my affection for it.

My 9.3x64 and 300 H&H are both on pre 64 Win actions. The 300 is original and the 9.3 is a custom. I can't tell any difference at all in feeding. Both are slick as snot. Bob

First of all, I don't know why the factories produce rifles in belted cases with "generous" headspacing on the belts, but they do. I see the most recurring theme in this thread is that most of you think that after the first firing, the dies should be setup to size just as you would with a beltless case. I agree! BUT!!!, when I chamber a rifle for a belted case, I "lose" the NO-GO gauge. To me it is worthless except when checking a suspect factory chamber. I chamber the barrel using the GO gauge (.220") as a no-go gauge. If you use the NO-GO gauge (224"+), you automatically build in excessive headspace if you depend on the belt to properly hold the case position in the chamber. Using the GO gauge as no-go reduces the headspace but still allows all brands of factory cases to chamber freely without excessive headspace. I know this doesn't help anyone with a factory chamber but it will help those who are doing a chamber job for themselves. You don't have to take my word for it, just cut the chamber using the GO as no-go and check the feeding of cases in the chamber. You won't feel any snugness as the bolt closes but you won't get incipient head separations if you set the shoulder back when reloading.

My experience has been that belted cases even the .600OK feed just as well as non-belted cases. Belted cases will headspace just as well as non-belted ones and to be frank this has only a very minimal effect on accuracy even at 1000 yrds. Interestingly, most belted cases I've sectioned have thicker brass behind the belt and in the case head than non-belted brass and for rounds pushed to the max like 1000 yrd benchrest cartridges this is a pretty good thing IMHO. Personally, I have never found a rational reason other than the results of Gun-Mag Hype to dislike the belted cases. I wish there were more of them. Finally, the reason belted mags are not used more in doubles has nothing to to with the belt. It's the lack of a rim for absolute positive extraction and the need to keep the pressures in the 30-45KPSI range that limits their use in doubles. Another advantage of the belt is in recahambering. For example its trivial to rechamber a .458 Win to a .458 lott without effecting the guns headspace at all. All in all belts are a usefull feature with no real detriments IMHO. With that said, if it goes Boom I generally like it! .17 RLG to 12 GaFH ( No belt just a Rim!) -Rob

You buy the brass. Run it thrrough the resizing die to open the neck. Load it. Shoot it. Throw it or give it away. Works for belted and non-belted cases!

Here's a strange one. Friend got some of my .458 brass, necked it down to .408 and turned the belts off. ? maybe saves cutting the chamber for the belt ?
Anyway I'm going to have to keep my eye on him!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Unless you are turning your brass one piece at a time from barstock, AND you know how to use a lathe preciesely; there are manufacturing tolerances.

Rich - Partially true, but the part about turning your own cases from barstock is not.

I know you realize that and were just being a bit "over the top" to make a point, but as Master Rifleman pointed out shortly after your post, there IS another way.

I actually take his method one step further, and cut some of my belted magnum match chambers a bit UNDER the allowed go-gauge belt depth. With that done, I can take factory cases, chuck them in a collet, and reduce their belt thickness (from the front of the belt) to where they just fit snugly but freely into the chamber. Makes a nice, uniform, fit everywhere when the case is fired and the shoulder blown forward...as it ALWAYS will be in any SAAMI spec shouldered chamber when using factory brass.



For those guys who are vocal advocates of pooh-poohing the use of belted brass, a question...
Where did you get the illusion that unbelted rimless cases don't also blow forward and stretch the first time they are fired with factory cases in factory chambers?

SAAMI minimum chambers are intentionally longer and larger diameter than SAAMI maximum cases, so that all factory cases will fit in all factory chambers regardless of manufacturing tolerances. That difference in dimensions is eliminated by brass stretch (and thinning somewhere) on the first firing.

Same is true for both belted and beltless cases. After that, a person can either resize them back to factory dimensions and keep guaranteed easy chambering at the cost of reduced case life, or he/she can size only the necks and keep good case body fit and longer case life if a reloader.

But then, they MAY have to occasionally at least partially case-body re-size the brass for guaranteed easy chambering. Depends on the pressures they're operating at and how round their chamber is, among other things.


Anyway, before jumping into either camp wholus-bolus, it probably pays to remember the case shapes for which the belts were originally brought out by H&H...the .300 and .375's were both very tapered cases without sharp shoulders. While it is true that carefully cut chambers and carefully dimensioned ammunition would have likely performed just fine without the belt, in those days the firearms and ammunition industry was a different place than today. There was less standardization, less easy access to standardized gauges, perhaps even less appreciation of how much such things as temp, etc., affect the reading of gauges. So, it was necessary to do a creditable, safe job of matching ammo to chambers in a way which couldn't easily be dangerously screwed up for even first firings.. The belt worked fine for that, and still does.

quote:

Originally posted by bulldog563:
It seems people have pretty strong opinions as to whther a belt is a good or a bad thing on a case. I don't fully understand the reasoning behind both sides of the argument. Can someone explain?

I purchased a belted mag resizing die from http://www.larrywillis.com for my 300wm but since I refrain from loading to the max instead I load for accuracy and I haven't had any problems with my brass.

A little tid-bit for you non-belted 1000yrd benchrest shooter or wanna-be's. Most of us actually set our dies to set the shoulder back slightly, thus intentionally creating excess headspace. This sounds bad, but it actually is worse for accuracy to have the gun upset on the bags when you place a tight new round in the chamber. Guess what, no problemo with a belted case changing headspace and still chambering smoothly with the shoulder pushed back a bit. I usually sort my cases for .001 headspace and re-use them 5-7 times then discard them.When your competative in 1000yrd benchrest shooting every little issue shows up on the target. Belted cases are still winning some matches.-Rob

Blah, Blah, belted cases are still winning 1000yd matches....friends that shoot those long range matches tell me the WSM and RUM cases are really starting to show up in varied guises. Rob, flathead fords are still setting records at Bonneville...
Benchrest guys have this saying, "...short and fat is where it's at...". Case design is obsoleting the belt.
The only rifle cartridge I see a need for a belt are the 458 Lott and the 550 Magnum.

Rich