Anybody see any typo's/errors or strange twists in philosophy in the below shown
pages 373 and 375 of
BARNES Reloading Manual Number 4
(Just wanted to test my scanner)?:

If its in the history then I missed it! I do want to know who makes factory barnes loaded 416 Rigby ammo though. If it exists I have yet to see it. As for the data I shoot 350's so I cant compare...
I just bought this book too so I hope it doesn't have to many errors in it!

The errors that I see quickly
1- Barnes does not make a 410 grain bullet
2- The original 416 Rigby loading was a 410 grain at 2370 FPS for 5113 FPE.
3- Wasn't the magazine article illistration with Harry Shelby and his Mighty 416 Rigby before the 50s?


PoppaW, Federal produces factory loads with Barnes 400 TSX and Banded Solids and so does Superior Ammo

Rip ,nice scans, other than specific load data errors & the imr4831 loads seem to be in the same ball park as I once loaded, the only thing that raises a flag is describing the 416 Rigby as a bolt gun equivalent to the 450 3 1/4", I've not heard it said like that before. Failing that PASS.
Steve

The data is as Barnes shot it and recorded it, that is according to Barnes. I have already asked some time ago

quote:

2- The original 416 Rigby loading was a 410 grain at 2370 FPS for 5113 FPE.

Yeah, that is the way it started I believe. It's equivalent to a 400 gr. bullet going 2400 fps. It is also the equivalent of the 450 NE in muzzle energy.

The photo doesn't match the story, but not sure that matters.

I would be surprised if the BC is that close between the two bullets shown, but who knows.

If MAX means maximum pressure, I'm surprised the solids would generate that much higher velocity/powder charge that the softs, but not necessarily an error.

What do you see RIP?

I'm also interested to know who let Rambo, er Mark (Let Him Decide How He Will Die Today...) Sullivan write up the 577 NE. He describes a 7,000 buffalo bull. Would someone please confirm the existence of 7,000 lb Cape buffalo.

By all accounts nearly 2,000 lb buffalo are quite a handful when they want to be.

RIP, ju got some 'splainin to do!

I guess this just proves that all rifles are different. This loading data doesn't jive with my experience loading Barnes 400 Gr. Banded solids in my Ruger RSM. 105 Grs. of H-4831 only produced an avg. of 2295 FPS in my rifle with the Barnes solid, but did generate 2439 FPS with a 400 Gr. Hornady soft.

94 Grs. of IMR-4831 on the other hand generated 2442 FPS with the 400 Gr. Barnes solid.

First off I think the rate of twist is a little fast at 1:12, as I think most rifles are either 1:14(Ruger) or 1:16(CZ).

I would also think, and please correct me if I'm wrong as I have never loaded for the Rigby, that a long bullet like the TSX would have a COL of closer to the max of 3.750 than the listed 3.635.

Just yappin' from me:

The base diameter on the cartridge drawing should be closer to .589" instead of .5812". At least they got the rim diameter right, max about .590".

The TWIST on their 24" barrel is reported as 1:12", although they used a 1:14" on the .416 Weatherby data (25" barrel there).

My real puzzle:

The discrepancy in max loads for the copper TSX and the brass "banded" solid.

Will and Labman are yappin' good on that one.

105 grains of H4831 gave me 2450 to 2500 fps with numerous 400-grain softs and solids, about a half dozen different bullets, in a 1:14" TWIST 24" barrel.

105 grains of H4831 gave 2507 fps with the 380gr GSC FN.

Yes, rifles are different, and I do think that data from Barnes is very good. Just wondering why they loaded the TSX so light? Surely the solid load they show is to a higher pressure level than the TSX, or is it? Why?

The copper TSX is a bit longer than the brass solid and will cause reduced case capacity for the shown COL's, but is that all that is going on here?

Just for reference, I run 90.2gr of IMR 4350 and 400gr TSXs with Norma or Hornady brass & Fed 215 primers and I get in the 2430-2460 fps range. Works for Swifts & Hornadys as well. jorge

I don't believe that the pressure is higher for the solid, just the velocity. The Banded Solid allows for more powder without higher pressure

The brass solid has a lower coificent of fricion therefore it takes more powder to keep the same pressure and the higher volume of powder produces more velocity

quote:

Originally posted by DGR Shooter:
First off I think the rate of twist is a little fast at 1:12, as I think most rifles are either 1:14(Ruger) or 1:16(CZ).

I would also think, and please correct me if I'm wrong as I have never loaded for the Rigby, that a long bullet like the TSX would have a COL of closer to the max of 3.750 than the listed 3.635.

DGR Shooter,
That 12" twist caught my eye. Apparently a custom, was that a Pac-Nor?
I used that 1:12" twist on the last .416 I had built and would always choose it if I could on any .416.

As you said, and confirmed by my own measurement:
Factory Ruger: 1:14"
Factory CZ: 1:16.5"

The "proper .416 Rigby" throat is zero-free-bore. Just a leade for throat.

Rifles with the proper throat cannot be loaded to 3.750" COL with some bullets.

My second generation Ruger RSM has such a throat. I'll have to go see how long I can load that one with the TSX.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
I don't believe that the pressure is higher for the solid, just the velocity. The Banded Solid allows for more powder without higher pressure

Yes, the banded solid intrudes on case capacity less than the TSX when both are loaded to similar COL ... that does seem to be where we are headed with this yappin'.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Just for reference, I run 90.2gr of IMR 4350 and 400gr TSXs with Norma or Hornady brass & Fed 215 primers and I get in the 2430-2460 fps range. Works for Swifts & Hornadys as well. jorge

Jorge,
When are you going to wise up and switch to Hodgdon instead of IMR?
They both may be owned by the same corporation, but the powders are different.

4350 is for 350-grainers.
4831 is for 400-grainers

Barnes and many here like RL-22 for those 400-grainers.

Reckon the Barnes pressure limit was about 50,000 psi for all these loads?
I'll have to go see what CIP specifies for PTmax.
I wonder if Barnes has ever heard of C.I.P.?

The base dimension of .5891 according to SAAMI is taken on the body just forward of the case head extractor groove. The .5812 dimension is correct 1/2" up from the base of the case head

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Just for reference, I run 90.2gr of IMR 4350 and 400gr TSXs with Norma or Hornady brass & Fed 215 primers and I get in the 2430-2460 fps range. Works for Swifts & Hornadys as well. jorge

Jorge,
When are you going to wise up and switch to Hodgdon instead of IMR?
They both may be owned by the same corporation, but the powders are different.

4350 is for 350-grainers.
4831 is for 400-grainers

Barnes and many here like RL-22 for those 400-grainers.

Reckon the Barnes pressure limit was about 50,000 psi for all these loads?
I'll have to go see what CIP specifies for PTmax.
I wonder if Barnes has ever heard of C.I.P.?

Well did yo see the velocities I'm getting with IMR430 and with a lot less powder? Also it shoots everything, including 410 old Hornady solids into one jagged group. I've also tried H-4350, but that 90.2grain load is hard to beat, unless there's something I'm not seeing with switching. I've shot that load in temps from 35 deg to close to 100 with no problems and two buffalo! jorge

Just yanking your chain Jorge, either 4350 or 4831, don't much matter, H- or IMR-, it's all good.
Oops! Forgot to go look up the CIP pressure for the .416 Rigby ...

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
The base dimension of .5891 according to SAAMI is taken on the body just forward of the case head extractor groove. The .5812 dimension is correct 1/2" up from the base of the case head

Hey! That little arrow was not pointing at a spot 1/2" up from the base.

I calculated the dimension 1/2" up from the base based on C.I.P. max specs and the number is .5814". Close enough.

There is a bunch of taper in the 416 Rigby case body. Very little taper in a 404 Jeffery case body.

Max average pressures by C.I.P.:

416 Rigby: 3250 bar = 47,125 psi
450 Rigby: 4000 bar = 58,000 psi
404 Jeffery: 3650 bar = 52,925 psi
338 Lapua Magnum: 4700 bar = 68,150 psi

Obviously allowances were made for antique rifles in 416 Rigby.
Only modern rifles exist in 450 Rigby, so higher pressure allowed.
Lesser bolt thrust in 404 Jeffery allows higher pressures in antiques, even opened up M98's that were also used for the 416 Rigby?

And the heavy duty brass and modern steel and actions of .338 Lapua Mag. rifles allows extremely high pressures with C.I.P. blessing.

The .338 RUM is only approved to 4400 bar = 63,800 psi, another reason the .338 Lapua Mag. is the better .338.

Here is the 350-grain bullet page that is between the other two above in Barnes Number 4:



Again it seems Barnes is short changing the 350-grain TSX loads, and getting more powder into and higher velocity with their loads of brass solid of same bullet weight.

I guess Barnes is keeping pressures below 48Kpsi, but if we wanted to we could load as hot as the .416 Weatherby in modern rifles and Norma brass. I like 350-grainers at 2700 to 2750 fps and 400-grainers at 2450 to 2500 fps in a .416 Rigby. None of mine are antiques or built on an opened up M98.

If anybody wants to see those .416 Weatherby loads, buy the book. Pretty good reloading manual.

I knew that , but all kidding aside, that IMR 4350 load works great, at leat in my 24" barreled RSM. jorge

RIP,

Thanks for all the info I definately plan on getting around to building a .416 Rigby "someday", and there are a lot of good nuggets on this thread to be squirled (sp?) away for future reference

DGR Shooter,
Welcome and thank you.
Are you planning on using a 12" twist like Barnes did?
A 10" twist would be even better, then you could shoot the .416 Barrett bullets and GSC SP's at slower than 3250 fps with good accuracy at long range, and all the stubby hunting bullets as fast and accurately as you could possibly need.
That fast twist won't hurt penetration either.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
A 10" twist would be even better, then you could shoot the .416 Barrett bullets and GSC SP's at slower than 3250 fps with good accuracy at long range, and all the stubby hunting bullets as fast and accurately as you could possibly need.
That fast twist won't hurt penetration either.

I have a 1-10" twist on CZ550Mag in 416 Wby and it works just perfect with those long monometal bullets..

quote:

DGR Shooter,
Welcome and thank you.
Are you planning on using a 12" twist like Barnes did?
A 10" twist would be even better, then you could shoot the .416 Barrett bullets and GSC SP's at slower than 3250 fps with good accuracy at long range, and all the stubby hunting bullets as fast and accurately as you could possibly need.
That fast twist won't hurt penetration either.

RIP,

I had originally planned to go with a 1:14 twist, as I had heard that was better at stabilizing the TSX's(one of my favorite bullets) than the slower twist rates. However, after reading this thread, I think I will go with at least a 1:12 and will give some serious consideration to a 1:10. Are there any disadvantages at all with these faster twist rates?

I have just recently commissioned a 500 A-Square, so the Rigby is still a couple of years down the road at this point. But, like I said earlier, it's never too early to be planning

DGR Shooter,
If I ever build another .416 it is going to have a 10" twist.

Both my .404 Jeffery rifles have a 10" twist, one custom stainless, one CZ chromoly, both by McGowen.

Member buffalo seems to have proven the worthiness of a 1:10" .416 barrel. It makes a lot of sense for monometal bullets, and would be a must to use the .416 Barrett bullet in a .416 Rigby or .416 Weatherby:

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
I have a 1-10" twist on CZ550Mag in 416 Wby and it works just perfect with those long monometal bullets..

buffalo,
You have the perfect rig for a walkabout .416 all-purpose rifle.
Excuse me while I go take a cold shower ...

A .416 Barrett has a 1:12" twist standard and moves the 400-grain (actually 395-grain) bullet at 3250 fps. This bullet is over 2 inches long and spins at 3250 rps or 195,000 rpm.

Shooting the same bullet, a .416 Weatherby with 1:10" twist barrel will give the same revolutions per second with 2708 fps MV: 3250 rps or 195,000 rps.

Time for another cold shower ...

.581x is flat wrong and a chamber so cut, even assuming +003 for clearance, wouldn't chamber a saami or cip spec round.

it was originally a .410 bulet.. we've all seen the letter from rigby to kynock ... saying the FACTS wrong is alwasy wrong... yes, 2+2=4,but when you mean 3+1=4, then it is only the same total, NOT the same equation (no, really, don't bother arguing will) .. that's as SILLY as tryign to tell a cop "i can drive faster in this little bitty light weight car as my total ENERGY is the same as driving a truck slower"


the 450 reference is in regards to the 458 winmag, some bright editor got their facts mixed up ...


Barnes shuold be ashamed and issue an errata on this page, alone... gunwriters are ALWAYS getting their GUN facts wrong... why is that?

jeffeosso,
That .581x is indeed right if it is 1/2" up from the bottom of the cartridge.

The .416 Rigby has a lot of case body taper, same as the .338 Lapua Mag., which makes it slick in feeding, whether in military applications or DGR.

Max at rim is .590x".
Max head forward of extractor groove is .589x".
Max case body 1/2" forward of bottom of cartridge is .581x".

The reference to the 450 is just that the .416 Rigby was equal to or better than that standard killer. Has little to do with the caliber, but that is indeed arguable.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
jeffeosso,
That .581x is indeed right if it is 1/2" up from the bottom of the cartridge.

The .416 Rigby has a lot of case body taper, same as the .338 Lapua Mag., which makes it slick in feeding, whether in military applications or DGR.

Max at rim is .590x".
Max head forward of extractor groove is .589x".
Max case body 1/2" forward of bottom of cartridge is .581x".

The reference to the 450 is just that the .416 Rigby was equal to or better than that standard killer. Has little to do with the caliber, but that is indeed arguable.

RIP, is spot on as usual..

Ron,
Sure, if they pick an arbitrary spot to try and get right..

No, wait.. thats NOT WHERE CASES ARE MEASURED... LOL...

That's like saying a 375HH case is .502, if you meassure something like 1/2" up the case.

Its a bogus measurement..
Just like telling the cop "oh, i was really doing 55" ... well, at least 55

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Ron,
Sure, if they pick an arbitrary spot to try and get right..

No, wait.. thats NOT WHERE CASES ARE MEASURED... LOL...

That's like saying a 375HH case is .502, if you meassure something like 1/2" up the case.

Its a bogus measurement..
Just like telling the cop "oh, i was really doing 55" ... well, at least 55

Apparently SAAMI doesn't agree with you, as this picture of an Acctual SAAMI drawing illistrates