I own a custom .404 Jeffery built on a Dakota Safari action. The gun came with, and feeds superbly, Westley Richards soft and solid ammo.

Recently, I purchased a few boxes of the Hornady DGX and DSG ammo only to find that the new Hornady ammo will not even chamber in the rifle.

Any additional info on the variations between the measurements of the two cartridges, as well as which manufacturers use which designs would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
JC

Jc,
There are folks here with much more knowledge of the 404 than me, but I'll chime in since I had the same problem as you and the problem was in the amount of freebore my chamber had.
As originally designed, the 404 had a throat with very little if any freebore. The original 400 gr bullet was very short overall and had a very steep ogive. Thus it could chamber in in a zero freebore chamber. You can get a good idea of what it looked like if you look at Norma drawing of it in the reloading section of their website. There are a lot of different dimensions in the reamers out there. Some cut a chamber with more freebore than others. Some hold to the original design and have none. I dont know how much variation there has been in the case itself though, but believe there has to be some. I think your WR ammo is made by Kynoch and is made to the older dimensions to be able to function in older firearms. Not 100% sure though.
As best I have been able to gather, the Hornady stuff is made to the new CIP specs for the 404J. I do not know what date the latest CIP drawing is for the 404, but I'm sure someone on here knows. I ended up getting my barrel setback and my chamber re-cut to the latest CIP spec. Now mine will feed anything, including the Hornady stuff.

Hope this helps and hopefully someone will respond that can tell you more and can correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks!

Adam

Someone asswered the same question on the changes made to the 404J
over a period of time in another thread.

Will try to find it.

I think it was RWS who made some sort of change.


Look in the DR forum and maybe search for RWS, 404 etc in case I can't find it.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...821007131#1821007131


This was the answer
Hello, I am not familiar with any dimensional change history of the 404, but I can tell you that errors have been found in the original CIP measurments (when they were first standardized by CIP), and subsequent changes have been made as popularity - or complete resurection - of a particular cartidge comes to light.

The 450/400 3" is a recent example of this with the angled vs. radiused shoulder issue that was identified in 2007 and had to be changed before they would proof any new 450/400 3" rifles for us. (They insisted that we make the chambers to the original 1923 specifications, and we did.)

The CIP sheet on the 404 notes a 1984 date (when it was standardized) and a 2002 date for revisions. It does not note what those revisions were in 2002, but it is certainly possible that RWS led a change, as it was Triebel that led the 400 change. Maybe someone else here knows more about the 404's history?

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Someone asswered the same question on the changes made to the 404J
over a period of time in another thread.
.

Thanks 500,

Unfortunately, that thread doesn't really shed any practical light on the issue.

JC

quote:

I ended up getting my barrel setback and my chamber re-cut to the latest CIP spec. Now mine will feed anything, including the Hornady stuff.

Thanks!

Adam

Thanks Adam,

That is along the lines of what has been suggested to me. However, before I consider doing any work on the gun I would like to know what the exact issue is, and more specifically, who else is making ammo to the same specs as Westley Richards. (Fortunatly I still have 5 boxes each of the WR softs and solids so I am not in a huge rush to do anything either way.)

JC

I can't tell you about the ammo. Besides Hornday, Kynoch/WR, Norma and RWS are the only companies that load the 404 that I know of. Mine has only had Hornady and my handloads thru it. You might try having a chamber cast done for comparison. You could also try pulling a bullet from one of your Hornady rounds and see if the bolt will close on the empty case. If it does, you'll know that it is most likely a freebore issue. Good luck with it.

Adam

quote:

Originally posted by adamhunter:
You could also try pulling a bullet from one of your Hornady rounds and see if the bolt will close on the empty case. If it does, you'll know that it is most likely a freebore issue. Good luck with it.

Adam

I think Adam has the right idea. I would "paint" the cartridge(case and bullet) with a black permanent marker, then carefully attempt to chamber it until it stops. When you remove it you should be able to see what is stopping it form chambering.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

I think Adam has the right idea. I would "paint" the cartridge(case and bullet) with a black permanent marker, then carefully attempt to chamber it until it stops. When you remove it you should be able to see what is stopping it form chambering.

Agreed.

And if it's the shoulder or case size, you should be able to pull the bullet
and resize the cases and reload them.

An old (as in time ago, not age) member here called ALF had all the scoop on the 404J and it's variations. He also wrote up his findings in an excellent article in an issue of the BASA magazine. Do a search for 404J in ALF's posts and you will get a good idea of what the issues are/were.

quote:

Originally posted by adamhunter:

I think your WR ammo is made by Kynoch and is made to the older dimensions to be able to function in older firearms. Not 100% sure though.

Adam:

I would bet the WR ammo is made by Wolfgang Romey rather than Kynoch.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by adamhunter:

I think your WR ammo is made by Kynoch and is made to the older dimensions to be able to function in older firearms. Not 100% sure though.

Adam:

I would bet the WR ammo is made by Wolfgang Romey rather than Kynoch.

Thanks Dave! Forgot about Wolfgang Romey also chambering the 404 and now that you mention it, I think you're right.

Thanks!

Adam

JC,
Do you have reloading dies and brass?

JC, Larry Barnett at Superior Ammunition probably has the scoop on 404J variations.

I'm famous for asking those nonexistent stupid questions. Here's one: are you sure your rifle isn't chambered for 404 Dakota instead of 404J?

AFAIK WR didn't make any 404Dakota ammo.

Ruger got into some trouble when they chambered their No1 in 404J. Used, I believe, chamber design from ASquare which was incorrect. Sure would like to get hold of one of those No1'a, passed one up a couple years ago! Bugger!

Cheers, Chris

there's at least 2 specs on shoulder .. "newguy" posted a great break down on it .. i forgot the details, sorry, as the 404 doesn't have any real interest to me ..

i THINK what happened is, as is normal it seems, that the CIP standard in metric was improperly converted to inch .. again ..

Here's what I'd do. I would take that .404 Jeffery that was built on a Dakota action and have it re-chambered for .404 Dakota

Mine was built w/ a Clymer reamer. It seems to match my Reddign dies perfectly. Sorry, it has never seen factory ammo. The throat is on the short side, as most CIP specs seem to have.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by adamhunter:

I think your WR ammo is made by Kynoch and is made to the older dimensions to be able to function in older firearms. Not 100% sure though.

Adam:

I would bet the WR ammo is made by Wolfgang Romey rather than Kynoch.

I agree based on past knowledge from when they were in Sprigfield, MO

quote:

Originally posted by Rockdoc:
AFAIK WR didn't make any 404Dakota ammo.

Yeah, I kinda missed that little tidbit!

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all of the input. I will post here if I find any more conclusive answers. For now though, I did mark the cases and run them in the action. As you can the case on the left, the Hornady case that won't chamber, appears to bumping its shoulder. Meanwhile the case on the right, the Westley Richard case which runs fine, has no such marks.

JC

Pull the bullet and resize the case to push the shoulder back a bit more.

Suggest you do one to make sure that the base of the case has also been resized enough but that should solve your problem.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Pull the bullet and resize the case to push the shoulder back a bit more.

Suggest you do one to make sure that the base of the case has also been resized enough but that should solve your problem.

The issue is not one of handloading shells for this gun. (I already have 100 pieces of loaded WR ammo with brass that works fine if I want to reload). It is only one of determining what factory ammo will cycle in this gun and what the differences are in the cases for future reference.

With the Hornady ammo costing me only $65 a box of 20 it would have been nice to have been able to shoot that instead of the WR which cost $100-120 a box of 10.

JC

The case has to touch on the shoulder...it headspaces there.

Not to say it isn't headspacing on the wrong spot on the shoulder.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jcchartboy:


I understand what you are saying 100% and why you are doing it.

404's often have this problem because of the different chambers.

But at the moment you have X number of loaded rounds that can't be used
so I was just suggesting.

Just so happens I was reading about this last night. Try this---

Cheers,
Mark.

http://404jeffery.blogspot.com/

Even in the beginning, Jeffery did not attempt to keep the .404 proprietary but released it to the trade. With Jeffery and all the other London makers using Mauser actions and Krupp barrels, the heart and soul of the .404 Jeffery was German, and Mauser built its own .404s, with the European designation of 10.75x73mm Mauser, as early as 1908. The cartridge was sometimes referred to as .404 Jeffery Rimless or .404 Rimless Nitro Express as well. With all the London makers involved, there was some typically British fiddling with the specs for the .404 Jeffery, which may account for Ruger’s recent confusion, and it is actually the 10.75x73mm Mauser specs that should be used today.

The original 404 Jeffery cartridge was shorter in case length than it is today. In 1911 Kynoch changed the name to 404 Kynoch and this case was .007 inches longer than the original Jeffery, indicating that the ballistics of the .416 are achievable in certain rifles

For the record, the first rifles (Mauser 98s) from Jeffery in the new .404J cartridge were available in 1905 as advertised in their catalogue.

For a complete guide to the development and evolution of the .404 Jeffery read the superb articles (Part 1 and 2) published in the Big Bore Journal issues No 21 and 22 from March 2007 and June 2007.

These articles IMO are well researched and definitive on this famous cartridge answering most questions anyone would ever want to know.

The only mystery that still prevails is why did Jeffery call the new cartridge a .404 which has no relation to its groove or land dimensions.

In reading the catalogue entry for the new Model 1905 .404 Jeffery rifle which was his equivalent rimless cartridge to his rimmed 450/400 3" Jeffery, I think his nomenclature of the new cartridge referred to a .40cal in the broad sense with 4 cartridges available in the bolt action.

Sound far fetched? Read the catalogue entry for yourselves and note Jeffery's emphasis a number of times on 3 in the mag and one in the chamber making 4 shots available.

Anyway that is Eagles theory may it ever soar.

The Eagle and I have discussed this before so just to put another "theory" out there as to where the 404 designation came from I would add this. The two most influencial cartridges at the time (1904) that the 404 was developed for its release and inclusion in the 05 catalogue were the 303 of the UK (dont forget there had just been a couple of scirmishes with the Boer, and the US 30-03 and I wonder if Jeffery was riding the coat tails a bit by naming it the 404 because of the 40 cal of 1904.

Whatever the reason for naming it the fact remains it is one very fine cartridge.

I wonder if a solution to the non chambering of the Hornady ammo might be to buy second FLS die and open up the neck to .450 and remove the expander stem, so a loaded cartridge may have the body, and more importantly the shoulder resized without dismantling the cartridge, to fit your slightly shorter chamber. You could run any Hornady ammo through the opened up die for as perfect a fit as the kynoch. I had a CH4D FLS die opened up in the neck to only size down enough to give good neck tension without over sizing and then having to open it up again with an M die or expander. Minimal working of the brass.

Von Gruff