I know the Heym is popular, but I'm looking for a factual comparison from people who know both rifles well. The Sako 85 Safari, and the Heym Express, both in 416 Rigby. Advantages and disadvantages or each? Build quality? Reliability?

Thanks

Factual. Well, The Heym is CRF and the Sako is not. This does not matter to some folks, but it does to me; just my personal preference. So, I would choose the Heym Express.

The Sako has been described as a 'push' CRF. So, read the data/debates and make up your own mind on that subject.

Thank you both for answers.

Alf,

You seem to know heck of a lot about the subject. So what's your take on the question; Heym express or Sako 85 Safari?

Thanks

While the Mauser and others of it's ilk do offer positive extraction, it is actually the controlled round feed (CRF) that is the unique process.
Extraction to most is the pulling of the fired case or unfired cartridge from the chamber after it has been locked into battery. The CRF process occurs before this and in fact offers advantages before a cartridge is chambered or fired. In CRF, once a cartridge is taken from the magazine it is held captive on the bolt face irrespective of whether it is chambered and locked into battery or not so at this stage the cartridge can be ejected without having to be chambered and then extracted as a cartridge in a push feed action has to be.

So a Mauser or Mauser take-off is controlled feed first and foremost.

I have a Heym Martini Express in 416 Rigby. I is the smoothest feeding bolt rifle I have ever owned. This is probably because each Heym receiver and magazine is specifically machined for the cartridge the completed rifle will be chambered for. This means it is optimized for that particular cartridge.

The fit and finish is exceptional and while probably not critical for a rifle of this caliber, my rifle has also been a minute of angle performer with all the factory rounds I have used.

Alf is making much a-doo-doo about nothing again.
Of course the Winchester M70 Pre-'64 & Classic are "Controlled-Round-Feeding"
as is the Ruger Mark II/Hawkeye and the CZ 550 Magnum, and even the Sako 85 with three locking lugs,
just like the original Mauser M98.
But only the Mauser M98 and the CZ 550 Magnum, of those listed above are "Controlled-Round-Extracting"
due to the undercutting of the groove on the bolt where the extractor tongue/foot rides,
and the mating shape of that little extractor tongue/foot.
Pulling back on the bolt makes the extractor move inward for a deathgrip on the rim of the cartridge, with the Mauser M98 extractor conformation.
The CZ 550 Magnum does it too.

I do agree that there is no comparison between the Heym and the Sako.
Heym is preferable.
Hopefully it also has CRE like a Mauser M98.
new_guy where are you?
Sako can only be CRF only, obviously.

Rip ...

I have 3 Heym express rifles (375, 404 and 505) and they are all phenomenal rifles. They feed and function better than any other rifle I own and that includes custom rifles costing 2-3 times as much. The Martini stock fits me like a glove. I don’t have any experience with the Sako 85 but can guarantee you won’t go wrong with the Heym. Hint: if you’re serious about getting one, do it before Dallas Safari Club convention so you can have first pick at the wood grain.

Is it me or have RIP and ALF been arguing non-stop since 2007?

Great advice everyone. Just one last question. Does the Heym Express have the groove that forces the extractor to clamp harder on the rim when pulled back? I saw a drawing of that system once and it hit me as a most genius design by Paul Mauser. Unless it was added later on by someone else of course!

quote:

Originally posted by Clint:
if you’re serious about getting one, do it before Dallas Safari Club convention so you can have first pick at the wood grain.

Don't they throw in a free German scope if purchased during the show? It's one of the most attractive incentives if they are still doing that

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

quote:

Of course the Winchester M70 Pre-'64 & Classic are "Controlled-Round-Feeding"

Was waiting for you on this one RIP:

I ask again is the Winchester pre 64 and the Ruger 77 a true controlled feed action ?

Your hero one Finn Agaard says nay and recounts a number of instances where the pre 64 jammed because it is not a true CFR ! ie "double feeding" You see you can push the cartridge forward on a Pre 64 and a M77 without the rim actually being captured under the extractor ! once the cartridge is pushed home the extractor slips over the rim and captures it ! if the shooter panics and pulls the bolt back without the extractor engaging the rim he/she /it can now cycle a second cartridge with one already up the spout !

Alf,

Of course the Winchester M70 Pre-'64 & Classic are "Controlled-Round-Feeding."
They, like the Ruger Mk II/Hawkeye, CZ 550, Dakota 76, etc., copied the very features from Paul Mauser's M98 that make them so.
But not all of the features, so they are not quite as idiot proof as the M98.

Finn described a situation of a poor specimen of a rifle or a rifleman's lapse.
Some desirable features of the M70 CRF-plus-Pushfeed require responsibility for human error.

You are just arguing some semantics, as usual.

quote:

Originally posted by Clint:
I have 3 Heym express rifles (375, 404 and 505) and they are all phenomenal rifles. They feed and function better than any other rifle I own and that includes custom rifles costing 2-3 times as much. The Martini stock fits me like a glove. I don’t have any experience with the Sako 85 but can guarantee you won’t go wrong with the Heym. Hint: if you’re serious about getting one, do it before Dallas Safari Club convention so you can have first pick at the wood grain.

Clint,

Can you take a look at one of your Heym bolt actions and tell us if they are Controlled Round Extracting,
i.e, does it have the extractor tongue (& groove) "undercuts" as shown and described in the Stuart Otteson extracts (below)
describing the Mauser M98 ?

Also, can a cartridge be pushfed into battery without doing the "Mauser Extractor Pinch" with fingers of the off-hand as the bolt is closed ?

I do not own a Heym to check this, you lucky man,
but I do check these:
The Dakota M76 African, Winchester M70 Pre-'64 & Classic & FN/SC-made, and Ruger M77 Mk II (RSM too) & Hawkeye are not.
The CZ 550 Magnum and Medium are CRE like a Mauser M98.

All of the above are Controlled Round Feeding !

Book review extracts below.
Excellent book.





Rip ...

ALF,

See above.

"Without this technique, the Mauser can be easily jammed in the field ..."
Thus, an idiot can defeat the Mauser M98 if he tries hard enough.

Your semantics need some soul searching, or a kick in the keister !

Rip ...

If the Sako 85 Safari has those tapered dovetail mounts then that alone would be enough for me to get the Heym. Even Sako knows they are a problem by having a recoil notch/stop in the rear dovetail. I am fairly sure Sako on the TRG 42 (is that name?) do away with the tapered dovetails.

The Ruger RSM MK 2 and the CZ 550 bolts look and function identically.They are both CRF from the mag to the chamber.

When I used to talk to the old gunsmiths at Griffin & Howe, they felt the only true CRF was the original Mauser, where the cartridge had to be fed from the magazine. Modifying the boltface to allow it to "slip over" the rim reduced the effective strength of cartridge extraction.

Biebs

My Winchester Classics only allow feeding from the magazine. I halve not tried to feed a round from the rails only on a RSM or FN Winchester to know.

Likewise, pre64 Winchesters only allow feeding from the magazine, unless otherwise modified. A pre64 not modified will not close, go into battery on a round just laid in the rail.

The Montana X2 will only feed from the magazine.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
If the Sako 85 Safari has those tapered dovetail mounts then that alone would be enough for me to get the Heym. Even Sako knows they are a problem by having a recoil notch/stop in the rear dovetail. I am fairly sure Sako on the TRG 42 (is that name?) do away with the tapered dovetails.

Aye, Sako integral bases and the ever changing mounts to go on them are what turned me off on Sako.
The oldest were the best.
I quit paying attention to them after trying some "Optiloc" bases on one of the later ones.
Designed by Rube Goldberg.
Divested myself of all things Sako after that.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The Ruger RSM MK 2 and the CZ 550 bolts look and function identically.

Wrong. Get your trifocals and a magnifying glass and look at the extractor tongue & groove.

They are both CRF from the mag to the chamber.

I would agree with that last statement, even if Alf would not.
But the Rugers are CRF + PF and non-CRE.
while the CZs are CRF + CRE and non-PF

Just another misconception by shootaway, as usual.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
When I used to talk to the old gunsmiths at Griffin & Howe, they felt the only true CRF was the original Mauser, where the cartridge had to be fed from the magazine. Modifying the boltface to allow it to "slip over" the rim reduced the effective strength of cartridge extraction.

CRF and CRE are different.
The true Mauser M98 is CRF + CRE and non-PF, just like a CZ 550 Magnum, which copies the Mauser M98 features allowing this to be so.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Biebs

My Winchester Classics only allow feeding from the magazine.

That's funny, all my M70 Classics will feed from the magazine (CRF) and the bolt will close over a round dropped directly into the chamber on top of a full magazine.
Same for the Pre-'64s and the FN-SC-made ones.
They are all CRF + PF and non-CRE.

I halve not tried to feed a round from the rails only on a RSM or FN Winchester to know.

Those two actions are also CRF + PF and non-CRE.

Likewise, pre64 Winchesters only allow feeding from the magazine, unless otherwise modified.

Nope, they came from the factory with that capability.

A pre64 not modified will not close, go into battery on a round just laid in the rail.

Not so.

The Montana X2 will only feed from the magazine.

I just went and checked an MRC X2.
It has no bevel to the extractor tongue & groove,
and the bolt will close over a cartridge dropped directly into the chamber, or when lying on top of the rails, as you say.
It too is CRF + PF and no-CRE.

LHeym500: You got them all wrong ! How can that happen ?

I will gladly accept the gift of a Heym bolt action to be able to ascertain its CRE status.
Please do not send a Sako.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Biebs

My Winchester Classics only allow feeding from the magazine.

That's funny, all my M70 Classics will feed from the magazine (CRF) and the bolt will close over a round dropped directly into the chamber on top of a full magazine.
Same for the Pre-'64s and the FN-SC-made ones.
They are all CRF + PF and non-CRE.

I halve not tried to feed a round from the rails only on a RSM or FN Winchester to know.

Those two actions are also CRF + PF and non-CRE.

Likewise, pre64 Winchesters only allow feeding from the magazine, unless otherwise modified.

Nope, they came from the factory with that capability.

A pre64 not modified will not close, go into battery on a round just laid in the rail.

Not so.

The Montana X2 will only feed from the magazine.

I just went and checked an MRC X2.
It has no bevel to the extractor tongue & groove,
and the bolt will close over a cartridge dropped directly into the chamber, or when lying on top of the rails, as you say.
It too is CRF + PF and no-CRE.

LHeym500: You got them all wrong ! How can that happen ?

I can only talk about my rifles. I own two model 70 classic Model 70s. Neither will close on a cartridge just placed in the rails. You have to push them under the claw down in the box. The same with my Montana. The Montana will hold five rounds, and I can press a cartridge under the claw for a 6th, but it will close on a round in the rails.

I just tried it on a pre 64 338. It closed. I got that one dead wrong.

My two Classics are a 7mm STW barreled and chambered by someone unknown. The 35 Whelen is from the USRA Custom Shop.

Not trying to be argumentative. Just reporting. Anyone coming down I75 is welcome to stop in shoot anything I got, and I will cook diner.

I got a genuine, like new Masuer 7x57 setting in the gun room made in 1936. If anyone wants pictures for this thread, let me know of what and I will send them.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The Ruger RSM MK 2 and the CZ 550 bolts look and function identically.

Wrong. Get your trifocals and a magnifying glass and look at the extractor tongue & groove.

They are both CRF from the mag to the chamber.

I would agree with that last statement, even if Alf would not.
But the Rugers are CRF + PF and non-CRE.
while the CZs are CRF + CRE and non-PF

Just another misconception by shootaway, as usual.

Rip ...

It could be your Ruger is defective.My Rugers CANNOT push the cartridge off of the magazine without grabbing it and holding it until chambered.

Shootaway

They are not talking about feeding from the magazine. They are talking about extraction.

In layman’s terms whether the bolt/extractor is beveled. The layman’s test is see if the bolt will push and go into battery on a cartridge that is placed in the rails and not down in the magazine.

My two Model 70 Classic’s bolts will not close and go into battery on a cartridge placed in the rails. As RIP has reported, that is unusual for this model.

I think to square with RIP’s observations this has to do with the Whelen being a Custom Shop build and simple geometry of the STW feeding.

I just tried it again, and neither will. I was wrong, I say again wrong, about the pre64.

I got a pristine 1936 built Masuer 98 in the closet if anyone wants pictures of the bolt face/extractor for the thread.

quote:

Originally posted by adrian4444:

quote:

Originally posted by Clint:
if you’re serious about getting one, do it before Dallas Safari Club convention so you can have first pick at the wood grain.

Don't they throw in a free German scope if purchased during the show? It's one of the most attractive incentives if they are still doing that

They have done that in the past. I’d recommend calling Chris Sells and asking what the show special is. I bet you could reserve your wood and get whatever discount or free scope that they have going on. I have a picture of some of the rifles he has in stock if I can figure out how to post it.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Clint:
I have 3 Heym express rifles (375, 404 and 505) and they are all phenomenal rifles. They feed and function better than any other rifle I own and that includes custom rifles costing 2-3 times as much. The Martini stock fits me like a glove. I don’t have any experience with the Sako 85 but can guarantee you won’t go wrong with the Heym. Hint: if you’re serious about getting one, do it before Dallas Safari Club convention so you can have first pick at the wood grain.

Clint,

Can you take a look at one of your Heym bolt actions and tell us if they are Controlled Round Extracting,
i.e, does it have the extractor tongue (& groove) "undercuts" as shown and described in the Stuart Otteson extracts (below)
describing the Mauser M98 ?

Also, can a cartridge be pushfed into battery without doing the "Mauser Extractor Pinch" with fingers of the off-hand as the bolt is closed ?

I do not own a Heym to check this, you lucky man,
but I do check these:
The Dakota M76 African, Winchester M70 Pre-'64 & Classic & FN/SC-made, and Ruger M77 Mk II (RSM too) & Hawkeye are not.
The CZ 550 Magnum and Medium are CRE like a Mauser M98.

All of the above are Controlled Round Feeding !

Book review extracts below.
Excellent book.

Rip ...

Rip,
I’m out of town for Christmas but when I get back home, I’ll examine the Heym boltface and get some pics up.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Shootaway

They are not talking about feeding from the magazine. They are talking about extraction.

In layman’s terms whether the bolt/extractor is beveled. The layman’s test is see if the bolt will push and go into battery on a cartridge that is placed in the rails and not down in the magazine.

My two Model 70 Classic’s bolts will not close and go into battery on a cartridge placed in the rails. As RIP has reported, that is unusual for this model.

I think to square with RIP’s observations this has to do with the Whelen being a Custom Shop build and simple geometry of the STW feeding.

I just tried it again, and neither will. I was wrong, I say again wrong, about the pre64.

I got a pristine 1936 built Masuer 98 in the closet if anyone wants pictures of the bolt face/extractor for the thread.

There are two functions of the action discussed here.One is simply absolute control of the round from the magazine into the chamber and the other is being able to close on a round pushed into and already in the chamber.Both the CZ 550 and my Rugers will do this, however if one wants his bolt to have a "stronger" extraction and be similar in function to an original Mauser,a simple job on the extractor will allow this.If you choose to do this you might see your load capacity decrease by one round.

Alf (rip or anyone else can join in too)

Which is the action you would build a Mauser rifle on - I hunted with Barrie Duckworth converted k98 in 308win with German nazi makings - is that the closest to a proper Mauser.

How does the cz 550 and cz 527 action rank in relation to am a original Mauser. How about a ruger m77.

Everything else I own hunting wise is either a single shot or blaser save for a sako 85.

Thanks,

Mike

Here are some of the rifles in 375, 404 and 416 they have in stock currently. Some pretty nice sticks of wood there.

Very nice for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by Clint:



Here are some of the rifles in 375, 404 and 416 they have in stock currently. Some pretty nice sticks of wood there.

I tried my Heym 416 Rigby Martini Express and the bolt can easily be closed on a loaded round. I also checked the extractor and it is undercut. I could not see the bolt clearly but I would expect it is cut to match the undercut on the extractor.

A few years back a PH was severely mauled by a lion. With the lion on the PH a "modern 416 magnum rifle" fired one shot and then could not be opened to extract. To me this is an advantage of the older large case calibers such as the Rigby. The operating pressure is significantly less and they are therefore less likely to fail to extract.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Alf (rip or anyone else can join in too)

Which is the action you would build a Mauser rifle on - I hunted with Barrie Duckworth converted k98 in 308win with German nazi makings - is that the closest to a proper Mauser.

What Alf said, below, and this:

All my Whitworth M98 rifles do have the undercut extractor tongue & groove.
They are CRF + CRE but some of mine allow PF and some do not.
That is a matter of shaping the extractor claw to allow it to snap over the rim as the bolt is turned down.
Any true Mauser M98 can be made from CRF/CRE/non-PF into CRF/CRE/PF,
and I do not think that is a bad thing.
The reshaped claw is still retracted inward toward centerline of bolt by the unaltered CRE feature.
It will still rip the rim off a stuck cartridge before slipping off of it.
I give no dire warnings against that !

My one FN Mauser is not CRE.
It is like the Brevex Magnum action in that regard.
TWO EXCEPTIONS that may call themselves "Mauser" but ain't really.

If you want a CRF/CRE with 3.6" or longer magazine box then use a Prechtl or other quality M98 Magnum action.

Use a modern-steel, true CRF/CRE Mauser M98 or M98 Magnum action, not an old milsurp or Oberndorf antique.
Keep it Non-PF or make it +PF at your choosing.
I rather prefer +PF.


How does the cz 550 and cz 527 action rank in relation to am a original Mauser.

The CZ 550 Magnum and Medium are both CRF/CRE/non-PF like an original Mauser.
The CZ 527 has a "short extractor and plunger-style ejector": Non-CRF/Non-CRE/PF-Only

How about a ruger m77.

CRF/Non-CRE/+PF.

Everything else I own hunting wise is either a single shot or blaser save for a sako 85.

Single-shots good, Sakos less evil than Blasers.

Thanks,

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Personally it's not what action you use but who is going to do the build !

The most important part of the equation is the gun mechanic ! There are those who understand what is needed and those who don't ! You cannot go back once feeding rails have been destroyed !

Amen.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by gbs:
I tried my Heym 416 Rigby Martini Express and the bolt can easily be closed on a loaded round. I also checked the extractor and it is undercut. I could not see the bolt clearly but I would expect it is cut to match the undercut on the extractor.

Thanks. Makes sense. That's the way I like them.

A few years back a PH was severely mauled by a lion. With the lion on the PH a "modern 416 magnum rifle" fired one shot and then could not be opened to extract. To me this is an advantage of the older large case calibers such as the Rigby. The operating pressure is significantly less and they are therefore less likely to fail to extract.

Also, why a SAAMI .458 WIN with 500-grainers at 2200 fps and 60,000 psi is better than a SAAMI .458 Lott with 500-grainers at 2250 fps and 62,500 psi.

Load that .458 WIN-V at 3.6 COL and you can get same bullet going same speed as in the .458 Lott at lower pressure.
Might get a 480-grainer doing 2300 fps at about 55,000 psi, with the LongCOL .458 WIN-V.
Whatever the absolute numbers, at 3.6" COL, The .458 WIN-V can go faster than the SAAMI .458 Lott and at lower pressure than the .458 Lott.

Thus I have confidence in my Winchester M70 Classic .458 WIN-V-3.6", and my Winchester M70 FN/SC SAAMI .458 WIN-3.34".

If you must use a .458 Lott, better make it a Mauser M98 Magnum with Controlled Round Extracting.
No Brevex please but a Heym would do nicely.

Rip ...

I cant believe no one has mentioned the position of the sako 85 ejector!! It throws the ejecting cartridge straight up into the bottom of the scope. Do not buy one of these!

The Heym is better but due to todays large oculars on some scopes especially illuminated scopes the bolt handle can contact the scope if scope is mounted down low where it should be.

Best of luck.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Clint:
I have 3 Heym express rifles (375, 404 and 505) and they are all phenomenal rifles. They feed and function better than any other rifle I own and that includes custom rifles costing 2-3 times as much. The Martini stock fits me like a glove. I don’t have any experience with the Sako 85 but can guarantee you won’t go wrong with the Heym. Hint: if you’re serious about getting one, do it before Dallas Safari Club convention so you can have first pick at the wood grain.

Clint,

Can you take a look at one of your Heym bolt actions and tell us if they are Controlled Round Extracting,
i.e, does it have the extractor tongue (& groove) "undercuts" as shown and described in the Stuart Otteson extracts (below)
describing the Mauser M98 ?

Also, can a cartridge be pushfed into battery without doing the "Mauser Extractor Pinch" with fingers of the off-hand as the bolt is closed ?

I do not own a Heym to check this, you lucky man,
but I do check these:
The Dakota M76 African, Winchester M70 Pre-'64 & Classic & FN/SC-made, and Ruger M77 Mk II (RSM too) & Hawkeye are not.
The CZ 550 Magnum and Medium are CRE like a Mauser M98.

All of the above are Controlled Round Feeding !

Book review extracts below.
Excellent book.





Rip ...

Heym bolt is on the bottom and FZH bolt on the top. Looks like Heym has an undercut extractor tongue and groove like a Mauser 98.

It easily closes over a manually loaded round in the chamber.

I tried my Vektor Lott and it is very hard to close the bolt on a round already in the chamber.I don't want to force it any more and break something so I am not sure if it does.It is easier with my Rugers but still a little hard.I know my smith worked on the Rugers and made them that way.He first made them so that they would not close.I then asked him to make it so it will close as it was prior to him changing it.Both Rugers grab the cartridge without pushing and do so instantly and aggressively-with authority.I am not sure they were this way from the factory.Looking at the Vektor and Rugers bolts, I cannot see any difference that would make one function different from the other.

ALF,

Is that the original Vektor bolt handle in the first picture? If so it looks like the Rugers.The bolt handle on the second pic looks more like the ones I've seen on Vektors.
The bolt handle on my Vektor had once fallen off and I had it welded back on.

Interesting read!

Late to the thread, and enjoyable.

My two cents:

It is useful for a CRF extractor to be able to snap over a rim with a cartridge in/near the chamber. It is OK if it is a little stiff.

The problem is if the snap-over cannot be done at all. In that case a person ends up with a round jammed into the chamber and one may need a cleaning rod to push the round out and to make the rifle serviceable again.

My son had that problem once while chasing/tracking a hartebeest. He had to let the animal go and return to the truck in order to free up the cartridge. Yes, he was careful after that to always punch down new rounds into the magazine of that CZ Safari magnum so that they would come up and slide under the extractor for "normal" control-feed.

We later worked on that rifle and put on a different extractor so that the extractor was able to snap over a rim even after pushing a round into the chamber. I like my CRF bolts to snap over a chambered round, even if requiring a little extra force. In fact, I insist on the snapping-over capability if I want it on a hunt.

Thanks to Clint for the photos.
The Heym Express is a great rifle.
I am stuck with this one where I have to do the Mauser Extractor Pinch to pushfeed a 5th round into battery:






The dried oil/grease wiped off the bolt head nicely with Break Free CLP.
Yes she is a safe queen.

Here is the frontal view of the Mauser extractor claw not meant to snap over a rim with pushfeeding:



It could be re-shaped and beveled at the bottom of the claw to allow it to work like a Heym Express.
If I did that I would see about a little polishing of the upper edge of the claw.
As is, it works perfectly, as it came from the factory.
Maybe that serrated edge grabs the cartridges better ?
Any reduction of that edge in smoothing the curve will decrease the total area of rim that gets pulled on in extraction.
If you can MAUSER EXTRACTOR PINCH a round into battery, there is enough room in the right bolt raceway at the breech to allow it to be modified to like the Heym.
A picture of the shape of the Heym Express claw from the front would be nice,
pretty please ?

Rip ...