The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 404 Jeffery vs 416 RigbyGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Hey guys, just curious if anyone can tell me what the recoil of a 404 Jeffery is like compared to a 416 Rigby. I have a 375 H&H and am looking at something a bit bigger. I have shot a 416 Rigby and I find the recoil too much for me to handle, a 500 NE is nicer to shoot! Unfortunately I haven't had the opportunity to fire a 404. | ||
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| One of Us |
Depends how it’s loaded. If it’s loaded to 2400 FPS, it will be the same. 2200 (the original factory spec) is definitely less felt recoil to me. Of course that depends on gun fit and weight as well. | |||
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| One of Us |
Would you say the 404 is more of a push like the 500 felt? Or a snap like the 416? | |||
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| One of Us |
As stated if you push the 404J to 416 Rigby velocities, say 2300fps, rifle depending the recoil will be much the same. Original 404J British loads were about 2150fps stated, the Rigby more. I use standard British loads in my English 404J. Hornady Factory loads chrono a bit above 2300fps for a 400gn bullets, similar to the old RWS Ammo we used to get. The 500N is a nice cartridge. A lot comes down to recoil velocity and more importantly how well the rifle fits you and balance. DRSS | |||
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I felt the Rigby was not snappy- Comparing it to a fast gun. The slow .404 rounds were a shove. The .378 weatherby was fast and hard. If you felt the 500 NE was not objectionable, then why not go that route? | |||
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Moderator |
404 uses less powder to get the same bullet weight to the same vel. it takes A LOT of practice with both to tell the difference. pick the rifle you want, in these, as well as 416 rem, 416 ruger, and even 416 AR, the cart doesn't matter opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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one of us |
Used the 416 Rigby and Remington plus the .404 on a number of buffalo and a few elephant. Doubt they could tell the difference. I know I couldn't... On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died. If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch... Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! - Rudyard Kipling Life grows grim without senseless indulgence. | |||
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One of Us |
If the rifle fits you well and you can roll with the recoil and come back on target, that is proof that you shoot the rifle well and the recoil is not bothering you. If you get sore cheek, sore shoulder or skinned nuckles and scoped eye brow, then you know you are not going to have fun with the rifle. If you have 2 identical rifles that fit you well, you should find the recoil of the 404 Jefferey less. Pure physics. I enjoyed my CZ 550 mag Kevlar in 416 Rigby when I kept 400 gr bullets to 2450 fps max and used H4350. Going up to 2550 fps or using H4831 at lower velocity was a real beating I did not enjoy. I also enjoyed shooting the 350 & 340 gr bullets at 2700 fps rather than 2850 fps. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Both are fine. | |||
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| Administrator |
Recoil is a function of bullets weight, rifle weight, velocity and powder charge. It also on the shooter. Some seem to be more sensitive to recoil than others. Frankly, I would not imagine there will be that much of a difference between these two in similar weight, and design rifles. Shape of the stuck has a lot to do with felt recoil. I can shoot normal stocked rifles all day, regardless of caliber. I just hate the stupid Europe which have a lot of drop, and one has to place his chin on the stock to look through the scope! | |||
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| One of Us |
It's an extra $8,000. May have to figure out a way to put the money together. | |||
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| one of us |
All true, especially the part about it being "on the shooter." It is mostly on the shooter. Technique, practice, and physical attributes of the shooter do not amount to as much as the mental attributes of the shooter. Those include desire (or attitude) and pain tolerance. It is about like the opioid and cannabis epidemics, has to do with brain chemistry of the human. Some humans are dopers and some are not. The nondopers find the drugs dysphoric, would not touch the stuff, but may be recoil junkies. I suspect the dopers are the ones with low pain thresholds and poor recoil tolerance. If they are shooters, it is more likely to be heroin, rather than guns (God forbid !) that they are shooting. The recoil junkie is probably more likely to enjoy the high Scoville Heat Unit treats. The doper is more likely to like bland food and be a recoil wimp. The .404 Jeffery might be a half-pound lighter than the .416 Rigby for same magazine capacity and barrel weight, if both rifles are ideally set up. The difference is in the action and stock. With lesser powder charge delivering the same bullet weight at same velocity, the .404 Jeffery will have lesser recoil impulse, regardless of rifle weight. Both rifles can be loaded up or down for greater or lesser recoil. The bullet diameter difference amounts to less than the beans in the chili con carne. Ditto the recoil differences of the the two chamberings, given the compensating factors. The greater recoil impulse of the .416 Rigby is counteracted by the greater weight of the rifle. Both rifles ideally set up will have very similar felt recoil. Thai food may be rated on a scale of 1 to 5 for heat unit bracketing by the Thai restaurant. I once ate a full-course Thai meal of 5 on that scale. I have decided I prefer 4 on that scale, so I may not be the most gung ho of recoil junkies. There was a Chinese study that showed diets high in the spicy-hot foods was associated with increased risk of Alzheimer's disease. It may just be that they did not control for recoil junkies in that study. Stupid Chinese doctors !  .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum | |||
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Calibers or cartridges, per se, do not recoil at all, except in a general way depending on power level. In truth, only rifles recoil. With factory loads, and with rifles of equally appropriate weight and of equally good design, the .416 Rigby will recoil harder than the .404 Jeffery. I have fired 12 gauge shotguns that kick harder than both. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Normally the 404 is a smaller more compact gun than the Rigby, and on a smaller action as a rule...A push or snappy is an over used term cooked up by experts and passed down thru the ages!  What it really boils down to is felt recoil dependent on the stock fit..I always used the 404 Jefferys as my all time favorite with the .416 Remigton a second choice, as they were smaller and just handled better for me..Balistically the Rigby, 404 and 416 and several others are all about the same so pick one that fits you and caliber is secondary I suspect..I just never picked up a Rigby 416 that I like, sorta like a trophy bride, I couldn't afford one to start with and the one Ive had for over 60 years has worked out just fine and put up with my nonsence, so has the 404.. Just for the record, one can load the 404 to a bit over 2600 FPS and the Rigby to 2700 fps safely, with 4831 powder but good judgement is 2400 FPS that's the magic number IMO to bullet performance on game..They are very close in terms of powder capacity and the Rigby is basically a Weatherby without a belt..I used the 404 at 2600 fps on several safaris and much preferred the 2350 to 2400 FPS, for one thing it had a good deal less recoil, and it simply penetrated better and killed better it seemed..so my load was 93 gr. of 4831 for 2350 to 2400 with a 400 gr bullet..Monolithics might have made a difference and bridger flat nose solids did as did GS Customs HP, but Woodleighs were easier to find at the old Huntingtons so that's mostly what I used and they worked like a charm, still do. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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From your comment re the 500NE being nicer to shoot than the 416 Rigby rifle it may have been more the rifle fit rather than cartridge characteristic. The original Kynoch loading of the 404 was 2,125fps with a 400gr bullet and this load made the 404 'famous' as an easy shooting dangerous game cartridge, a workhorse for game rangers and sportsman alike. Kynoch increased the load when changing from Cordite to Nobels kernel type powder to give the 400 gr bullet 2,225 fps, a little more grunt without losing the easy shooting characteristic. Later loadings of 404 ammo by Norma for Parker Hale gave the 400 gr bullet 2,245 fps and RWS loaded to 2,330 fps. All these loadings keep the 404 at a pleasant shooting level with capacity to spare if wanting to up the ante. This lower intensity loading level and the cartridge length allowed the 404 to be produced on standard Mauser 98 actions without too much work required to open them up for the larger cartridge. Many of the light and trim Oberndorf sporters in 10.75 x 68 were converted in this way for the 404 (10.75 x 73) cartridge. The 404 with a good frontal cross section and bullet length loaded to 2,125-2,250 fps just gets the job done without fuss and fanfare. When I bought my Oberndorf 404 in 1977 I had a painful 'stiff' neck with a pinched nerve at the time and was a little concerned as to what the recoil was going to be like when firing my first shot with the 8.5 lb rifle. The recoil was nothing, just a good push with some muzzle rise. My 10lb Schultz and Larsen rifle in 7x61 (a belted 7mm magnum) had a more slam type recoil compared to the lightweight Mauser 404. Over the years many others have fired the 404 including a couple of fairly lightweight non-shooter women and while most, who haven't fired anything larger than a 30-06 sized cartridge, are a little stunned by the big push they all say there was no 'hurt' with it and were happy to fire more shots. My jacketed reloads for my 404 consist of the RWS 400 gr bullet loaded to 2,250fps. With these reloads and both Parker Hale and some 2,225 fps Kynoch ammo I have taken several Australian buffalo without any fuss, all dropping to single frontal or shoulder body shots, some taken from amongst small groups milling and charging around in jesse type country. The ease and effectiveness of shooting the 404 under these conditions provides a good sense of security and I can't think of anything that would persuade me I needed anything bigger, mind you I could run a hell of a lot faster in those days than I could now!!!!  | |||
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I agree with all this. I loaded my .404 to about 2150 with 400gr. bullets to shoot buffalo. On the range it was pleasant to shoot. On game I never felt a thing. kh | |||
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I have used the 416 Remington at 2000-2100 with 400 grains and also the 458 with 400 grains at 2000-2100 and recoil was very much like the 375 off the bench. | |||
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One of Us |
+2. Go fire some turkey loads in your pump shotgun. That was probably the most uncomfortable recoil I've yet felt. It's like getting punched in the face! Back to the original topic - it's a nice spot to occupy when you get to choose between a 404 and a 416 Rigby! First world problems!  Based on what others have said, both cartridges can be loaded up or down to suit the need. The Jeffrey will use less powder to get there, so technically it should recoil less with everything else being equal. The classic, workhorse load for the 404 that did all the work in Africa was a 400 and 2150 fps. It's been working for 100 years or so. It's widely considered to be a very comfortable-to-shoot DG load._____________________________________________________ No safe queens! | |||
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| one of us |
With todays modern powders, and the 404 case capacity equal to the 416 Rigby for all practical purposes, it amazes me how many shoot such mild loads in there 404s or quote such?? 95 grs. of H5831 in a 24, 26, or an original 27 inch barrel will get 2500 to 2600 FPS and low pressure and worked in 4 of my 404s .My pet loads were 90 to 93 grs of H4831, for 2300 to 2400 fps depending on barrel length. Mike the original owner of North Fork, tested these loads, gave them a pass and had me shoot buffalo and send him recovered bullets from live kills to some shots in dead bulls...My 2300 to 2400 loads were obviously better killers of buffalo than any factory or down loaded round....Just my two bits from shooting the 40s over 40 plus years mostly in Africa..I preferred it to the 470 and 500, as it accomplished the same thing and was easier to carry and shoot. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| One of Us |
I suppose it depends on the bullet being used as to the effect more velocity may produce. Apart from a couple of soft nose Kynoch I shot buffalo with from my 404, the other buffs I shot were with solids which were mostly pass throughs with only one found lodged in the rear hip joint after a frontal shot. Any extra velocity with the solids was wasted on the countryside after the damage to shoulders, spines, hearts and lungs was already done. Extra velocity with a soft nose, provided it doesn't blow up and not get into the vitals, will no doubt transfer more energy to an animal and provide greater shock than the same bullet at a lower velocity. But don't know that this holds true for solids. From my understanding the big boys are not so susceptible to shock and can absorb a lot of lead if the vitals are not reached and damaged? | |||
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One of Us |
Fords V/S Chevys IMO. Both have comparable K.O. I prefer the 416 but that's just me. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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| One of Us |
I find my 375 Weatherby to kick harder than my 416 Rigby. The 375 is heavier to boot. I load the Rigby right at 2550fps with Woodleigh 410gr RNSP’s. The 375 is loaded at 2830fps with a 300gr Woodleigh PP. The 375 runs 10lbs, the 416 is just over 9lbs. Cheers. | |||
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One of Us |
400 grain Woodleigh solids at 2160 have provided more that sufficient penetration on the elephant and buffalo I have hunted, with very mild recoil. The rifle is an origional Jeffery, with iron sights as it came from the factory in 1921, so I don't use it for plains game. Very mild recoil, even with the steel butplate, and is a light rifle, designed to carry a lot and handles like a shotgun. | |||
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Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| one of us |
I had to modify my post as I inserted 450-400 when it shou8d have read 404, I apoligise..I should reread my posts, but that's more trouble than its worth sometimes depending on the day of the week.  AS to the 450-400 at 2100 or so FPS, I have no doubt it works as I have used that load in the beginning, but later on I upped it to 2350 in my 404s to 2400 and IMO it worked even better with Bridger flat nose solids, and especially with GS Customs monolithic bullets and even those fine Woodleighs, I recall that Kynoch increased their 404 loads to 2300 FPS based on complaints by elephant hunters and PHs, so they upped it to 2300 FPS and from that day on the 404 made their reputation..A fact many have not realized..and 2300 was the load that made the 404 claim to fame.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Ray you are still getting your cartridges mixed up, we are talking about the 404 not the 450-400. I'm guessing it is the 404 you are talking about above not the 450-400, which being a cartridge principally used in a double rifle, would not have its velocity changed by Kynoch as this would require re-regulation of a double, an expensive and time consuming business. It was the 404 that Kynoch upped the velocity from the original 2,125fps to 2,225fps when they changed from using cordite, with a warning on the packet that rifles would need to be re-zeroed. Obviously this is easy to do on a bolt gun by changing front blades or compensating using the rear sights. Apart from the 300gr bullet loaded to 2,600fps, these were the two velocities that Kynoch loaded for the 400gr bullet in the 404. Kynoch velocities were measured in 28" barrels so would be even down a bit when shot through the normal 24" found on most 404's of the day. The 400gr solid ammunition that Norma loaded for Parker Hale, with which I shot several buffalo, was measured in a 24" barrel and gave 2,245fps. RWS loaded to 2,330fps although there are reports (Keith Luckhurst) that RWS ammo varied in powder charge and chronographed muzzle velocity. It seems the 404 has made it's good name and performed admirably with 400gr bullets in the velocity range 2,125fps to 2,330fps. I reload 400gr RWS solids to around 2,100-2,200fps and also took several buffalo with these reloads noticing no difference in performance between these and the factory Kynoch or Parker Hale. Dead is dead, a solid through both shoulders or high in the brisket taking out the blood vessels from the heart and getting back into the kidneys and spine if the angle is right is not going to perform any better going another 200fps but this extra velocity will be noticeable to the shooters shoulder. | |||
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| One of Us |
Felt recoil is subjective. I own 2 416 Rigby’s and 1 404 Jeffrey. My Ruger 416 was my first big bore and kicked the snot out of me. My other 416 and 404 are both CZ 550’s. Compared to my Ruger the 404 recoils a lot less, compared to my 416 in the CZ very little difference. I have noticed that Ruger stocks and I don’t always get along. As far as fit. I have a custom Ruger 77 in 416 Taylor with a custom stock that I can shoot all day, my 416 in my Ruger RSM 10-15 shots. My 416 CZ 550 30-40 shots, my 404 30-40 shots. Member NRA, NFA,CSSA,DSC,SCI,AFGA | |||
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| one of us |
Sometime between 1905 and 1912, Jeffery offered a higher velocity load in their 24"-barreled, fourshooter Mauser weighing 8.5 pounds. That was for a 400-gr FMJ "solid" at 2400 fps, using the new "Flat Strip High Velocity Cordite" at lower pressure than could be had with the "old pattern Cordite." They recommended the 2200 fps velocity for soft nose bullets:  That is from the "404 Jeffery History" thread:  I suppose this means I ought to keep my .458 WIN(-P) cast bullet loads under 2200 fps, but monometal copper bullets have no limit. Lower sectional density bullets are less prone to crumbling at a given velocity. I am hoping my .461/ 407-gr hardcast PCP-GC-Tiny-FN will be good on deer at 2170 fps. The .458/ 400-gr GSC HV was good on deer at +2500 fps. +2600 fps is possible with many 400-grainers of various sorts in the .458 WIN+P+. Back to the .404 Jeffery, recall that there was a 300-gr load at 2600 fps, used for sheep hunting by Mr. Chadwick. Could this .404 Jeffery 300-grainer @ 2600 fps have been double-bullet-regulated for use with the 400-grainer at 2200 fps, for same POI at some range using same POA/sight setting? More material for THE MISSION. .458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
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| One of Us |
Yes have a copy of that advertisement indicating a velocity of 2400 fps with the "new flat strip high velocity cordite" but have never seen this wonder load referenced anywhere else and Kynoch certainly didn't load it. Might have been a very short lived Jeffery initiative that never took off as that velocity was not really needed. I have Kynoch factory ammo with a label on the boxes advising of the increase in velocity to 2225fps when they changed to "nitro cellulose" powder although cordite was nitro powder too. From memory the powder charge in this increased velocity loading was 78.0grs when I pulled a bullet to weigh the charge and was highly likely and looked identical to Nobel 0 powder which I was using in my 7x61 S&H at the time. Nobel 0 being equivalent in burning rate to H4350. | |||
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Eagle 27, your correct but I corrected that post and apoligised prior to your post..I make a lot of mistakes as I age, ya just gotta live with it...  I also used the 450-400 at 2100 as it was the duplicate velocity of the 404 and I suppose that was confusing, I type faster than I think these days so apoligizes are in order, sooorrry!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| new member |
In my experience felt recoil has a great deal to do with the gun fit and stock, I have a CZ .416 rigby and found that the factory supplied stock gave a rather harsh recoil so I bought a second hand stock from a professional stocker which was one he had altered and surplus to his requirements and the difference is considerable. The rifle now feels very comfortable to shoot. | |||
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| Moderator |
today, we call this "marketing" opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Not 404J or 416R, but just had a heavy medium bore purpose built stalking rifle put together on a model 70 classic magnum action in 400 H&H, it takes only 75-76gr Varget to power the 400gr A-frame and Alaska Bullet Works Kodiak softs to a full 2400 fps, same/same for the 400gr Woodleigh solid, which BTW lands in the same group at 100 as the two soft points. The scope rides in QD rings, express barrel sights are dead on 50 yards with the solid, it weighs 8.5 lbs all up and ready to go, even with steel skeleton butt recoil is not to terribly bad, as said, this rifle will be carried much more than it will be shot, being an absolute tack driver that I've already developed a lot of faith in, it's ready for the hunt. Edit to add: also had a 10 lb 416 Rigby RSM that burned near 100 grains of H-4350 with 350 and 400gr bullets, it's recoil was on par with this lighter weight rifle using 25gr less powder. | |||
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Im pretty sure the difference in velocity between 2100 and 2400 FPS would only show up in buffalo hunting when the first shoot allowed the bull to turn and run, the second shot at 2400 will give you the better penetration, I found bullets in the upper neck with my 404 or 416? with the 2400 load, but in my 450-400 (a 40 caliber at 2000 to 2100) being the same just barely got into the shoulder area, but did do the required damaged to lungs etc...same when I, early on, shot my 404 at 2100 fps, again Im substituting or comparing like velocities and caliber that are the same so as not to confuse.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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That's good to hear Ray, i chronographed my 400gr Woodleigh FMJ load as well as loaded some of the new BBW #13 solids, the Woodleighs went 2411 fps, the new BBW's took two more grains of Varget to get to 2405 fps, based on what you just wrote, I think I'm ready for anything with those loads and will leave well enough alone. | |||
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I think the one factor everyone is neglecting is age. I didn't build my .404 until I was 66. It's 9 1/2 pounds and as I was working up loads I had to stop at 2075, and then back down to 2050, which I find comfortable. Granted, I have a slight tear in my right rotator cuff, but that happened after I shot the rifle, not before or during. More power to anyone who can withstand 2200+. I do love the gun though. | |||
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I've never shot a .404 to my recollection, but I have been shooting .416s for more than 35 years. It is my caliber of choice for Africa. I am not sure why or how the .416 got such a bad reputation for being horrible on recoil. It's not somehow unique to the laws of physics. On paper and all things being equal, the .404 may have marginally less recoil due to charge weight differences, but I don't see how one could tell the difference at the range or in the field. Shoot either accurately and things will die on the receiving end. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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My 375 Weatherby weighs 7 1/2 lbs with scope, and it's kick is like a 300 Win Mag. I attribute that to the soft Rem XCR II synthetic stock. My 500 Jeffery will clear your sinuses though. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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I don't have much experience with large calibers. but I do have some that might be pertinent here. My grandfather had a factory-original Mauser in .404. Built on a single-square-bridge magnum action, 24" barrel and fitted with a Parker Hale receiver peep sight. We left the eye-piece out to give a ghost ring. My uncle had a Cogswell & Harrison, also in .404. With it's 26" octagonal barrel it was considerably heavier than the Mauser. Yet, using the same original Kynoch factory ammo, the Mauser was a pleasure to shoot off-hand, whereas the Cogswell was like a mugger with a baseball bat. I did once shoot the Mauser from prone on a dirt road. Once was enough. Not because it hurt my shoulder, but because it hurt my elbows. I also shot a .416 Weatherby a few times. That was more pleasant than the Cogswell. I do believe stock design in these calibers is far more of a factor than the calibre (at least in calibres this close together). But don't ask me what specific factor in stock design, as the Mauser had a lot of drop. | |||
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Physics are physics. Stock design and fit play a big role in how one perceives/receives the physics... Recoil Calculator If you've ever shot one of Art Alphin's rifles then you know that stock design makes all the difference in felt recoil. Art was a sadist apparently. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 404 Jeffery vs 416 Rigby
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