Geoff Miller of California Rigby under FBI investigation.

I have just received confirmation that Geoff Miller has had a Federal felony complaint lodged against him with the FBI.
The complaint is under the “Stolen Valour” act.
It turns out that, not to the surprise of many I am sure, that Miller, has been lying to anybody that will listen for years about his military service.

Since the News of the resurrection of John Rigby & Co. in England broke some months ago, I have been following the story with great interest. It is obvious from many postings on this forum and many others that something about the whole Geoff Miller saga stank.
Here on AR just last week, people were questioning his use of chapter 11 bankruptcy to confound the then owner of the company.
There have been mutterings in this place and others that Geoff Miller is not all he says that he is. His military service was questioned on several occasions, not least on this forum by “Celticman” who stated that his claimed heroic service of his country was a sham.

Millers blustering and threatening responses to any question about his credibility just seemed to me to be the act of somebody with something to hide. His attack on respected journalists on the American Rifleman site http://www.americanrifleman.or....aspx?id=2011&cid=25 seemed to be a futile attempt to gag criticism.

The final straw was the ridiculous sycophantic article by Steve Helsley recently published in Safari Times magazine.
With all the rumour flying around I decided that it was time to call in some favours and burn up some capital finding out the truth of all this.

Well here is some of it, or at least all that I can get to currently. For certain there is much more.

Anybody having difficulty viewing these documents, they are posted on a photobucket.com public album, the user being bullseye2010

In the link above to “American Rifleman.org”, Miller refers to a 2002 Double gun journal Article, so I obtained a copy. Page 123 is reproduced below. The journalist is the very same Steve Helsley.




If you look at the left hand column you will see that Craig Boddington is present. He is promoted in this article to “General Boddington” This is not as strange as it seems as Colonel Boddington USMCR, as he was, is later censored by the Marine Corps for assuming rank to which he was not entitled during this conflict.
So we have Miller ,Boddington and Helsley all telling the same lie, or allowing it to be told. That Miller is a Veteran Marine.

And how do we know it is a lie………Because Mr Miller himself has admitted on oath, that it is a lie.
Further Mr Miller has tried to lay the blame for this lie at the feet of Colonel Boddington.
Below is a transcript that I have obtained from the public record of the 2007 Cali’ Rigby Bankruptcy hearing.







This could be a one off mistake the supporters of Miller may claim…. However below is an article from Double Gun Journal 1997



The author this time is Our friend Craig Boddington again. This time Miller is a “HIGHLY DECORATED MARINE” Why would Boddington do this one asks, well because it turns out he and his family have always been investors in Cali’Rigby. So all the time Mr Boddington was writing articles as a journalist he was feathering his own nest aided by this deception.
Only a few short weeks ago Mr Boddington stated in correspondence in answer to a direct question, that he (Boddington) had seen Miller in uniform and the Navy Cross displayed on his wall.

In this article Mr Boddington and his fellow MARINE, Miller



Are using a Veterans Charity to reinforce their lies.



Mr Boddington, or should I call you General. You have posted frequently on this forum and indeed used it as a vehicle to elicit sympathy and collect money on your family’s behalf. So I ask you here. Which is it…Miller has sworn on oath that he “Told you the opposite”… That you knew he was not a veteran Marine. Is that true ??
You know Miller is a fraud, a liar and under the terms of the “Stolen Valour Act” is a criminal. He is the lowest form of human existence to claim to be anyway related to those brave men and boys that are being brought home at this very moment in body bags, or horribly injured in defence of their country.
You Sir, were once a Marine and a ranking officer at that, presumably you still draw a service pension. Are you going to allow this to continue…….have you no pride or dignity, is it all about the money…

Mr Boddington. If Mr Geoff Miller told you that he was a Former decorated Marine, then he has lied to you, and his statement on oath, as shown above, is false and he is guilty of perjury. Furthermore he is guilty of an offence under the “Stolen Valour Act” You have said, that you have seen him displaying a “Navy Cross” to which he is clearly not entitled. You have a clear duty to report him for these offences to the relevant authorities. Mr Miller has thrown you to the wolves under oath so he is clearly no friend. If you fail to act you are obviously colluding with him in this continuing deception and his criminal acts.

If Miller, as he claims, did not tell you that he was a former Marine, told you indeed that he was not, but allowed you to lie on his behalf in your 1997 article, then you Sir are guilty of a criminal conspiracy.
So Mr Boddington, which is it, deceived or deceiver ??

Mr Helsley, you also post here, you have this one public chance. ..Are you a conspirator or just a dupe?
For it is simple Mr Helsley…Either Miller or Boddington, or both, told you when you visited to write the article above in 2002, that Miller was a decorated Marine and you believed them, an wrote it as fact, in which case no blame attaches to you other than shoddy journalism…which in any event your recent article demonstrates..OR.. you are a conspirator in a Federal crime…Miller is sending out copies of your article and repeating the lie…and each time he does it, it is one more indictment . Which is it Mr Helsley???? Fool or Knave??
If either or both of them (Boddington/Miller) told you that Miller had served his country, you MUST go to the FBI and give a statement, if you do not, then one can only conclude that you are a co-conspirator or guilty of conspiracy after the fact.

Mr Boddington and Mr Helsley, you use this forum when it suits you to further your aims and those of Miller. Unless you reply publicly within the next 3 days on this forum explaining yourselves and stating that you have contacted the FBI in regard of this matter. Then I see no option but to forward all relevant information to the FBI and the California Courts, lodge a complaint and ask them to consider charges of conspiracy and perjury.

Now this stinking story gets worse. Miller has been trumpeted for years as SCI’s biggest contributor. Steve Helsleys article was in Safari. They intend to allow Miller to present a gun to G W Bush at the gala dinner.

And do you know what I discovered ?, SCI know all about it. They know Miller is a liar and a criminal and they have declined in writing to do anything about it.

So I say the same to you as to Mr Helsley,

SCI…You are aware of the crime, the evidence is plain, it is sworn testimony and it is reproduced above. Mr Miller has fraudulently used, or allowed to be used, by his testimony, with the collusion of Mr Boddington, and the possible collusion or at the very least, misdirection of your contributing journalist, false claims of military service to further his business interests. You, by publishing Mr Helsley’s sycophantic rubbish have assisted Miller in this. If you fail to act now against Miller, you are a guilty as he is. The same question applies to you…is it just about the money ??? Are there no former soldiers or seamen on that board that are disgusted by this man ??

To all the members of this forum that are Military veterans, Police veterans, Fire-fighters and others that put their lives and well being on the line for their country and other people. Do you feel comfortable with this man shaking hands with the former president ?? Do you want to share your honour with this man ??

If not, mail or call your local FBI office and demand that they arrest Miller. Call the SCI and demand that they take action.
To allow this to slide is a shame on the nation.

Does Stolen Valor apply to Obama too?

Is this post legit??

I can't wait to see CB's response.

I don't think we can blame Craig Boddington about saying that Miller was a marine.

Miller might have told him that.

How many of us check the credibility of people we meet?

I can't speak for Boddington, of course, but while he was on active duty in the Middle East, I looked at his C.V. provided, not by him, but the U.S.M.C. It was most impressive.

I've spoken to him about his "frocking" (putting on his star after selection, but prior to approval from Congress). I beleive he was told to do so by his superiors, who, failed to support him when the controversy arose.

Regardless, Boddington made 0-6, fair and square and served our country well. Smearing him with what may be a brush properly suited for Miller???? (and we'll soon determine that, I reckon) may show an agenda that has little to do with Miller.

The (fellow) doth protest to much, me thinks.

Boddington was "guilty" of frocking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frocking

Whatever Miller did, or didn't do -- someone is TRYING to make others guilty by association!

In fact, your post is slamming Boddington, right till you ask that people call and request arrest.

what's the REAL agenda here?

Yes Boddington was quilty. As to what his superiors did or didn't tell him to do only they know.

If you are simply asking Boddington or Helsley what if anything Miller told or didn't tell them there are far better ways to do it. How about simply asking.

As to Miller telling them or not. Having been married to a world clase liar for about 25 years Miller didn't have to actually tell them anything. Theycould have simply assumed based on observation, other write ups stc. All Miller would have to do is simply not offer a word of carification or negatives to their asumption and he could honestly say under oath that he NEVER TOLD them he was a Marine. Then again he never told them he wasn't either.

While I never served my son. I have a hard time seeing a true marine knowingly allowing someone to claim they were a Marine if they weren't.

I agree with others what is the AGENDA here?

Boddington never was a general he was a colnel.

On face your argument looks credible....

But look at the dates of the depostion feb 2007...all the articles date prior to this date.

So if everyone thought Miller to be a Marine to that point(feb 07)...but he was forced with an up coming trial before that date to come clean,how is this info applicable.Miller never states a date when he said he was not a marine,could have been the night before,and still be true.

Are there any references after feb 2007?

That's the only date that matters.IMOBefore that everyone can just say they got fooled.

Then I can see your case....if not it doesn't hold water.

quote:

Boddington never was a general he was a colnel.

That is what Judge said 0-6.

This is from Boddingtons website.

MILITARY EXPERIENCE:

31 years service as Marine Corps infantry officer. Served as infantry platoon commander, company executive officer, infantry company commander, headquarters company commander, battalion logistics officer, battalion operations officer, battalion executive officer, regimental operations officer, infantry battalion commander, Assistant Chief of Staff/G-3 (Operations) on brigade staff, Group commanding officer. Activated in support of Operation Desert Shield/Storm in 1991 and Operation Vigilant Warrior in 1994. Recalled to active duty for six months in 1997 and six months in 1998 to serve as Current Operations Officer for I Marine Expeditionary Force. Recalled to active duty to serve as Marine Forces Pacific Liaison to U.S. Central Command from January through April 1999. Recalled to active duty March-August 2000 to serve as Current Operatons Officer, I Marine Expeditionary Force. Recalled to active duty March 2002—February 2003 to serve as Commander, Combined-Joint Task Force Consequence Management, headquartered in Kuwait. Decorations include: Defense Superior Service Medal, Legion of Merit, Meritorious Service Medal (Gold Star in lieu of second award), Navy Commendation Medal (Gold Star in lieu of second award). Promoted to Colonel USMCR October 1996. Selected for promotion to Brigadier General USMCR in April 2001. Retired September 2005.

Miller told me he was a either a Navy or Marine Corps pilot, I think. He was very nice to me, as most pilots are considering what I do for a living (survival equipment, parachutes, rafts, and so on).

No idea if he was or not.

Maybe Miller lied about his service. He wouldn't be the first guy to try such a stupid and dishonorable move.

But you sure have not proved that he did.

Neither have you proved that Messrs. Boddington or Helsley were involved in any conspiracy to promote Miller as a Marine veteran.

You clearly have issues with the men mentioned above, but why you would go to so much trouble to attack them is not clear to me.

If I was concerned with the 'issues' and questions you seem to have, I would address the gentlemen via private message not by this type of public posting. Have you even attempted to get an explaination from them or are you just attempting to stir the pot and start a debate?
IMHO, what you are doing is rude and very un-gentlemanly.

Ya know, I have a buddy who has owned four double rifles, a California Rigby, Searcy, Merkel, and a Heym. He liked his California Rigby best of the bunch. Now, I know that's just one man's opinion but maybe it's time we leave poor old Geoff alone. If you don't want to buy his guns then that's your choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I don't think we can blame Craig Boddington about saying that Miller was a marine.

Miller might have told him that.

How many of us check the credibility of people we meet?

I agree - there is no need to be so harsh on Boddington for this... what's he supposed to do? Run a background check on everyone he meets that claims to be a fellow Marine? Please.

In addition, seeing as how at one point Miller was apparently a close friend, why would he do a background check on his buddy??

Personally, I find the following far more disturbing if true:

quote:

Originally posted by Mintyman:
...it turns out he and his family have always been investors in Cali’Rigby. So all the time Mr. Boddington was writing articles as a journalist he was feathering his own nest...

It is one thing for gun-writers to “keep silent” about bad products. (Which is a practice I strongly condemn. The lack of critical review in gun rags is a joke.)

But to openly praise a product and not disclose the fact that you are an investor in said company, that’s just taking things one step too far, IMHO.

I have seen Craig with that California Rigby (450 X 3.25) in a few shows and I believe it was elephant hunting. If he did not have total confidence in the weapon, I would venture to say he would not risk his life and PH's as a tool for the job. BTW; I recall CB saying it was a Rigby but not a California Rigby so was he really hawking the company?
I have not handled or shot a California Rigby (double rifle) but have seen one bolt action and it appeared exceptional. What appeared to be far greater attention to detail (superficially) than the semi customs such as Dakota.
If I were to invest in such a venture such as Rigby California and I was a hunter, I would try and own one of their rifles as well and hopefully be proud to use it.
I would like to applaud anyone that has the guts to try and develop a following in this competitive small field. There has got to be a significant stress level. Easy for us to judge someone else, but I have never met the man (Miller). I never condone not being honest. People due desperate things when their good fortune is in jeopardy, little do they realize those things may come back to haunt them in the future.
I do not own a California Rigby so it does not effect me.
There sure are a lot of people that like to pick on ole CB on this forum. Not long ago everyone had to put in their two cents on the hunting accident regarding his daughter. I hope no one on this forum is ever involved in such an a incident. It may haunt that young lady the remainder of her years.
Craig does not know me from adam but he does recognize me and always acknowledges my presence or my sons and has always been a gentleman. I am sure he grins and bares these threads.

Anyone here care brag on your investment in your 401 K in 2007 and 2008? Looking back, I would assume if you knew what you know now, you would done things a little differently. Craig may feel the same way about his association with Rigby, California.


EZ

Mintyman, your profile shows a total of 17 posts on AR. I took a look and 16 of those posts involve fomenting trouble for Geoff Miller. I don't give a rat's ass about Miller, Rigby or anyone involved but I feel strongly that if you want to attack them on a public forum you ought to be man enough to provide your real name and disclose your agenda. You appear to be a sniveling little shit for utilizing the anonymity of the web to make your attacks.

quote:

You appear to be a sniveling little shit for utilizing the anonymity of the web to make your attacks.

Amen.

If he's so upset about Boddington's association with Rigby w/o disclosure, then he's just as guilty of attacking while hiding. A whopping 17 posts and just about all of them negative. My bet is you're just another angry anti-hunter with an axe to grind.

FWIW, the first time I met Col Boddington he corrected me when I shook his hand and addressed him as general.

quote:

Mintyman, your profile shows a total of 17 posts on AR. I took a look and 16 of those posts involve fomenting trouble for Geoff Miller.

I would not mind if all 17 posts and threads were deleted.

Dear Ms. Mintyman, ye of 17 posts:

You seem to think what you have to say is of such great import that you've posted it twice on two different boards here at AR.

I don't give a damn about Geof Miller nor his legal issues. He would not be the first to claim undeserved military honors nor will he be the last. If he has done, then I will gladly on his grave.

I've met Craig a number of times over the years and have spoken with him specifically about the frocking incident. Suffice it to say I can find little, if any, blame on his part. He spent 31 years as a Marine Officer serving the U.S.A. and retired honorably as a Colonel of Marines after many active duty tours in combat zones, the last as a Commander of a Joint Task Force which was a BG billet.

Although you are very concerned about the Stolen Valor issue, you have not enlightened us as to your own service, if any. FYI, mine was as a Marine and included 415 days in the beautiful Republic of Viet Nam in '66-'67, so, you see, I understand the issues of frocking and of Stolen Valor.

Please do AR a favor and find some other venue to frequent.

Semper Fi

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Dear Ms. Mintyman, ye of 17 posts:

You seem to think what you have to say is of such great import that you've posted it twice on two different boards here at AR.

I don't give a damn about Geof Miller nor his legal issues. He would not be the first to claim undeserved military honors nor will he be the last. If he has done, then I will gladly on his grave.

Please do AR a favor and find some other venue to frequent.

Semper Fi

+1

quote:

would not mind if all 17 posts and threads were deleted.

Maybe not a bad idea.
IMO this whole thing is fishy.
An investigation actually in progress is not made public. I don't care if it's the FBI or Mayberry Police Department.
I did learn a few things after 27 years in law enforcement.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
You appear to be a sniveling little shit for utilizing the anonymity of the web to make your attacks.

Couldn't have said it better.

I agree with some old guy above, something is real fishy here.

After working a couple times with the FBI on joint investigations over the past 30+ years as a LEO (local, State & Federal) I'm pretty sure they would not comment about this or most any other ongoing investigations to an outside party.

In other words, this does not pass the smell test....

Thank you very much Mintyman to bring this out into the open. It needs courage to take a stand such as you have taken. I applaud you for doing so.
All Geoff Miller has to do is to post his discharge papers on this forum. That will make all this go away. Funny thing is, somehow I just know he won’t.
Will the “real Geoff Miller” please stand up?
As always, the truth will prevail.

quote:

Mr Boddington, or should I call you General. You have posted frequently on this forum and indeed used it as a vehicle to elicit sympathy and collect money on your family’s behalf. So I ask you here. Which is it…Miller has sworn on oath that he “Told you the opposite”… That you knew he was not a veteran Marine. Is that true ??
You know Miller is a fraud, a liar and under the terms of the “Stolen Valour Act” is a criminal. He is the lowest form of human existence to claim to be anyway related to those brave men and boys that are being brought home at this very moment in body bags, or horribly injured in defence of their country.
You Sir, were once a Marine and a ranking officer at that, presumably you still draw a service pension. Are you going to allow this to continue…….have you no pride or dignity, is it all about the money…

Mr Boddington. If Mr Geoff Miller told you that he was a Former decorated Marine, then he has lied to you, and his statement on oath, as shown above, is false and he is guilty of perjury. Furthermore he is guilty of an offence under the “Stolen Valour Act” You have said, that you have seen him displaying a “Navy Cross” to which he is clearly not entitled. You have a clear duty to report him for these offences to the relevant authorities. Mr Miller has thrown you to the wolves under oath so he is clearly no friend. If you fail to act you are obviously colluding with him in this continuing deception and his criminal acts.

If Miller, as he claims, did not tell you that he was a former Marine, told you indeed that he was not, but allowed you to lie on his behalf in your 1997 article, then you Sir are guilty of a criminal conspiracy.
So Mr Boddington, which is it, deceived or deceiver ??

Mr Helsley, you also post here, you have this one public chance. ..Are you a conspirator or just a dupe?
For it is simple Mr Helsley…Either Miller or Boddington, or both, told you when you visited to write the article above in 2002, that Miller was a decorated Marine and you believed them, an wrote it as fact, in which case no blame attaches to you other than shoddy journalism…which in any event your recent article demonstrates..OR.. you are a conspirator in a Federal crime…Miller is sending out copies of your article and repeating the lie…and each time he does it, it is one more indictment . Which is it Mr Helsley???? Fool or Knave??
If either or both of them (Boddington/Miller) told you that Miller had served his country, you MUST go to the FBI and give a statement, if you do not, then one can only conclude that you are a co-conspirator or guilty of conspiracy after the fact.

I thought this was common knowledge: In the US, a person is innocent until proven guilty. I hope for the OP's sake that these people have been found guilty of conspiracy, etc. in a court of law. Until such time, they are innocent.

Definitely some bad juju here!

Craig Boddington deserves better then to have his name dragged through the mud after all he has done for our sport and Country.

celticman and mintyman, probably the same person, definate same MO.

Seriously, time to delete this crap.

It's bad form to confront someone publicly with questions you don't have the answers to.

Also, the legal system is required to presume someone innocent, private citizens are not.

quote:

Originally posted by Sevenxbjt:

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
Craig Boddington deserves better then to have his name dragged through the mud after all he has done for our sport and Country.

+1

+2

Miller must be quite the ladies man, sounds like he may have ran off with more than one girlfriend. (If you do not get it read the Terry Weiland thread)

quote:

Originally posted by Celticman:
Thank you very much Mintyman to bring this out into the open. It needs courage to take a stand such as you have taken. I applaud you for doing so.
All Geoff Miller has to do is to post his discharge papers on this forum. That will make all this go away. Funny thing is, somehow I just know he won’t.
Will the “real Geoff Miller” please stand up?
As always, the truth will prevail.

If you would make all your posts under one ID you will increase the post count for that ID and maybe people would be more apt to listen to your drivel.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

quote:

Originally posted by Sevenxbjt:

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
Craig Boddington deserves better then to have his name dragged through the mud after all he has done for our sport and Country.

+1

+2

Miller must be quite the ladies man, sounds like he may have ran off with more than one girlfriend. (If you do not get it read the Terry Weiland thread)

Wonder what she looks like.

Sniff, sniff. Do I detect Col. Klink?

The Special Forces Assn and the Ranger Companies Assn. have a group that relies on members to read their local newspapers looking for glory hounds touting their "highly decorated exploits as a member of the Green Berets or the (former, Bush thought it would boost morale if the cooks and company clerks and truck drivers had them black, now) tan beret Rangers. It would absolutely amaze you the number of scoundrels that are stupid enough to grant interviews in their local newspapers and on TV and Radio with fantastic stories about their alleged service (and heroism) generally in Vietnam. I had a guy once tell me of feats of legendary status that couldn't tell me what a "prick-25" was, or a "baby blanket". PRC-25 was the standard issue radio, and a baby blanket was the camo poncho liner issued.

In case you want the easy answer, they talk about "secret missions" into enemy territory, and are vague on detail, often suggesting that their missions were and still are "highly classified", the "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you" garbage. I always ask these guys just where and with what unit they were stationed with, and the dates. Name the exact unit. Real vets, as you all know, can tell you the day they arrived, every unit they served with, along with the locale; and DEROS and ETS mean. It would be funny, if it weren't so sad; and criminal.

Rich
Sua Sponte

Wow! Talk about killing the messenger. I'm glad to see someone spent the effort to track down some of Mr. Miller's outlandish claims. A microbiologist, a pilot, an aerospace engineer, a boxer, a Marine, a gunmaker....? He seems to me like a flim-flam man who sucks up to people who have built a real reputation such as Gen. Yeager and Col. Boddington.
Why is any of this important? Because Mr. Miller has hood winked many customers and investors into buying into the myth that his shotgun/rifle conversions are "Best Quality Double Rifles" and that he is carrying on the tradition of a centuries old and well respected company. How would you like to be one of those people listed on the Rigby/Miller bankruptcy list? Only to find out that you have been taken to the cleaners. How would you feel if you had paid $30,000 plus for a Best Quality box-lock double rifle built by the world renowned John Rigby and Co. only to find out it is a gussied up German shotgun? I'm glad that Mintyman has helped to shine the light of truth on Mr. Miller. It is obvious that many out there can't or won't understand what Mr. Miller is doing.
I don't know what Boddington and Helsley were told or what they know of this but, it reminds me of the story about the guy who went to church and listened to the same racist anti-American pastor for 20 yrs. only to claim later that he had no idea that the Pastor was like that.
If Boddington and /or Helsley were hood winked they should say so. But, if I was on the Rigby/Miller Bankruptcy list I might keep my mouth publicly shut and hope that I could get some of my money back.

Yes...There are about 20 ex selous scouts for every one who actually served . Funny though, very few in Africa claim to be ex squadron when they are not...

OK, that's it. I'm tearing up my Internet Lawyer Diploma, just after I'd printed it out. I think I'll just join the spectators in the courtroom.

Looks like someone needs to appoint a judge, though. I wouldn't want to be a judge because I wouldn't get to conk anyone over the head with a gavel.

I hate to contribute any longer to keep this thread going and I will leave Mr B. alone.
If any of this is true regarding Mr Millers boasting, it is probably less likely to do with his ego and more to do with business concessions that allowed veterans by the state of California. California appears to go out of its way to support business endeavors to veterans. A very good thing in my opinion. It " might" be some sort of financial concessions that the state is allowing his operation for duty to country.
In the business I am involved in, the state promotes channels to large business via veteran owned companies not unlike MWBE'. Typically states are fairly thorough when they complete their due diligence regarding application for MWBE or veteran business ventures. This is the only reason I would believe any law enforcement agency might be involved but would think it would be the state police not the Feds.
Food for thought? This is just a thought!

Ganyana,

I think that it's because Zim is so small compared to the USA and the vets all know each other there...Can't get away with the Bullshit. Imagine someone telling Wayne Grant that they were in Fire-Force and they weren't? I think someone would be getting their ass kicked!

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Yes...There are about 20 ex selous scouts for every one who actually served . Funny though, very few in Africa claim to be ex squadron when they are not...

I have had one or two question the extent and quality of my service in Vietnam. I had a scrapbook and would occasionally show the contents. My wife made me stop, she was losing friends. Turns out most people don't really like to see what war is all about on an up and close basis.

Rich