Gentlemen, this has been one of the most informative strings on the Whitworth rifles, I've seen to date! This could be a very good text for a Whitworth collector to print, and keep on hand!
One of the problems with imports like those imported by companies like Interarms. They rarely even know themselves the different changes, and features as time passes. This leaves a large void in the information a collector gleen to date, and authinacate his pieces. I can tell you this has made me want one of the Express rifles in 30-06, and 7mm Rem Mag, now that I know they were not just conglomerations of spare parts!

The one thing that still puzzels me is, the large castle mark on the top of the barrel of that rifle pictured. That mark looks fimiliar to me! The mark looks strangely like the Corp of Engeniers, insignia, and could perhaps be one of a special order from the C.O.E. for issue to employees working in Alaska. I know the forestry service issued 375 H&H rifles to employees in the field in Alaska, but don't know what brand. Would be nice to find out if they were Whitworths!

Slight deviation from the topic but if you look at the picture of the castle carefully you can see the essential gap between the front ring and the barrel shoulder. In person, not so noticable but that is the right way to barrel a Paul Mauser rifle.

Is the Whitworth in 375 H&H better than the ZKK 602 Brno? I belive that the Whitworth is a standard length action wereas the ZKK is a magnum length action making them more desirable! Any thoughts?

I think that depends on one's preferences. The Whitworth makes for a lighter carrying rifle and if the comparison is limited to the two calibers available in a Whitworth (375 and 458), that alone could make it more desirable to some.

Others might want more rifle weight and/or a larger caliber and then the Brno gets the nod.

I owned a ZKK602 in 375 and two Whitworths in 375. I like both very much. The Whitworth is trimmer, points faster, lighter, slicker, overall finish a little better but holds fewer rounds, not as massive if that's what you like.

FWIW
1985 Interarms catalog shows Whitworth American Field Series, Whitworth Express Rifle in Safari Calibers and Whitwoth Mannlicher Style Carbine. These are different from the '79 catalog of Classic, Alaskan, Cavalier, Viscount, Marquis, and Continental models. All these Whitwoth models are styled like the 20's and 30's British sporting rifles, prime european walnut with 32 line cut checkering. All calibers from .22/250 to .458. Steel grip caps and thick red rubber recoil pads. The 1979 Whitworth Express Rifle African Series came in calibers 7mmRM, 300WM, 375H&H, and 458 WM. with an optional deluxe fitted hard case for rifle, scope, sling, ammo, cleaning gear covered in heavy hand-stitched leather.
Hope this help a bit.
Bob

Okay, I have read all the posts and I think I have a good idea of what I have here, maybe. Can someone more familiar than me with Whitworths give me the low down on what this is? Strangely, the barrel is just marked with the caliber (spelled Calibre) and a stamp BNP with a crown over it (same BNP with a crown stamp on the receiver). On the other side there is a stamp that appears to be two B's or two R's on each side of a T. This stamp is on the receiver and the barrel. There is nothing on the rifle other than the butt pad that says Whitworth, Interarms, or anything else. Thanks for the help.

Mike, if you look under the receiver ring, it is marked Whitworth. A nice one too, beautiful stock. Did you buy it at the show?

Yes, got it yesterday from a fellow on the last row of the show from Wisconsin. If I told you I paid $650 for it would you try to sell me some ocean front property in Arizona or is that a decent deal? I hate to admit it but I really had no sense of whether that was a good deal or not. The gun is new and unfired.

$650? With the scope too? You did good one way or the other. I was at the show early Saturday, I didn't see it, you must have jumped on it. I did snag a very nice Remington 30 Express for $450.

No, the scope is mine. This fellow was literally on the last row before the doors to the parking lot. Nice to know that I did not get smoked.

I saw a P17 that had been sportized for $450 (in like 30-338 or something like that), then went looking for it again and couldn't find it, story of my life. Was the Remington one that had a new barrel installed on it? I thought I remembered seeing one with a barrel that was lighter than the receiver. I really like the Model 30s. There is a beautiful one on Gun Broker right now.

Mike, BobC and I looked at that gun yesterday and were scratching our heads over it. I have never seen any MkX that had no receiver markings of any kind before, that and the British proofs which have not appeared since the 80's, to my knowledge. And the bottom metal is the later cross bolt style and the stock is for that also. It adds up to a mystery rifle ! If I were going to hazard a guess, I would say that I had heard that some rifles were assembled out of left over parts when Interarms folded, I believe Sarco had purchased all the inventory. Anyway, you did not go wrong with your purchase, if it had old style bottom metal, I would be telling this tale! Lee.
P.S. What are the date #'s on the rear receiver ring in front of the bolt?

I think you need to go back and give him some more money. Or send the rifle to me and I will live with the guilt.

I was puzzled by the stock mounted swivel, not barrel band. sure a nice piece of wood, though. It was a lotta gun for the price.
Bob

quote:

MJines: I saw a P17 that had been sportized for $450 (in like 30-338 or something like that), then went looking for it again and couldn't find it, story of my life. Was the Remington one that had a new barrel installed on it?

If you are looking for a sporterized Remington 1917, I can send you pics of a very nice one I have that I'll sell for $175, not a lousy bubba job. Here's the 30 Express, about 98% original blue, refinished stock, I don't know why, it's nice too:

Lee440,

On the right side of the receiver, back by the receiver sight screws, it is stamped, 1275. On the front of the receiver, on the right side, it has a circle or oval shaped stamp with something in the circle or oval but it is not clear, then the serial number B105728, then the RTR or BTB stamp. On the right side of the barrel it has another one of the circle/oval stamps with something in it, then the RTR or BTB stamp, then the letter N.

Are you saying that I have purchased a Frankstein rifle? Friday was the 13th, Halloween is two weeks away and I have purchased the Frankenstein rifle, hope this is not an omen.

Forrest,

Send me the pics, I just might be interested.

mjines@kingwoodcable.com

Mike

For what it is worth, the stamp that I could not figure out whether it was BTB or RTR, I believe is BTB. Not sure the significance of that, but that is what it appears to be.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
For what it is worth, the stamp that I could not figure out whether it was BTB or RTR, I believe is BTB. Not sure the significance of that, but that is what it appears to be.

You might be interested in this thread about Whitworth's and their markings on NitroExpress.Com.

Good reference Charles.
Quoting 4seventy's post on NitroExpress.com:

"If a Whitworth Express Rifle has the following...

1...Whitworth banner on top of front receiver
2...Second recoil lug attached to barrel
3...Front and rear sights attached with screws
4...Serial No in the 200,000 up range
5...Rear bridge date stamp RH side in the 80's ie xx8x
6...V with a what looks like a crown above it on RH side of action and barrel

...there is a good chance that it was NOT assembled in England!

If on the other hand a Whitworth Express Rifle has...

1...Nothing on top of front receiver
2...No second recoil lug
3...Front and rear sights attached by SOLDERING
4...Serial No in the 100,000 range
5...Rear bridge date stamp RH side in the 70's ie xx7x

There is a good chance that it WAS assembled in England!"

And as he states, "the proof is in the proofs, no British proofs, not assembled in Manchester".

Using the criteria posted by 4seventy on the other website, sounds like this rifle was assembled in England. Everything seems to match up, the BNP stamp, the rear bridge date in the 70's, the 100,000 serial number, the lack of a Whitworth stamp, etc. Only thing that does not match up is the rear sight is not soldered on, but is mounted with screws. Either made in England, or made to look like it was made in England. Tonight I will take the barrel out of the stock and see if there is anything on the bottom of the barrel and whether there is a second recoil lug. Gee, sure seems like these would not involve this level of detective work to sort out.

The floorplate release and the wood(relieved for crossbolt floorplate release) point to a replacement somewhere along the line. That style did not appear until the late 90's. Either way, still well worth the money.

Well I removed the barrel and action from the stock. The underside of the barrel is stamped:

.458"MAG2.50"
19.5 TONS PER []"

The [] is a box. However, it also has a second recoil lug installed in the underside of the barrel and bedded in the stock.

So, its sort of like a hyena, it has the markings/characteristics of both a rifle assembled in England (e.g., all the proof marks match up with a gun assembled in England, serial number in the 100,000 range, rear bridge date stamp in the 70's, nothing on the top front of the receiver) and one not assembled in England (second recoil lug, rear sight mounted with screws and bottom metal with button magazine release). My position is that it is a one-of-a-kind item that is worth twice what I paid for it.

OK guys< I hate to bring up old subjects but....

I recently picked up a rifle that I dont know if its a true whitworth and am hoping you guys can help me out.

On the left side of the ring it says whitworth and on top of the ring it says whitworth with an oval around it. On the left side of teh action it says the typical markX stuff (alaxandria, va....Interarms....manchester england), on the tange (left side) it says made in yugoslavia.

Thanks
Joel

Sounds to me like you have a Whitworth.......even regular Mark Xs are good rifles so I wouldn't concern myself too much.

Mac, there is another one here in Houston, Identical to Fla3006 in .375. It belonged to John Wooters and is an unmolested original with identical proofs and the castle on the barrel. No doubt whatsoever about its provenance. It is owned by a friend of mine that I have been begging to sell it to me! Until I saw it, I was not convinced that they were assembled in England, but the proof is in the proofs! Lee.

my 458 has the castle and the proof marks says made in england on the barrell and whitworth express rifle on the top of the action next to the bolt on the left raceway top but no witworth in the oval on the front ring

WTG, Mike!

Looks like my 375 H&H Whitworth!

Hey Guys,

New to this forum, I thought I would post pics of my Whitworth in 300 Win with english proof marks, imported by interarms. The date code is 1177 and is proofed for 19 tons in England.It is the only 300 Whitworth I have seen, but they do exist.Hope this helps with any questions you guys had on the calibers available.

Johnson

Johnson, welcome to the forums. Wish my Whitworths had buttstocks like yours!

Johnson, that's a beautiful rifle!

I have a pair of these, the highest priced one i paid $375 for six or seven years ago, th e other one I paid $240 for 20 years ago. I wish they were still producing them today as they were the right weight and features and a good Mauser action. I have never seen one or any other .375 that wouldn't shoot 1MOA either.

FLA3006 PM sent. Packy

My 458 is 8.5 lbs sans scope, unloaded.
i have a CZ 550 "custom' safari classic 505, but the fit and finish leave a lot to be desired. Stock cracked after 50 rounds, needed an action job; had a 25" barrel, too unweildy for me.
the whitworth has a much smoother action, better wood, cost half of the cz, and is altogether better put together.

quote:

Originally posted by studdog:
Thanks Ramrod. That's the rifle I'm looking for. Do you know what they weigh without scope? I guessed 7.5 lbs. in 375. Perhaps 8.5 lbs in 458? How do Whitworths compare to the current CZ's in Fit?finish? studog

I'll throw in one more bit of trivia. In the 80's, I was doing quite a few customs, and bought a lot of actions and barreled actions. Due to price, I got a lot of them from a dealer in Massachusetts. (As an aside, he was the only person besides Brownell who actually had Ruger No. 1 barreled actions, and at the time they cost less than half of the completed rifle.) Anyway, I purchased an Interarms Whitworth 375 barreled action. It had all the Whitworth and English markings, and an incredible deep highly polished blue compared to the regular finish. It did not, however, have the whitworth sights when it arrived. The barrel was smooth with no holes. I custom stocked it in English and it made a great rifle. Wish I still had it.

One other oddity I bought, which I still have, was a Mark X single shot action. It is a copy of the old FN single shot, with a completely smooth reciever bottom, and a narrow, solid floor plate with only a trigger slot. It is extremely stiff, and one of the most accurate rifles I have ever owned, even if it is a 98. It is barreled in 6-284 and will shoot .25" groups all day. If I remember, serial number is a two or three digit number. I have never seen another one, and suspect they made only a handful. I don't think they were ever made as rifles, only actions.

Mike:

Do the proof marks of your Whitworth have a circle with two letters and a numeral in it?

For you guys that say you have British proved Whitworths, after 1971, all guns really proved in the UK bear a date code unique to the proof house (which is NOT the 4 digit number on the action). So, if none were built before 1972, any British proved Whitworth will have it. Birmingham's appears either as crossed swords with two letters and a numeral in the angles (to 1974, and 1985 to present), or a circle containing two letters and a numeral (1975 to 1984). London's date code (1972-present) appears as the letters "LP" over the last two digits of the year.

If the date code is absent, that would be strong evidence that the British proof marks are fake.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
"If a Whitworth Express Rifle has the following...

6...V with a what looks like a crown above it on RH side of action and barrel

...there is a good chance that it was NOT assembled in England!

And as he states, "the proof is in the proofs, no British proofs, not assembled in Manchester".

Yes, the proof is in the proofs, as long as they're legit.

The "Crown" over "V" marks I've seen on a few of these are definitely NOT British proof marks. While the British used the crown over V "view" mark for 300 plus years, the 1954 Rules of Proof eliminated it from their marks for good, and they haven't used it since 1 February, 1955. All Interarms Whitworth Mauser rifles were built since then.

London used the crown over V "view" mark (it was never a definitive proof mark) while Birmingham used crown over BV. The 1954 rules eliminated both, and it was at this time that Birmingham replaced their crown over BP definitive mark with Crown over BNP, effective 2/1/55.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

After reading all the stuff about what Whitworths were put together in England and which ones were not I now know that there were NO Whitworths put together in England. They were all put together in a third world country where they had a complete collection of English proof stamps. They indiscriminately stamped them up and sent them out!

I have a Whitworth " I think" Like Crusher says with the words "Whitworth Express" Lengthwise ( paralell) on the top of the action. Is this a true Whitworth?? Its a 458...
This is a good read.