I have never hunted D-Game but have a friend who has many times in Africa. He says that a softer/lead front bullet is generally used for the first shot on buffalo then solids are used for all follow-up shots. I got to wondering, Why not use Barnes Triple Shocks for all shots? You have the best of both worlds most of the time. If the petals don't open, as does happen with Barnes sometimes, you still have a solid.

You need a solid to reach the vitals if the buff turns his back side to you, witch It normally does when running after the first shot.
The rumen can stop an expanding bullet very easily.All that grass is packed up very dens.

And then there are elephants...

Expanding copper bullets are an exvelelnt choice .. though there should be at least one solid IN THE GUN ...

BZig bore X type bullets blow petals off, they RARELY don't open, as that is a smaller bore characteristic based off surface area ... only at extremely low speeds do big bore X bullets not open .. and sheered off bases still go a mile

Terminal performance is the criteria for bullet choice. It is dependent on the particular game and impact velocity. A slow TSX usually isn't a good choice.

Ganyana had an article covering the subject in Rifle magazine around a year ago.

I'm thinking North Fork Softpoint followed by North Fork Cup points for buff when they finally come out in .510 caliber, jeffeosso, what do you think?

Chuck

Chuck,
I am a fan of a slight different shaped X bullet ... should be 1.75E, but truncated, flatishnose, 3 or driving bands, and everything except the bands should be .002 smaller than bore ... since bit bores and slow (they open at 1400fps ... that's about 300 yards for a 500NE) aren't exactly a problem .. I've seen XLC with teh metals sheared off go FIVE FEET after sheering off the petals .. Chris shot an eland in the hip (to stop it) from 187 yards with a 470 mbogo ... hit femur, when FEET past that ...

I am a believer ..

and even more of a believer in BIG holes .. a .510 Solid is nearly as big as a 375 opened up 1.4 times (nearly, i can count the .015) ...

Hit it with a big bullet, that is STILL a big bullet if sheared off, and it will keep on going .. except, perhaps, elephants ... but I would rather buy a new car or 10 acres than shoot an elephant

quote:

Originally posted by Mafunyane:
You need a solid to reach the vitals if the buff turns his back side to you, witch It normally does when running after the first shot.
The rumen can stop an expanding bullet very easily.All that grass is packed up very dens.

Mafunyane, no dis-respect intended, but that was my point. With the Barnes T-S, you have a solid. Do you not?

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
And then there are elephants...

JPK..............................what about the elephants??????

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Expanding copper bullets are an exvelelnt choice .. though there should be at least one solid IN THE GUN ...

BZig bore X type bullets blow petals off, they RARELY don't open, as that is a smaller bore characteristic based off surface area ... only at extremely low speeds do big bore X bullets not open .. and sheered off bases still go a mile

Jeff, again that is my point. No matter how many petals you shear off the bullet, it is still a solid!

quote:

Jeff, again that is my point. No matter how many petals you shear off the bullet, it is still a solid!

Yeah, but it's a solid with a lot lower sectional density and less penetration. Also, you can't count on the petals shearing off.

Use them on deer, pigs, nilgai and eland ... figure out what they do and dont. ...

basically, once you cross the .400 line, EVERYTHING you "know" about guns is bassawkwards!

Rae,

A high SD Tripple Shock or similar monolithic HP, like the 500 grain 458 or 400 grain 416, is very unstable and does not have the penetration of a FN solid, or even a RN solid.

I have recovered 500 grain 458's base forward and the petals sheared off from being work hardened twice (once each direction) w very little penetration and way off course.

I much prefer an expanding bonded bullet like the NF soft point.

And a truncated cone FN solid for elephant.

Andy

Andy,
I don't mean to be a smart-ass, but I've seen and heard of many medium bore Barnes t-shocks bullets tumbling and veering off coarse. I have personally seen a upper 160 B&C whitetail buck that nearly had it's G-2 shot off when the bullet entered the shoulder perpindicular to the deer.

What do you think makes difference in bullet design. Is it the malleable lead front on the expanding? I guess the lead will still maintain trajectory path even when it hits bone and the solid pointed copper just glances off to a new angle? Explain your thoughts please.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:

quote:

Jeff, again that is my point. No matter how many petals you shear off the bullet, it is still a solid!

Yeah, but it's a solid with a lot lower sectional density and less penetration. Also, you can't count on the petals shearing off.

Doesn't a expanding bullet suffer from the same thing? And if the petals don't shear off, it's back to the original sectional density and is a true solid.

If pedals sheer off, the bullet loses weight and the SD will thus change. Once the bullet expands, its SD will change as the cross sectional area changes.

The triple shocks have been shown (mostly by Saeed) to be fantastic at all angles on buffalo. The large diameter TSXs don't behave like their medium bore brethren, the big bore pills tend to expand less and penetrate more, often failing to open up until the last few inches of a hog.

John

Thanks Jeffeosso, hunting trophy elephant isn't in my future either unless I win the lottery. I can swing a really good cape buffalo hunt in a few years and maybe if I'm lucky a kodiak brown bear hunt as well. At least I get to hunt elk every year within a couple of hours driving distance.

Thanks again,

Chuck

Chuck,
IMNSHO, if barnes bullets looked more, in profile, like a hornady XTP bullet, (not THAT big a hole) and the same length as a conventional bullet, then you can drive them a bit faster .. but, seriously, 450gr at 2300 in a 458 or 475 will do the trick .. the shape makes the bullet shorter AND more flat bearing surface to force them open!

The question was not on first shot but on x bullet
(not solid)for follow up shots.And here you can't go on ifs and buts.You need a bullet that will reach the vitals from any angle. Especially on a rapidly fleeing buffalo.
There is nothing wrong with any of the premium soft's for the first shot.But follow shots I would prefer a solid.

Only my 2 cents.

Rae,

The 500 grain X bullet is about 1.6 inches long. T Shok even longer.

If the petals do not expand its a flat base spitzer, which is designed to "tumble." (The center of gravity does not coincide w the center of form.)

When it does expand, it is so long it is still unstable and work hardens the 4 petals once as it expands and again as it turns over 180 degrees.



And here is an X bullet base forward w petals broken off. Even in dense medium like lagrandge stop box. Not a good sign!



I will post some pics when I get a chance. PS This is the "base" of the bullet!

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:


The triple shocks have been shown (mostly by Saeed) to be fantastic at all angles on buffalo.

John

I believe Saeed was using the original Barnes X, not the TSX, before he started using his own Walterhog bullets. IIRC

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
a softer/lead front bullet is generally used for the first shot on buffalo then solids are used for all follow-up shots. I got to wondering, Why not use Barnes Triple Shocks for all shots?

George Hoffman said their was no need for solids on Buff with bullets like the SAF available(IIRC). And George had done that Rodeo a time or two.

Shooting wood sand ect has no bearing on how a bullet well preform in live flesh.

Its fun and interisting put thats all.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:


The triple shocks have been shown (mostly by Saeed) to be fantastic at all angles on buffalo.

John

I believe Saeed was using the original Barnes X, not the TSX, before he started using his own Walterhog bullets. IIRC

Jason, you may be right on that one, memory getting fuzzy these days, but he still recommends the TSX's on buff. I wish I had the resources to hunt as much buffalo as he has.

John