quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
A woodleigh softpoint will wad up into a big smoking ball of lead in 16 inches, dumping a ton of energy in the process.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
In my experience woodleigh solids at 2000 fps don't penetrate well at all, but dump alot of energy. The larger the diameter of the bullet, generally the lower the penetration all other things being equal. So Whats new? Michael has shown some pretty impressive penetration data for the .600Ok with various loads and I'd trust his results more than this guys. A woodleigh softpoint will wad up into a big smoking ball of lead in 16 inches, dumping a ton of energy in the process. If he was using the 2300fps load even the woodleigh 900 gr solid would go through 23 inches of paper. If you want penetration in the .600Ok, try a brass 750 gr Crayola tip at 2700fps.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
OK, all this talk and no terminals recently have the "Natives" on the warpath, and restless eh? Well, medical leave is over and we are back in the shooting business here! Of course I have been building up over the last few days shooting small bores, 458 and .500. Getting back into shooting shape!

Talk about big bore trauma---Well here it is;



I was trying to work my way to the magic test velocity that I had targeted. 900 gr at 2150 to 2200 fps. I had not quite made it on this one. But as you can see at 68 inches, what does it matter?

Stepping up a full 10 grs of powder got me exactly where I wanted to be. This will be the load that I test all the bullets that CCMDoc sent along with the rifle. Now the others have quite a chore competing with this I am afraid? We will see over the next few days.






We have never had a NonCon penetrate so deep! As I recall the deepest was one of the 460 .500 NonCons at 2400 fps or so driving to 37 inches. I did not think 40+ was even possible. There it is. The one bullet lost stability and tumbled at 43-44 inches, backwards at 45 inches. It had driven dead straight to that point. The other, 43 inches straight. Trauma incredible, blades sheared perfect and went to as far as 12 inches!

If you can't do it with this--You don't need to be doing it at all!

Over the next few days I will be doing more work with the mighty 600!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
The "myth" and "reputation" of the Ultra Bores (585-620) have always been "Over Blown" you might say. Until the BBW#13 these were never that impressive to me. But it's not the various cartridges, it's not the wonderfully big rifles they are chambered in---It's the damned sorry ass bullets that were available for them!!!! Today, look at what you have available? Barnes has brought on some good Ultra Bores, but that is about it. Woodleigh FMJs are useless, and not to mention the fact, ugly as hell. The softs are great, but very very soft. Impact velocity of 2000 fps will turn them flat, limiting penetration on buffalo. Lion, big hammers--so don't forget the actual use of a particular bullet needs to be matched to game sought! Good for one thing--not good for another.

The BBW#13s--Solid/NonCon-changes all that for the Ultra Bores--they even impress me seriously, and performance is the thing that impresses me, not bore size, not mine is bigger than yours, Performance is the only thing that counts with me. G.D.--These things Perform!!!

If you recall back when Sam and I were testing the 577 Nitro and the BBW#13s in his rifle. I had NEVER had an Ultra Bore penetrate the first box, into the second box of test medium. Was not possible. We tested, forget the velocity exactly, but Sam looked and we had a pass through. I never doubt Sam, but I thought he was joking, I had to look myself! It did--I said it must have found a VOID in the mix. Fluke I said. Until it did it on the other side of the test medium as well!!!! Then I said--It Ain't No Fluke!!!!! It's Real--and I really started having some respect for 577 at that point, which I had never had before.

Now I failed to mention one more very good bullet out there, and that is the S&H bullet, Agent J himself made. This is a hard hitting, drive straight design and I have some to test right along with the others. Now, do not expect it to drive as deep and the #13--it's meplat is much larger, I will measure exact, but I guess 75% meplat right now. But do remember, it's not all about depth of penetration--it's about straight line penetration and adequate depth. I would much rather have a bullet that consistently drives straight to 50 inches than one that can make it to 60 inches but is 4 inches off course by that time! Agent J bullet will drive straight, of that I have no doubt! It also has a perfectly rounded off radius on the meplat, which we have discovered is needed and desired--Agent J knew this before we did of course, and all the bullets I have seen from him have this attribute.

The Ultra Bores have never had it this good before. When Sam took his 577 Nitro across the pond for buffalo/elephant last year, I stated many times that the African Continent had never before seen a more capable 577 Nitro, ever! Of course, loaded with BBW#13s! I was correct as well!



Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Yes, I wanted also to get some data on the BBW#13 .620s at low velocity. Some were much lower velocity than I had targeted.

Here I was actually targeting 1600 fps or so, I had 1487 fps and the results were excellent.




The matching 825 NonCon at extreme low velocity, still shears!!!!!!!




Bumping velocity up with the 900 BBW#13 to 1700 fps at the muzzle was extreme again!




At any velocity you want to work with these bullets you are in dandy shape, make it light on yourself!

This is VERY VERY excellent news for ALL 600 Nitro guys! Pick the velocity that works best in your rifle and go with it! You have enough bullet to accomplish your mission whatever velocity you choose!

This will conclude all work right now with the BBW#13s. We have extreme low velocity tests and higher velocity, working velocity of 2150 to 2200 fps--plenty believe me! So now I will continue on to test the other bullets Doc sent to me, all with the same powder charges as the 2150-2200 fps loads with the BBW#13s. We can see how they stack up, both velocity and terminals with the exact same load. That's next!!!!! Coming to you soon as I can!


Quickly to summarize things:

825 BBW#13 NonCon--1441 fps--19 inches Shears
825 BBW#13 NonCon--1914 fps--23 Inches
825 BBW#13 NonCon--2201 fps--43 Inches

900 BBW#13 Solid--1487 fps--52 Inches
900 BBW#13 Solid--1702 fps--61 Inches
900 BBW#13 Solid--1839 fps--64 Inches
900 BBW#13 Solid--1895 fps--64 Inches
900 BBW#13 Solid--2010 fps--68 Inches
900 BBW#13 Solid--2161 fps--76 Inches

All of these more than enough to accomplish any mission embarked upon!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Michael- Top loads with the .600ok and 900gr bullets can be had basically with a case load of IMR 4350.Use a 24 inch drop tube and max OAL. With the 900gr bullets you had better hold on. The fastest guns have three groove rifling and 26 inch barrels. My Craola tip 750s should scream out of the tube with that powder charge. In my crude testing the penetration was very impressive.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Edited post…

Rob

Thank you for the info, insight, and the 600 OK, a hammer of a cartridge, no doubt about it. For those willing to make the sacrifices it is a manageable field operations tool as well. But it does take some commitment I believe. Like everything we do in shooting there are compromises that have to be made.

There is one thing however, there is no compromise in performance with the 600 OverKill with good bullets! As we have seen with the BBW#13s for sure.

I finished my tests yesterday afternoon with the 600 OverKill. No, I did not raise the velocities to full potential of the cartridge. There were several reasons for this. I contend personally that 2150 to 2200 fps is an excellent velocity to run these big 700-900 gr hammers of Thor! Beyond that is not really needed for anything elephant, hippo, buffalo, and even old T'Rex! All the test work was done without the muzzle brake. Doing the test work indoors I have LOT"S of expensive lighting, that I would just as soon not blow out with muzzle blast of the beast! So honestly while I might could have handled some more velocity from the bench without a brake, I just as soon not. And most certainly not very many of them.

All the heavier but not full potential loads were 170 gr of WW 760, Federal 215 Primers of course. I did not try and match velocity and have all bullets running at 2150 fps, they fell in where they were and that is that.

Normally I am always happy to take requests and do whatever, but this time this test is completed. HEH.... I have to get moving on some other projects, and, and, and, ! LOL....

I am going to have a separate post for each bullet test done with one exception that I will talk about below this photo.

Here was yesterdays Lineup



The one bullet I am going to discuss here before moving on is the GSC bullet. This bullet came in at 750 grs, but .615 caliber, not .620???? Not sure why. I loaded it and attempted to test anyway. One shot hit top of the box, completely sideways. I had suspected instability, so I had laid several heavy catalogs and books on top of the box to keep them in, maybe. The bullet hitting high and sideways ripped the entire top catalogs off the box, sent them flying and shredded all over the back of the range. Two lights were blown out, I can't say why, the bullet did not hit the lights, no sign of holes, fragments, nothing, just blown bulbs and broken glass everywhere. After cleanup I never found any sign of where the bullet had hit anything, not in the catalogs, no holes in the back, top or sides, that I could see easily! Where did it go? I will probably find it at some point, but right now I don't have a clue. I declined to shoot the second one on that basis. The velocity was low, being .615 I suppose lot's of gas slipped by, at only 1996 fps.

Next;

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Let's look at our solids in the lineup first, end up with the soft.

I am not sure who or what this big 900 gr Copper bullet is. I am sure some of you know, and can comment. Now please, whoever made this don't be upset as I am going to give my opinion on improvements that could be made on all of them, regardless.

This bullet has a very good meplat, 65% best I can measure by stamping and measuring, which I do not claim to be exact, but best we have been able to come up with.

Good nose profile, good meplat. A radius meplat would improve performance I think. And I think I would have added some bands to the bottom end to reduce bearing surface.

It performed very good, passing completely through the first box into box #2. A bit off course right at the end.



Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Next the "Crayola" bullet as Rob calls it. I assume Rob is making these. I am not going to candy coat anything, I did not expect this bullet to do well because of the smallish meplat, 56% as I measured. In private, I stated as much. But honestly, I was wrong, this little 720 gr bullet and it's smallish meplat performed FAR better than I expected it to do! As you can see one to 61 inches dead straight, then veering at the end of penetration. The other to 65 only 2 inches off course. 2 inches off course in 65 inches, passing through the 1 st box is not much. It only just did so and as best I could tell was also dead straight to 60 or slightly better. The one shot that exited the top was not that far off course at the end, it was a slightly high shot into the box to begin with. I found where it bounced off the back of the range, was found in the floor, back at the FRONT of the first box. I think maybe it wanted another go at that box? HEH HEH.

I think this was very good performance for a bullet with this meplat size!




Couple of things, sharp radius and sharp base. Maybe a radius on the meplat, and bevel on the base would help loading the bullet, and help penetration as well. Overall however, I can't complain about the performance at all.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Now for the S&H Solid, with Sharc fins, and big 72% meplat. I had little doubt as to how this big meplat solid would perform, but figured for sure that penetration would be limited because of the large meplat. Wrong again! Just when you think you can make a guess on something....... Oh Well!

This thing hammered through the first box into the second, dead straight the entire way. Agent J has done a superb job with this bullet. Nice radius, bevel base, easy to work with, and great performance, not much else to say about that, the results speak......

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
This brings us to the 900 gr Kodiak Bonded bullet. I was not very pleased with this, and to be honest I did suspect this sort of performance. I have tested and worked with other Kodiaks in the past, and got much the same performance. One of these totally broke up and went to pieces and the other gave nearly perfect performance. This is the same as what I tested other Kodiaks, some great, some break. Now, which one is the next one going to be????

Not a chance I am willing to work with. One just can never predict if this bullet will work or not? As far as I am concerned they have a quality control issue, and this is a failure, or at least a 50% failure.

Now you say "How is this different from a NonCon?" It is not predictable performance. While this core did penetrate deep, there is nothing to say the next one will? It's lead, it looses shape! No doubt about it, most animals hit with this are going to hurt bad. But being not predictable who knows what might happen on the next one?

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Hey Michael,

How many of us have used 577NE (or any .585) and 600NE (or any .620) CEBs on dangerous game?

Sam
Don
Me

Anyone else? I'd like to get a sense of how many, if any were recovered and the game on which they were used.

The only CEB #13 I've ever recovered had traversed from elephant occiput to opposite temporal bone laying just under the skin.





Just curious as to how many of these "ultra-bore" rounds have been used on "ultra-game" and the results

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
As shooters and hunters we make many choices as we move forward. What rifle? What Cartridge? What apparel do I need for the next hunt? What Powder to use for my loads? How much velocity do I need?

However, all combined it comes down to the "BULLET" we choose that can and "sometimes" does decide whether the entire affair is either a great success, with shared smiles, back slaps, and handshakes, and most important, that Ice Cold Celebration BEER after the grand event--or a miserable, worrisome, thought provoking, failure!

Come now, really, what would you choose?





If you are a double sorta chap, what would you choose?

Michael

Jim
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne

quote:

Originally posted by Mingbogo:
Damn Jim very impressive data!

Jim
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by Mingbogo:
Damn Jim very impressive data!

Thank you - but my efforts were only pulling from the TBP thread... The true "Thanks" really belongs to Michael McCourry and Sam Rose those individuals who provided bullets and rifle (CCMDoc) for the testing because that's where all the effort was accomplished...

CCMDoc

quote:

Originally posted by Pyzda:
Copper is heavier material than brass so the same type of bullet made of copper should be shorter.

Just wonder how the plasticity of a bullet made of a free machining (leaded) copper would compare with a pure copper bullet?

I may be wrong, but I still much prefer a (deformed) mushroomed bullet in one piece, rather than a bullet that breaks into 6-7 smaller pieces.

Pyzda

quote:

even if Michael DOES look a little like Cliff Clavin

quote:

I may be wrong, but I still much prefer a (deformed) mushroomed bullet in one piece, rather than a bullet that breaks into 6-7 smaller pieces.

Jim
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
My goal though has never been maximal penetration, but rather max energy dump! -Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Pyzda:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
My goal though has never been maximal penetration, but rather max energy dump! -Rob

Cross L does this mean that Rob is WRONG too?

Pyzda

Jim
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne

quote:

even if Michael DOES look a little like Cliff Clavin